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Steady the Ship

Discussion in 'Deeper Fellowship' started by Carl Emerson, Sep 22, 2021.

  1. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    Hey - keep a firm grip on the Wheel.

    Life has storms and Covid is a big wave that we need to head straight into to be safe.

    Get vaccinated - don't get distracted by conspiracies. God works through medical science for our safety.

    Fear not.

    Thank Him for safety.

    The storm will pass.

    Jesus is in control.
     
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  2. Davorah

    Davorah Ora et Labora

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    AMEN!
     
  3. Jake Arsenal

    Jake Arsenal Member

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    Do not put your hope into the storm passing, rather, trust Jesus to bring you through the storm. My help is in the Lord, who made heaven and earth.

    A hodgepodge of WYC and KJV from Nahum 3:and of the slain multitude, and of grievous falling, and there is no end of corpses. Yea, they shall altogether fall, or shall stumble, over all the bodies, Because of the multitude of the whoredoms of the wellfavoured harlot, the mistress of witchcrafts, that selleth nations through her whoredoms, and families through her witchcrafts.
     
  4. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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    Brother, those who refrain from vaccination are not all "distracted by conspiracies." Lumping them together under this one characteristic, as you have, is what the racist does with groups toward which he is prejudiced. I know you're not a racist, so I am a bit astonished by your enormous, implicit over-generalization about the vaccine-hesitant.

    There are, in fact, very good, data-driven reasons not to be vaccinated - reasons the pop-media and the political and medical Establishment are bursting a blood vessel trying to deny and obscure. Here are some links you might want to peruse:

    www.covid19criticalcare.com
    www.pandata.org
    Great Barrington Declaration and Petition

    These three sites offer hard data, not just defensive, angry rhetoric (though, there is some of this rhetoric, I'm afraid), in support of at least a fully-informed, careful analysis of the cost-benefit ratio of vaccination. These websites offer links to actual medical research abstracts and explanations from medical experts, physician-clinicians, as well as more academic researchers, all of whom offer very good reason to be highly skeptical of what the Establishment, medical and otherwise, are telling us, both about the virus and the vaccines.

    Amen! But fear can drive a person to be vaccinated just as much as it might drive another person not to be vaccinated. Fear isn't, of course, necessarily a bad thing; it keeps us from doing stupid things, right? I don't pick up a rattlesnake because I'm afraid of its venom; I don't poke a big, angry bear with a stick because I'm afraid it'll tear me to bits; I don't stick my head into a roaring fire because I'm afraid of the damage and pain it'll cause me. This sort of fear is, generally, totally appropriate. The fear that God in His word tells us to avoid is the unreasoning, careless sort of fear that forgets God is in ultimate control, that worries over things beyond one's control, that crowds God out of one's view. This sort of fear you are quite right to urge your brothers and sisters in Christ to forsake.

    Amen x 2!
     
  5. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    Aiki...

    I am watching the Body of Christ dividing very deeply over this issue.

    Some are so extreme as to believe the vaccination is evil and those who partake loose salvation as it is claimed to be 'pre-curser' to the Mark.

    These are good folk who are sucked away from reality by social media.

    The suggestion that ordinary folk can become armchair scientists and correctly ascertain truth from fiction from the internet is folly.

    I have just made a careful reply to a close friend which I will post for those interested.
    ==============================================
    Hi (Name withdrawn),


    I have taken some time to lay out my position with reasons.

    I refer to key scriptures that I take seriously and focus my remaining time on earth accordingly.

    I conclude there is a choice – to be responding to what the world does, or to respond to what Jesus wants to do in the world.

    A good example of this is recorded in Acts 4

    In verse 17 freedom of speech is made illegal. (this would be read by many today, as a sign of being in the end times)


    However the early believers did not protest or leave the district or start to operate underground.


    27 summarizes the threats in their prayer but most importantly they saw these threats were not against them but against Jesus Himself.


    28 signifies total trust in God being in control and no fear of what man (or the Govt.) might be planning.


    29 they hold ground and trust God to act.


    32 they looked after each-other.


    33 they continued to demonstrate the resurrection power of Christ in the Spirit.


    However Jesus had taught them to render unto Caesar what was Caesar's - so they would not cease to pay taxes or meet civil requirements.


    Peter also stresses this in 1 Pet 2:13-15


    Was the Government of the time corrupt ? Sure was, but Jesus even befriended the tax collectors.


    What this means is that pietistic withdrawal has no place in our service to Jesus and nor does rebelling against civil law.


