statuettes.... Error?!?

thereselittleflower · Feb 13, 2007

Gwenyfur said:
Read of Solomon's reign...he allowed his foreign wives to have their gods as well...

not absurd...history

We are not talking about Solomon. . we are talking of the Temple known as Solomon's Temple . . .

What Solomon did latere in life had no bearing on what God did when the Temple, which was full of images, was dedicated . . .

You are simply engaging in the logical fallacy known as Strawman . . exchanging a substitue argument for the real one, attacking that easy to defeat argument, then acting as though you have addressed and defeated the real one . . all the while the real one is just standing there, at the side, observing all the straw being flung around in the process, just waiting to be engaged . .

By the way, is there a reason why you picked my posts to enter this thread in response to?

.

thereselittleflower · Feb 13, 2007

Gwenyfur said:
they didn't bow *to* the Temple....

they bowed to G-d who's glory resided *in* the temple...

HUGE difference

Would an outside observer be able to tell the difference?

And, by the way, the entire Temple, and all that was within it, was to be venerated/reverenced with a holy fear. . . . .

.

FrauleinElsa · Feb 13, 2007

May I ask, do you want people to agree with you even if they don't? Don't you think people have a right to thier own beliefs even if they're not the same as yours?

Gwenyfur · Feb 13, 2007

thereselittleflower said:
We are not talking about Solomon. . we are talking of the Temple known as Solomon's Temple . . .

What Solomon did latere in life had no bearing on what God did when the Temple, which was full of images, was dedicated . . .

It had direct bearing since it was his allowance of idolatry that led to the split of Israel, the desecration and destruction of th temple and the people's captivity in babylon...but as you say, it's about the temple itself....though it's impossible to take Scripture apart it's intertwined. Once piece touching another like a delicate tapestry...you can't pluck jsut one string leaving the tapestry intact.

You are simply engaging in the logical fallacy known as Strawman . . exchanging a substitue argument for the real one, attacking that easy to defeat argument, then acting as though you have addressed and defeated the real one . . all the while the real one is just standing there, at the side, observing all the straw being flung around in the process, just waiting to be engaged . .

You brought Solomon adn the temple into it...and really need to accept that people can offer a good argument for their beliefs based on real proofs...just because you don't agree with them doesn't make them a "strawman"

By the way, is there a reason why you picked my posts to enter this thread in response to?

.

ummm....yeah...
they were the most prolific kinda hard to miss a post of yours Though I did respond to a few others...but since you were taking Solomon's temple and the brass snake G-d's commands and the actions surrounding it way outa context...I figured I'd reply

<<<<wanders off wondering if Benedicta got some cocoa or not...chocolate always makes things better>>>>

thereselittleflower · Feb 13, 2007

FrauleinElsa said:
May I ask, do you want people to agree with you even if they don't? Don't you think people have a right to thier own beliefs even if they're not the same as yours?

People can believe the sun is the moon and the moon is the sun for all I care.

This is about others unjustly criticizing our use of religious images for which there is no condemnation in the scriptures for . .

perhaps your energies would be better served directed at their disagreements with us and unjust accusations against us trying to convince us we are wrong if you are concerned with someone wanting others to agree with them . . . .

.

Gwenyfur · Feb 13, 2007

thereselittleflower said:
Would an outside observer be able to tell the difference?

And, by the way, the entire Temple, and all that was within it, was to be venerated/reverenced with a holy fear. . . . .

.

The temple was important to the Jews because it signified the permanence of their Land...they had finally come home...

It wasn't the temple that was reverenced though....it was the Glory and Spirit of G-d who indwelt the temple that was reverenced.....

much as we reverence hte Ruach haKodesh who indwells believers today..

again...*HUGE* difference

thereselittleflower · Feb 13, 2007

Gwen why did God's glory descend on a temple full of images?

Why did God hallow a temple full of images?

Why did God choose for Himself a temple full of images?

.

thereselittleflower · Feb 13, 2007

Gwenyfur said:
It had direct bearing since it was his allowance of idolatry that led to the split of Israel, the desecration and destruction of th temple and the people's captivity in babylon...but as you say, it's about the temple itself....though it's impossible to take Scripture apart it's intertwined. Once piece touching another like a delicate tapestry...you can't pluck jsut one string leaving the tapestry intact.

