statuettes.... Error?!?

[thereselittleflower]

If that is what it takes to strenghthen ones Faith, LET IT BE DONE!!!.

AMEN and AMEN and AMEN!



.

 

[JimfromOhio]

This room is getting crowded!


.

Yes.. this is where I am "bowing out" to the defenders of their teachings. I have learned a long time ago to allow other Christians to practice their beliefs and only God can judge. I just don't agree and follow the teachings. (I will still speak up of such teachings as Martin Luther did).

 

[Tyndale]

Or consider these verses from scripture:

Gen 23:7 And Abraham stood up, and bowed himself to the people of the land, even to the children of Heth.​

Gen 27:29 Let people serve thee, and nations bow down to thee: be lord over thy brethren, and let thy mother's sons bow down to thee: cursed be every one that curseth thee, and blessed be he that blesseth thee.​

Gen 33:3 And he passed over before them, and bowed himself to the ground seven times, until he came near to his brother.​

Gen 33:6 Then the handmaidens came near, they and their children, and they bowed themselves.​

Gen 41:43 And he made him to ride in the second chariot which he had; and they cried before him, Bow the knee: and he made him ruler over all the land of Egypt.​

Gen 42:6 And Joseph was the governor over the land, and he it was that sold to all the people of the land: and Joseph's brethren came, and bowed down themselves before him with their faces to the earth.​

Now, we could go on and on and on regarding these examples of this posturing before men . . .

Do we need to Tyndale?

.

I understand, it's just carved images we're not supposed to worship/bow down to. Thanks for that, For a minute there, I thought I wouldn't get my MBE

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I understand, it's just carved images we're not supposed to worship/bow down to. Thanks for that, For a minute there, I thought I wouldn't get my MBE

I guess I would be out of place there in my Jeans, T-shirt and Adidas tennis shoes.

 

[Myriah]

Again, Tyndale . . you still have not gotten to first base. . .

For this verse to apply, the image has to be a god itself . . .

If it isn't, this verse doesn't apply . . .


.

Thereselittleflower is right.

The graven image needs to be a "god". For instance, my sibbling has a beach house and they have lots of dolphins in their beach home.

However, these dolphin statues are not "god" to them.

Graven Image:

noun
Definition: carving of god: a carving representing a god

 

[JimfromOhio]

Thereselittleflower is right.

The graven image needs to be a "god". For instance, my sibbling has a beach house and they have lots of dolphins in their beach home.

However, these dolphin statues are not "god" to them.

Graven Image:

noun
Definition: carving of god: a carving representing a god

I am glad I am not the only one who caught that. I was going to reply to that but I already decided to bow out.

 

[Tyndale]

thereselittleflower, I'm fascinated at the fine line you's are treading here with God's commandment. Can I ask you some more questions? You say you don't worship the image, you adorn the person the image represents. What do you do when you pray? Do you pray to the image or do you pray through it?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

So we are to equate someone kneeling in front of a an image of the Mother of God saying prayers to God with someone having a statue of Gozar on their mantle?

 

[icedtea]

Yes,a statue is a statue.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

So we are to equate someone kneeling in front of a an image of the Mother of God saying prayers to God with someone having a statue of Gozar on their mantle?

Well, if it would have fallen, then I would have worried a bit.

1 Samuel 5:3 And when the people of Ashdod arose early in the morning, there was Dagon, fallen on its face to the ground before the ark of the LORD. So they took Dagon and set it in its place again.

 

[thereselittleflower]

we can make righteous judgments of practices not lined up with scripture.. We are to test everything to see if is of God. Bowing to carven images are not lined up with scripture.. Therefore they are not of God. This is where we test everything.. What am I judging you on? I am judging a practice that does not line up with scripture..If you include yourself in doing this it is you whom are making the Judgment of yourself.. We are told that if we see a brother or sister sinning we are to go to that brother and Sister.. To me this would be a sin..For it is written in the bible not to do these things. I can't change a persons heart.. I can't make a person see what God says to be true but I can lead them to the scriptures. If I didn't love someone I wouldn't care what they did.. I love the Lord with all my heart and to see someone called by His name doing what His word says not to, grieves me from within..

IAA . . I have already addressed your insistance on judging others, and have no need to do so again . ..The scriptures speak against such judgement as you have meeted out to Catholics in this thread . .


I was going to post about these, but I can't do better than this :

God's command:

Ex 20:3-5 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me.​

Does this mean that religious images, including icons and statues and paintings, are wrong. Why are those Catholics running around with graven images around their necks, and with graven images all over their churches? You see, they are bad, evil, despicable!