    All this was happening when the early believers were expecting Jesus second coming to occur during their lifetime.


    However according to Jesus the game only changes when important conditions are met.


    Matt 24 records Jesus teaching on this concerning events prior to His second coming.


    Verse 9 has not yet happened.


    Verse 14 is not complete.


    Verse 15 is Key... a single human individual demanding he be worshiped by all inhabitants on earth and holding the power to regulate all trade on earth.... This clearly has not happened.


    Only then does Jesus indicate a time to flee and not stand in verse 16. In the meantime it is business as usual – and there is no panic or place for fear.


    So what we see happening today does not qualify although various rulers throughout history have had the smell of the AOD but not all the conditions outlined in Matt 24 by Jesus were met.


    There is no doubt that there is a spirit of fear associated with conspiracies.

    Isaiah 8:12 clearly teaches not to believe or be in fear of conspiracies, otherwise He will no longer be our sanctuary.

    It is a choice to fear God or fear what others perceive is going on in the world.


    So why has Covid become so divisive?

    Yes there is corruption at all levels of human endeavour but this should not threaten our peace.

    God is ultimately in control – He will not stand back and see His faithful wiped out by any means.

    He is our sanctuary if we do not fear.



    He will also guide the steps of those who seek Him even to keep them safe from coming in contact with life threatening diseases. Even if they do, like Paul they will shake them off. (Act 28:3)

    After all who determines the time of your homecoming?

    We have seen this already – a close friend of ours missed working at a covid filled house by one day.


    Does that mean we refuse official recommendations to control the outbreak? Not according to Peter quoted above.



    Then the contentious issue...


    The “vaccination” (not what we understood such to be)

    This has become more divisive than Covid itself.



    If we ignore the conspiracy theories, researches acted quickly to curb the outbreak and fast tracked the process, weighing the risk but with the experience of 30 or so years of research already done, presented a best possible solution at the time – to modify a tiny protein sequence to reduce symptoms and increase immunity.


    Was it a silver bullet – no.


    Has it reduced deaths and human suffering – yes.


    Has the management of it been without corruption – likely not.


    Has it provided draconian opportunities for oppressive Governments – yes.


    So we were given the decision to jab or not.



    Risks weighed both ways.

    How did we decide ???



    Back to the anointing that teaches us (1 Jn 2:27) a collective anointing among the mature.

    We sought out folks we had closely fellowshipped with for 35 years plus and shared with their wisdom.

    We took council and waited for His confirming peace.



    Each stands before God (Rom 14:1-4)

    None should condemn another for acting on the faith they were given.



    Finally I urge seeking Him rather than searching Online.


    Don't focus on what the world does, but respond to what Jesus wants us to do in the world.


    I have spent some time putting this together and it comes with sincere concern for understanding and love.

    Blessings,



    Carl Emerson.
    =======================================
     
  6. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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    As am I.

    Sometimes, division is warranted. But not in this case.

    There have always been such folk within the Church, sowing unnecessary contention and division. These, Scripture says, are carnal and immature, serving themselves rather than God. (1 Corinthians 3:3; Romans 16:17; Jude 1:18-19, etc.)

    Maybe. Some, I think, are not "good folk" at all, particularly when they make a medical choice a spiritual matter and a cause for division.

    The "sucking away" by media happens among vaccinated and unvaccinated alike.

    I think it behooves believers to be "good Bereans" and go right to the source as often as possible, studying the hard data directly as much as possible and then going to trusted sources for clarification and explanation of the data they don't understand. But this requires effort - research and careful contemplation - which many Christians today eschew in favor of simply being told what to think by others. Often, this amounts to nothing more than embracing the fallacy of Appeal to Authority. In my experience so far, those who attempt to rip into me for refusing to be vaccinated have almost total ignorance of the hard data but instead want to argue with me on the basis of what a talking head on their favorite local/national news station has asserted. None of them seem to understand they are making a fallacious Appeal to Authority when they say to me, "Well, the FDA said," or "This doctor on CNN said," or "the WHO said." One can only guess at the awful mess they're in with Christian doctrine, if this is how they arrive at their views on things.

    ??? But as you pointed out, the apostles, commanded not to preach Jesus, ignored the command and continued to preach in direct disobedience to the civil/religious authorities. And for some three centuries, the Church continued to disobey the command of Rome and spread the Gospel all throughout the Empire, suffering terrible persecution, as a result.