Please see my post above. . . .

You brought Solomon adn the temple into it...

No, I brought the Temple into it . . that it was Solomon's is not the issue . . .

Trying to make it the issue is a strawman. . . . . a logical fallacy . . .

and really need to accept that people can offer a good argument for their beliefs based on real proofs...

OK . . then do so, please . . all I have seen so far is straw . ..

just because you don't agree with them doesn't make them a "strawman"

No . . that they are logically false makes them strawman arguments . .

Please stop making this personal.

ummm....yeah...
they were the most prolific kinda hard to miss a post of yours Though I did respond to a few others...but since you were taking Solomon's temple and the brass snake G-d's commands and the actions surrounding it way outa context...I figured I'd reply

Hmmm .. I haven't seen any valid evidence that this is true . . . and there are posts from other Catholics that are as long or longer than mine . . . so, why did you pick mine again to ENTER into this thread in response to?

<<<<wanders off wondering if Benedicta got some cocoa or not...chocolate always makes things better>>>>

I am sorry to hear you are not feeling your best . . . . . hope you find your hot chocolate comfort.

.

FrauleinElsa · Feb 13, 2007

thereselittleflower said:
People can believe the sun is the moon and the moon is the sun for all I care.

This is about others unjustly criticizing our use of religious images for which there is no condemnation in the scriptures for . .

perhaps your energies would be better served directed at their disagreements with us and unjust accusations against us trying to convince us we are wrong if you are concerned with someone wanting others to agree with them . . . .

.

Well, for the record since I'm not Catholic I don't believe in them. But that's not the point of my post. Why do you keep trying to convince people like me that we are wrong? I'm only asking because by now you have to realize that no matter how strongly you believe in your stance, it's unlikely that you will change thier minds. If we are wrong, people who don't believe in thier use, don't you think God will deal with us? At the same time God will reward you for your persecution. It just seems to me that people who believe in them are spending so much time trying to convince others they're wrong that that it's like trying ot empty the ocean with a bucket. If they help you, then what business is it of mine? I just wonder why it's so important that you convince people you're right. I'm only asking these questions because I really do care and it seems like an exercise in futility. I think people would a lot happier if we could just live and let live.

Be blessed,
Elsa

P.S. I really am only trying to help. I want us to get along even if don't agree.

thereselittleflower · Feb 13, 2007

Gwenyfur said:
The temple was important to the Jews because it signified the permanence of their Land...they had finally come home...

It wasn't the temple that was reverenced though....it was the Glory and Spirit of G-d who indwelt the temple that was reverenced.....

much as we reverence hte Ruach haKodesh who indwells believers today..

again...*HUGE* difference

And yet no answer to the question in my post:

Would an outside observer be able to tell the difference?

hmmmmmmm

.

thereselittleflower · Feb 13, 2007

FrauleinElsa said:
Well, for the record since I'm not Catholic I don't believe in them. But that's not the point of my post. Why do you keep trying to convince people like me that we are wrong? I'm only asking because by now you have to realize that no matter how strongly you believe in your stance, it's unlikely that you will change thier minds. If we are wrong, people who don't believe in thier use, don't you think God will deal with us? At the same time God will reward you for your persecution. It just seems to me that people who believe in them are spending so much time trying to convince others they're wrong that that it's like trying ot empty the ocean with a bucket. If they help you, then what business is it of mine? I just wonder why it's so important that you convince people you're right. I'm only asking these questions because I really do care and it seems like an exercise in futility. I think people would a lot happier if we could just live an let live.

Be blessed,
Elsa

P.S. I really am only trying to help. I want us to get along even if don' agree.

Well Elsa, I don't believe it is an exercise in futility . . it was because I was a lurker in such discussions on another board that I began to understand such argumentation from Catholics and Orthodox posters . . it was a huge shift in paradigm for me. . . .

So, no . . I don't believe for a momment it is an exercise in futility . . the audience is much bigger than just those whom I respond to directly . .

.

Gwenyfur · Feb 13, 2007

That's just it TLF...it wasn't full of images...
G-d was very specific in what He allowed in HIS temple...

but there were not statues of things in the earth, on the earth or above the earth other than the cherubim on the ark of hte covenant and the brass snake which He ordered Moshe to make for them in the desert.

that's it...

