Statues

[Leevo]

Another example, I would like to give, concerning the Bible not being a cut and dry interpretation, is the "call no man father." If we take that verse literally, we could not have founding fathers, we couldn't call our dad's "father," we could not have grandfathers, or anything else for that matter. That is why it is important to investigate the Bible thoroughly to make sure that it doesn't mean something else.

 

[WirSindBettler]

Uh! Who do you think Inspired the Scriptures, both old testament and new testment if it wasn't Jesus?

Really! You haven't come to that inspired conclusion yet?

Bar-Elohim....

why did the Lord speak about making the cherubim, etc? Because they did not have what we have. They had and needed the physical, for they needed to " see " optically in order to believe. We walk by faith. They had literal swords, we have the Word, the double edged sword.

Jesus is God, the Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. But Jesus is neither the Father nor the Holy Spirit, the Father is neither Jesus nor the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is neither Jesus nor the Father.

I'll ask again, for the fourth time: where in the Scriptures does Jesus say:

not to make any images of anything, in heaven, on earth, or under the earth. Nor worship them, or serve them, or use them as an idol

Not the Father, not the Holy Spirit, but Christ Jesus.

No non sequiturs. No changing the subject. Just a straightforward answer.

 

[Barelohim]

(quote)The thing is, stuff in the Bible, is rarely so cut and dry. The Bible, through careful study, because we know that God does not contradict himself, is condemning the worship of false Gods and Idols through statues. Not the possession of one, as a spiritual tool to draw you closer to God.(unquote)

well leevo, thought I had lost you there for a time..... Leevo, can one carry hot coals in his tunic, and not get burn marks? Hmmm, closer to the Lord. When He lives inside you, and is closer than your breath. Leevo, you don't need closeness like you are perceiving, you need to know what you already have access to. He said, " I will never leave you nor forsake you!" We appropiate this fact by faitih, not by feelings or emotions. All through the Old testament the Lord did many things to manifest His reality to His people. BUT the one thing He really wanted was for them to come to KNOW HIM.

They never did! And for a reason! But the promise of Him having a people who would and could, He brought that promise to reality when He sent the Spirit, to live and abide in these vessels of Clay, His church..

Bar-Elohim

 

[Barelohim]

(quote)Not the Father, not the Holy Spirit, but Christ Jesus.(unquote)

Sir, He is the Father, the Holy Spirit! He is the advocate, the brother, the friend, the comforter, the healer, the Righteous one, He is Wisdom, He is Understanding, HE is Patience. He is the ALL in ALL.... All the attributes of Christ reside in the believer, because He resides in the believer. And as we are to grow in Christlikeness, all these character attributes of His Divine nature become ours.


The trinity teaching is a necessary tool, whereby one can come to realize the relationship between the believer and the Lord. And this is absolutely necessary in the begining of ones salvation. BUT there has to come a time, in the relationship with Jesus, that you KNOW HIM WHO IS ALL THINGS...

When learning numbers in school you start out with objects, adding one to another or subtracting one from a number. BUT there comes a time when you know 3+12=15.... You don't need the objects to count one two three. Course there are those that still need their fingers....

Bar-Elohim

 

[Barelohim]

Leevo. (quote)
Another example, I would like to give, concerning the Bible not being a cut and dry interpretation, is the "call no man father." If we take that verse literally, we could not have founding fathers, we couldn't call our dad's "father," we could not have grandfathers, or anything else for that matter. That is why it is important to investigate the Bible thoroughly to make sure that it doesn't mean something else. (unquote)

Leevo, that is why you come to understand what Jesus meant by what He said... He gave the disciples a prayer calling GOD their father, because they had become born of the Spirit, as He had.

You call father to those who sired you, not just any man who teaches to call them " father "!

Just like when Paul wrote, "...and I forbid a woman to teach, or exercise authority over the man! "

Was Paul teaching that women are not to be teachers? NO! He was pointing to the subject being taught, which was that women have authority over the man!......This is what he forbade being taught..

Bar-Elohim

 

[PaladinValer]

Sir, He is the Father, the Holy Spirit!

Nope; that violates the historic Christian theology on the Holy Trinity, as formulated in the words of the Nicene Creed.

The Father is God
The Son is God
The Holy Spirit is God

The Father is not the Son nor the Holy Spirit
The Son is not the Father nor the Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit is not the Father nor the Son

There is only One God.

That is the Trinitarian dogma put in seven simple statements, as written by none other than St. Augustine of Hippo, arguably the greatest Biblical scholar of the West of all time.