    I see here that you're specifically addressing the idea that the vaccine is somehow tied into the Mark of Beast and so is indicative of our being in the End Times described in Scripture. I don't think that at all, I hope you understand. We're always growing closer to the Last Days, the "birth pangs" of that time, it seems to me, not yet in evidence.

    Yes, in some cases. But conspiracies do - and are - happening. It is not just fear that might prompt one to expose them but a desire for justice, or to protect others, or to resist evildoers. It is foolish to think that if some conspiracy theories are bunk, they all therefore must be. That's a glaring non sequitur.

    Um...I think you're in error, here, Carl.

    Isaiah 8:9-14
    9 "Be broken, O peoples, and be shattered; And give ear, all remote places of the earth. Gird yourselves, yet be shattered; Gird yourselves, yet be shattered.
    10 "Devise a plan, but it will be thwarted; State a proposal, but it will not stand, For God is with us."
    11 For thus the LORD spoke to me with mighty power and instructed me not to walk in the way of this people, saying,
    12 "You are not to say, 'It is a conspiracy!' In regard to all that this people call a conspiracy, And you are not to fear what they fear or be in dread of it.
    13 "It is the LORD of hosts whom you should regard as holy. And He shall be your fear, And He shall be your dread.
    14 "Then He shall become a sanctuary; But to both the houses of Israel, a stone to strike and a rock to stumble over, And a snare and a trap for the inhabitants of Jerusalem.


    The calling of a thing a "conspiracy" was not forbidden here because there was no real conspiracy going on. In verse 10, Isaiah indicates that there were "plans" and "proposals" that God would thwart and cause not to stand. It is in light of God's confounding interference, that the Israelites were not to fearfully call out conspiracies among their enemies - but not because such conspiracies didn't exist.

    All of this, though, was given to Israel, not to you and I. Certainly, we are urged in the NT to trust God and reject anxiety, but the specific promise here God made to Israel does not extend to Christians today.

    Amen. Preach it, brother!

    Oh? What about Trophimus, or Epaphroditus, both of whom fell very ill, or Dorcas who died of her illness? There is no guarantee God will heal us of every disease that may afflict us.

    A recommendation is not a law, Carl. By definition, a recommendation does not command a particular course of action. So, no Christian is obliged to accede to such a recommendation - especially when there is so much false information being spread by the Establishment that has made the recommendation.

    Only, I think, because people are not free to make their own choice about it. The fascistic extortion of the unvaccinated by the Establishment and the Mob is levering the issue into very dangerous territory. There would be little comment by anyone on the matter if the governments of free societies weren't acting like totalitarian dictators.

    This is not actually consistent with the hard data. What you've offered here as a description of things is a carefully bent version of events and facts that relegates any other view or version to the realm of "conspiracy theory" which, as I pointed out, is reflective of the over-generalizing thinking employed by the racist.

    It has also caused human suffering and death, Carl.

    Which is slowly being dissolved under authoritarian governmental extortion via vaccine passports and restrictions.

    John wrote nothing of a "collective anointing among the mature." He wrote of the Spirit and his illuminating work in all born-again believers.

    All right. If this was your process of decision-making, so be it. In a free society, you may arrive at what ever decision you want by whatever means you want. We must let others choose different processes and positions as they like, too. This is how free societies work.

    Amen!
     
  7. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Sorry, but we are to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's.

    This my body is in fact God's - it doesn't belong to Caesar and it doesn't bear his mark (as did that coin to which Jesus referenced), it bears the seal of God.

    Therefore - Caesar has NO PLACE telling me what to do with this, a living TEMPLE OF GOD.

    It's something I'm happy to die for. You don't feel the same, and that's your choice. I don't have the ability to choose otherwise however. I will never submit this body to Caesar because it's not his property...

    I'll obey any laws that don't try to take what is God's place alone or place me in sin, but this body doesn't belong to the government, and this is absolutely a hill I'm more than happy to die on...

    I can generally think vaccines are a medical positive, but because Caesar has decided our bodies are his property to do with what he wills, I have the responsibility to make sure Caesar knows that's absolutely not the case.. it's in fact the temple of the living God, and as such, God's property alone.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2021
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  8. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ many waters cannot quench love Supporter

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  9. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    Well...

    That stirred up a hornets nest...

    I guess that confirms my contention that the Vaccination issue is indeed dividing the Body somewhat.

    What I posted was a letter in response to a friends correspondence - it was not meant to be a formal thesis for general consumption.

    I just wanted to illustrate the very sad and deep issues that are ripping good relationships apart.
     