But wait!

Again: God's command.

Ex 25: 18-20 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat. And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof. And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.​

What’s God doing commanding Moses to make graven images of angels out of gold? Did God forget His commandment?

But wait! There’s more!

Another God's command.

Numbers 21:8-9 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.​

Not only does God tolerate a graven image of a serpent, but He commands it to be made! All this despite God’s command in Exodus 20:4, and despite the fact that the Hebrew were to fall into idolatry later by worshiping the bronze serpent (2 Kings 18:4).


But wait! There’s yet more!

1 Kings 6:23-28 And within the oracle he made two cherubims of olive tree, each ten cubits high. And five cubits was the one wing of the cherub, and five cubits the other wing of the cherub: from the uttermost part of the one wing unto the uttermost part of the other were ten cubits. And the other cherub was ten cubits: both the cherubims were of one measure and one size. The height of the one cherub was ten cubits, and so was it of the other cherub. And he set the cherubims within the inner house: and they stretched forth the wings of the cherubims, so that the wing of the one touched the one wall, and the wing of the other cherub touched the other wall; and their wings touched one another in the midst of the house. And he overlaid the cherubims with gold.​

Oh, Solomon you bad, bad boy! You decorated that temple with all those statues, and such. What are you thinking, Solomon? You aren’t Catholic! God’s going to kick you in the rear! Here it comes! Here comes God to tell you to rip out all those graven images. Here He comes…

1 Kings 9:1-3 And it came to pass, when Solomon had finished the building of the house of the LORD, and the king's house, and all Solomon's desire which he was pleased to do, That the LORD appeared to Solomon the second time, as he had appeared unto him at Gibeon. And the LORD said unto him, I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication, that thou hast made before me: I have hallowed this house, which thou hast built, to put my name there for ever; and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.​

Huh? What? Hey, wait just a minute there, God. I don’t mean to be disrespectful, but according to my interpretation of your bible, you shouldn’t be saying stuff like that. According to my interpretation you should be telling Solomon to take all those graven images out of that place.


Well, the fact of the matter is, is that the interpretation of Exodus 20:4 is incorrect. Exodus 20:4 obviously doesn’t forbid religious imagery such as statues, icons and such. The injunction of 20:4 is to not carve graven images for idol worship. Using religious images in the right manner, without any superstition, is not only appropriate, the above Scripture citations prove that it is biblical. What better way to preach Christ crucified (1 Cor 1:18, 22-24) than by the legitimate use of a religious image such as the crucifix?

http://www.igma.tv/forum/viewtopic.php?t=37919&start=15&sid=ad59679457f446edb7b0bcc8f45b3792
​

Oh Solomon . . you bad, bad, bad boy! . . . .



.

 

[thereselittleflower]

thereselittleflower, I'm fascinated at the fine line you's are treading here with God's commandment. Can I ask you some more questions? You say you don't worship the image, you adorn the person the image represents. What do you do when you pray? Do you pray to the image or do you pray through it?

I don't do either . . ..the image is not necessary . .


Please see my post above . . . Solomon was a very bad, bad, bad boy . . . .

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[LittleLambofJesus]

1 Kings 9:1-3 And it came to pass, when Solomon had finished the building of the house of the LORD,

And don't forget about the one Tribe that was given to his son so David would always have a "Lamp" burning before the LORD.

Reve 5:5 But one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals."

 

[thereselittleflower]

I understand, it's just carved images we're not supposed to worship/bow down to. Thanks for that, For a minute there, I thought I wouldn't get my MBE

No, its images THAT ARE GODS that are prohibited to be bowed down to . .

Does the Catholic Church uses images THAT ARE GODS?


Oh boy, Solomon was really a very, very, very bad boy!

 

[IamAdopted]

IAA . . I have already addressed your insistance on judging others, and have no need to do so again . ..The scriptures speak against such judgement as you have meeted out to Catholics in this thread . .


I was going to post about these, but I can't do better than this :

God's command:

Ex 20:3-5 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me.​

Does this mean that religious images, including icons and statues and paintings, are wrong. Why are those Catholics running around with graven images around their necks, and with graven images all over their churches? You see, they are bad, evil, despicable!

But wait!

Again: God's command.

Ex 25: 18-20 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat. And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof. And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.​

What’s God doing commanding Moses to make graven images of angels out of gold? Did God forget His commandment?