It was ornate and clad with gold and silks, built of cedar and fine stone...but no "graven images" other than the ark and the serpent...

nice try though

FrauleinElsa · Feb 13, 2007

You do have to acknowlege that not everyone will be convinced, right? I've tried over and over in the past to convince people that I'm right and finally I realized that unless people are willing they won't change thier mind. I guess, it's my personality though. It doesn't matter to me if anyone believes me. Again, just trying to help.

Gwenyfur · Feb 13, 2007

FrauleinElsa said:
Well, for the record since I'm not Catholic I don't believe in them. But that's not the point of my post. Why do you keep trying to convince people like me that we are wrong? I'm only asking because by now you have to realize that no matter how strongly you believe in your stance, it's unlikely that you will change thier minds. If we are wrong, people who don't believe in thier use, don't you think God will deal with us? At the same time God will reward you for your persecution. It just seems to me that people who believe in them are spending so much time trying to convince others they're wrong that that it's like trying ot empty the ocean with a bucket. If they help you, then what business is it of mine? I just wonder why it's so important that you convince people you're right. I'm only asking these questions because I really do care and it seems like an exercise in futility. I think people would a lot happier if we could just live and let live.

Be blessed,
Elsa

P.S. I really am only trying to help. I want us to get along even if don't agree.

Good point...

Shalom y'all

thereselittleflower · Feb 13, 2007

FrauleinElsa said:
You do have to acknowlege that not everyone will be convinced, right? I've tried over and over in the past to convince people that I'm right and finally I realized that unless people are willing they won't change thier mind. I guess, it's my personality though. It doesn't matter to me if anyone believes me. Again, just trying to help.

Of course many will not be convinced.

Is that the issue?

.

FrauleinElsa · Feb 13, 2007

thereselittleflower said:
Of course many will not be convinced.

Is that the issue? .

I guess not. I just don't want you to suffer from exhaustion, or an anuerysm . That's all

thereselittleflower · Feb 13, 2007

Gwenyfur said:
That's just it TLF...it wasn't full of images...
G-d was very specific in what He allowed in HIS temple...

but there were not statues of things in the earth, on the earth or above the earth other than the cherubim on the ark of hte covenant and the brass snake which He ordered Moshe to make for them in the desert.

that's it...

It was ornate and clad with gold and silks, built of cedar and fine stone...but no "graven images" other than the ark and the serpent...

nice try though

Ummm . . Gwen, you just demonstrated you don't know much about the Temple of Solomon . if you had taken time to read through this thread, you would have seen that there were many more images in Solomon's temple than you have said above. .

The walls were covered with what you call "graven" images . . . of plants and birds, etc . .

What about the bull?

What about the angels whose wings stretched across the holy place from wall to wall and floor to ceiling?

Are you not aware that this is all described in scripture?

The Temple was FULL of images . .

I am sorry you are not as well informed about the ancient Jewish faith as you obviously believe yourself to be . . . .

.

thereselittleflower · Feb 13, 2007

FrauleinElsa said:
I guess not. I just don't want you to suffer from exhaustion, or an anuerysm . That's all

Well, having already suffered from a stroke, I take breaks when I need to. Thank you.

.

FrauleinElsa · Feb 13, 2007

thereselittleflower said:
Ummm . . Gwen, you just demonstrated you don't know much about the Temple of Solomon . if you had taken time to read through this thread, you would have seen that there were many more images in Solomon's temple than you have said above. .

The walls were covered with what you call "graven" images . . . of plants and birds, etc . .

What about the bull?

What about the angles whose wings stretched from wall to wall and floor to ceiling?

Are you not aware that this is all described in scripture?

The Temple was FULL of images . .

I am sorry you are not as well informed about the ancient Jewish faith as you obviously believe yourself to be . . . .

.

Ummm...Gwen's Messianic. I attended a Messianic Synagogue for 2 years and if there's one thing I came away with it's this: they know their stuff. Seriously. You learn things there you wouldn't anywhere else.

FrauleinElsa · Feb 13, 2007

thereselittleflower said:
Well, having already suffered from a stroke, I take breaks when I need to. Thank you.

.

Good, you need to take care of yourself . You know, I may not agree but I can say I admire you for your passion and dedication. I can tell that you're heart is in the right place.

statuettes.... Error?!?

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