  10. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ many waters cannot quench love Supporter

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    The need is for united prayer for Jesus as the head to do what needs to be done. Not division as to what civil servants are mandating. The division is manmade where it should be united as to His Wisdom be done, for we know not what to pray for. Let’s not allow the division to occur iow.
     
  11. anna ~ grace

    anna ~ grace Newbie Supporter

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    I think uncertainty and fear is normal here. This pandemic has been bizarre and the level of control being exhibited by governments is unprecedented. Something is different here. The media push to get vaccinated has many on edge. Combined with how survivable this virus is, it doesn’t quite add up.

    Others, though, are driving people away from the vaccine by over-spiritualizing it in a negative sense (mark of the beast). Others are guilt-tripping unvaccinated Christians and accusing them of selfishness, which is untrue. It’s incredibly divisive. I think we need to keep an eye on this, and be careful. There is no way this is only about medicine, and keeping people safe.

    My greatest point of concern is that some churches are planning on requiring vaccination status to enter church, and that’s horrifying. And not ok. The spirit of coercion and fear over here is concerning. No one should be “carded” to enter church. It’s terrible.
     
  12. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    I should explain that what I meant by Civil Law was established regulatory legislation that all citizens must comply with e.g. Tax, speed limits for chariots, stealing and the like.
    The edict to gag the Gospel was on a different level altogether.
    I mentioned this because we have reference in scripture regarding being Law abiding and I would see this to include safety measures required to control the spread of Covid.
     
  13. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    Of course - on a forum like this I don't expect agreement from every quarter.
     
  14. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If it's ripping relationships apart the relationship was flawed - and that's honest. Strong relationships can make it through anything, weak ones break over the smallest of challenges.

    Our relationship should be exceedingly strong, because it's based in Christ. That people have decided to base that relationship in something other than Christ is to their discredit on a grand scale.

    My relationship with you should never be based in this world, my medical decisions and care are personal, as are yours, and not the basis of our relationship if we are both in Christ, even if we make different decisions about medical concerns.
     
  15. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    The problem with this approach is that it ignores the one and concentrates on the 99.

    Over the years we have seen the demise of pastoral care in many churches, we have more teachers and fewer fathers as He warned...

    I will not sit back and see believers ripped away.
     
  16. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Ripped away to what? I mean seriously... what do you think is costing them their souls before God? A medical decision? Really?

    If people hadn't pushed this vaccine like pushers on the street and actually treated it like a normal vaccine there wouldn't be hardly any push back against taking it.

    Instead, people would rather shove anyone even remotely hesitant about a new vaccine out of society completely if they dare to take a wait and see attitude.

    I'd likely be vaccinated now if it wasn't for that... it's literally this absolutely insane attitude and force that's causing me to say no.

    Whatever this is with this vaccine is spiritual... I've never seen anyone in my entire life act like this over other people's medical care.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2021
  17. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    You are right - a medical decision cannot effect salvation.
    But this medical decision is deeply dividing believers.

    You are right - the way this has been managed by Governments is pretty oppressive.
    They are freaking out given that the economy is at stake...

    I am inclined to think this whole episode will eventually blow over - new better vaccines will be developed - there are some promising ones in the pipeline already.

    The UN are pushy because they think the future of mankind is in their hands...

    What else can you expect from a Godless organisation leaning on worldly wisdom...

    However this is not the final scene in the history of the world.

    I was told that if I was vaccinated my salvation was in question.

    Such alarmist rhetoric is pretty nuts.
     
  18. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Key is not to meet nuts with nuttier - you don't have to beat people over the head with your opinion... you answer the accusation calmly, and biblically by saying you took the vaccine in faith to guard your health upon the recommendation of your healthcare providers. This is how all medicine is practiced, period, and you would do the same if they were recommending surgery ect... you'd step out in faith after much prayer and trust those who are over your care - and when you do this there's no sin any more than its a sin to have your appendix removed or get a flu shot.

    Then I'd add you appreciate their concern over your wellbeing, and offer love and peace in Christ.

    Don't decide to argue points, and don't push them. When all this blows over (if it does) then you have led by Christian example. It's far better than beating people over the head, you don't want it done to you so don't do it to others. Be the bigger person.
     
  19. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    Yes for sure - that's pretty much our plan.
     
  20. anna ~ grace

    anna ~ grace Newbie Supporter

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    Bingo. I suspect it could be a lead-in to something much worse; a social credit system, or something. Which is an even better reason to not beat anyone up over getting it, but at least, we should all be careful, wise, and alert. And prayerful.
     
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