But wait! There’s more!

Another God's command.

Numbers 21:8-9 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.​

Not only does God tolerate a graven image of a serpent, but He commands it to be made! All this despite God’s command in Exodus 20:4, and despite the fact that the Hebrew were to fall into idolatry later by worshiping the bronze serpent (2 Kings 18:4).


But wait! There’s yet more!

1 Kings 6:23-28 And within the oracle he made two cherubims of olive tree, each ten cubits high. And five cubits was the one wing of the cherub, and five cubits the other wing of the cherub: from the uttermost part of the one wing unto the uttermost part of the other were ten cubits. And the other cherub was ten cubits: both the cherubims were of one measure and one size. The height of the one cherub was ten cubits, and so was it of the other cherub. And he set the cherubims within the inner house: and they stretched forth the wings of the cherubims, so that the wing of the one touched the one wall, and the wing of the other cherub touched the other wall; and their wings touched one another in the midst of the house. And he overlaid the cherubims with gold.​

Oh, Solomon you bad, bad boy! You decorated that temple with all those statues, and such. What are you thinking, Solomon? You aren’t Catholic! God’s going to kick you in the rear! Here it comes! Here comes God to tell you to rip out all those graven images. Here He comes…

1 Kings 9:1-3 And it came to pass, when Solomon had finished the building of the house of the LORD, and the king's house, and all Solomon's desire which he was pleased to do, That the LORD appeared to Solomon the second time, as he had appeared unto him at Gibeon. And the LORD said unto him, I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication, that thou hast made before me: I have hallowed this house, which thou hast built, to put my name there for ever; and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.​

Huh? What? Hey, wait just a minute there, God. I don’t mean to be disrespectful, but according to my interpretation of your bible, you shouldn’t be saying stuff like that. According to my interpretation you should be telling Solomon to take all those graven images out of that place.


Well, the fact of the matter is, is that the interpretation of Exodus 20:4 is incorrect. Exodus 20:4 obviously doesn’t forbid religious imagery such as statues, icons and such. The injunction of 20:4 is to not carve graven images for idol worship. Using religious images in the right manner, without any superstition, is not only appropriate, the above Scripture citations prove that it is biblical. What better way to preach Christ crucified (1 Cor 1:18, 22-24) than by the legitimate use of a religious image such as the crucifix?

http://www.igma.tv/forum/viewtopic.php?t=37919&start=15&sid=ad59679457f446edb7b0bcc8f45b3792
​

Oh Solomon . . you bad, bad, bad boy! . . . .



.

And look as to what they represent for GODS house.. Look at Revelations. The serpent also had a meaning in Gods plan.. Did God tell your church to make these statues? I don't see it written anywhere in the bible that tells us to make sculpters of saints. Like I said.. You judge yourself. I judge the graven images... They are not in line with Scripture..

 

[thereselittleflower]

Several proverbial sayings come to mind . . .

such as to do with leading to water and drinking . . . . .


.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

And look as to what they represent for GODS house.. Look at Revelations. The serpent also had a meaning in Gods plan.. Did God tell your church to make these statues? I don't see it written anywhere in the bible that tells us to make sculpters of saints. Like I said.. You judge yourself. I judge the graven images... They are not in line with Scripture..

The Serpent vs the LORD:

Reve 12:14 and there were given to the woman two wings of the great eagle, that she may fly to the wilderness, to her place, where she is nourished a time, and times, and half a time, from the Face of the Serpent;

Reve 6:16 and they say to the mountains and to the rocks, `Fall upon us, and hide us from the Face of Him who is sitting upon the throne,

 

[Tyndale]

Oh Solomon . . you bad, bad, bad boy! . . . .
.

He was a bad boy alright and unfortunately he broke the law. There's not that many in the Old Testament who you could say were born of the spirit and followed God's law.

God tests people, he tested Abraham, he tested Moses. Did he test the Pope? Did the Popes state God said, "Let the Vatican make graven images"....nope the Pope said, "I will make graven images" There's a big difference.

 

[Tyndale]

When Solomon did sin he worshipped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Milcom the god of the children of Ammon

does anyone know what these deitys looked like?

 

[sunlover1]

When Solomon did sin he worshipped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Milcom the god of the children of Ammon

does anyone know what these deitys looked like?

Solomon introduced the worship of this idol (1 Kings 11:33). Jezebel's 400 priests were probably employed in its service (1 Kings 18:19). It was called the "queen of heaven" (Jer. 44:25).