 

[Barelohim]

Well PaladinV.....(quote)That is the Trinitarian dogma put in seven simple statements, as written by none other than St. Augustine of Hippo, arguably the greatest Biblical scholar of the West of all time.(unquote)

On whose say so? Guess there was no one there at the time Augustine was giving this scenario, but I bet he knows now, he was in error.

1 Corinthians 6: 16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
Just as paul wrote, " it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me.

One Spirit, not two, or three.....

as poster earlier, it is necessary to have the elementary trinity teaching, when we are young in the things of the Lord, BUT one must grow in understanding as they relate to Him, and from HIM.

Bar-Elohim

 

[PaladinValer]

On whose say so?

Historical records from Pentecost through 325ce, when the Nicene Creed was formulated as the definition of Christian orthodoxy.

The same Creed that defines it here on CF too.

Guess there was no one there at the time Augustine was giving this scenario, but I bet he knows now, he was in error.

<snip>

Arguing against Nicene theology is not permitted here, and those who don't agree with it are not allowed to post in the orthodox Christian-only areas.

 

[WirSindBettler]

(quote)Not the Father, not the Holy Spirit, but Christ Jesus.(unquote)

Sir, He is the Father, the Holy Spirit! He is the advocate, the brother, the friend, the comforter, the healer, the Righteous one, He is Wisdom, He is Understanding, HE is Patience. He is the ALL in ALL.... All the attributes of Christ reside in the believer, because He resides in the believer. And as we are to grow in Christlikeness, all these character attributes of His Divine nature become ours.


The trinity teaching is a necessary tool, whereby one can come to realize the relationship between the believer and the Lord. And this is absolutely necessary in the begining of ones salvation. BUT there has to come a time, in the relationship with Jesus, that you KNOW HIM WHO IS ALL THINGS...

When learning numbers in school you start out with objects, adding one to another or subtracting one from a number. BUT there comes a time when you know 3+12=15.... You don't need the objects to count one two three. Course there are those that still need their fingers....

Bar-Elohim

The Athanasian Creed (held by all Trinitarian Christian denominations):

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

And the catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is all one: the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three Eternals, but one Eternal. As there are not three Uncreated nor three Incomprehensibles, but one Uncreated and one Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Ghost almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords, but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say, There be three Gods, or three Lords.

The Father is made of none: neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son: neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before or after other; none is greater or less than another; But the whole three Persons are coeternal together, and coequal: so that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshiped. He, therefore, that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe faithfully the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is, that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God of the Substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man of the substance of His mother, born in the world; Perfect God and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood; Who, although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but one Christ: One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking the manhood into God; One altogether; not by confusion of Substance, but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead; He ascended into heaven; He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty; from whence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give an account of their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire.

This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.

Here's a diagram for you:

Now for the fifth time, where in scripture does Jesus say:

not to make any images of anything, in heaven, on earth, or under the earth. Nor worship them, or serve them, or use them as an idol

Not the Father, not the Son, but Christ Jesus.

 

[Tallguy88]

The following is the official Catholic teaching from the Catechism: CCC 1159-1162

1159 The sacred image, the liturgical icon, principally represents Christ. It cannot represent the invisible and incomprehensible God, but the incarnation of the Son of God has ushered in a new "economy" of images:

Previously God, who has neither a body nor a face, absolutely could not be represented by an image. But now that he has made himself visible in the flesh and has lived with men, I can make an image of what I have seen of God . . . and contemplate the glory of the Lord, his face unveiled.
​

1160 Christian iconography expresses in images the same Gospel message that Scripture communicates by words. Image and word illuminate each other:

We declare that we preserve intact all the written and unwritten traditions of the Church which have been entrusted to us. One of these traditions consists in the production of representational artwork, which accords with the history of the preaching of the Gospel. For it confirms that the incarnation of the Word of God was real and not imaginary, and to our benefit as well, for realities that illustrate each other undoubtedly reflect each other's meaning.
​

1161 All the signs in the liturgical celebrations are related to Christ: as are sacred images of the holy Mother of God and of the saints as well. They truly signify Christ, who is glorified in them. They make manifest the "cloud of witnesses"29 who continue to participate in the salvation of the world and to whom we are united, above all in sacramental celebrations. Through their icons, it is man "in the image of God," finally transfigured "into his likeness,"30 who is revealed to our faith. So too are the angels, who also are recapitulated in Christ:

Following the divinely inspired teaching of our holy Fathers and the tradition of the Catholic Church (for we know that this tradition comes from the Holy Spirit who dwells in her) we rightly define with full certainty and correctness that, like the figure of the precious and life-giving cross, venerable and holy images of our Lord and God and Savior, Jesus Christ, our inviolate Lady, the holy Mother of God, and the venerated angels, all the saints and the just, whether painted or made of mosaic or another suitable material, are to be exhibited in the holy churches of God, on sacred vessels and vestments, walls and panels, in houses and on streets.
​

1162 "The beauty of the images moves me to contemplation, as a meadow delights the eyes and subtly infuses the soul with the glory of God." Similarly, the contemplation of sacred icons, united with meditation on the Word of God and the singing of liturgical hymns, enters into the harmony of the signs of celebration so that the mystery celebrated is imprinted in the heart's memory and is then expressed in the new life of the faithful.



Retrieved from the Vatican website: Catechism of the Catholic Church - Celebrating the Church's liturgy

 

[Tallguy88]

Basically, before Christ, it was a sin to try to make an image of God since he is a spirit and without a body. After Christ was born, however, we can now depict him since he has a real body of flesh and blood. We don't worship images of Christ, we use them as focal point in our worship. The help us to see that God really was a man who died for our sins.

Similarly with depictions of the saints, we honor them as righteous example of Christian life. We ask them for their intercession, but with the understanding that they can do nothing apart from God, through whom all things are possible. Statues of them help us to visualize and remember them better than if we only used our imagination.

Hope that helps.

 

[PaladinValer]

Basically, before Christ, it was a sin to try to make an image of God since he is a spirit and without a body. After Christ was born, however, we can now depict him since he has a real body of flesh and blood. We don't worship images of Christ, we use them as focal point in our worship. The help us to see that God really was a man who died for our sins.

Similarly with depictions of the saints, we honor them as righteous example of Christian life. We ask them for their intercession, but with the understanding that they can do nothing apart from God, through whom all things are possible. Statues of them help us to visualize and remember them better than if we only used our imagination.

Hope that helps.

Good explanation!

 

[Barelohim]

Sir, If you don't understand the the Truth is contained in the scriptures revealed by the Holy Spirit. Anything outside the word revealed by the Spirit is as Paul wrote .." gone outside the word! " WE don't need men to verify the scriptures to us, we have something better and more reliable... Which is He, the Spirit that caused it to be written ...... 1 Corinthians 2.... Paul explains. And 1 John 2: 26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

And by what authority does the catholic church hiearchy have to make these claims?

Bar-Elohim.

 

[Tallguy88]

Sir, If you don't understand the the Truth is contained in the scriptures revealed by the Holy Spirit. Anything outside the word revealed by the Spirit is as Paul wrote .." gone outside the word! " WE don't need men to verify the scriptures to us, we have something better and more reliable... Which is He, the Spirit that caused it to be written ...... 1 Corinthians 2.... Paul explains. And 1 John 2: 26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

And by what authority does the catholic church hiearchy have to make these claims?

Bar-Elohim.

The authority given to it by Jesus Christ.

If you trust scripture alone, then how do you know that you have the correct scriptures? The Catholic Bible has more books than the Protestant Bible, the Orthodox Bible has more books than the Catholic, and the Ethiopian bible has more than anyone else! And they have all been around a lot longer than the shortened Bible used by most Protestants today. How do you know that your shortened version is correct? How can I trust Scripture alone, if I cannot be sure what books compose scripture?

As a Catholic, I can say that the Holy Spirit guided the Church to put the correct books in the Bible. What can you say on the issue?

 

[PaladinValer]

Sir, If you don't understand the the Truth is contained in the scriptures revealed by the Holy Spirit. Anything outside the word revealed by the Spirit is as Paul wrote .." gone outside the word! " WE don't need men to verify the scriptures to us, we have something better and more reliable... Which is He, the Spirit that caused it to be written ...... 1 Corinthians 2.... Paul explains. And 1 John 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

And by what authority does the catholic church hiearchy have to make these claims?

Bar-Elohim.

Dodge. Can his post be addressed? Can the Lutheran poster's argument which directly challenges your claim be addressed?

 

[Barelohim]

The authority given to it by Jesus Christ.

If you trust scripture alone, then how do you know that you have the correct scriptures? The Catholic Bible has more books than the Protestant Bible, the Orthodox Bible has more books than the Catholic, and the Ethiopian bible has more than anyone else! And they have all been around a lot longer than the shortened Bible used by most Protestants today. How do you know that your shortened version is correct? How can I trust Scripture alone, if I cannot be sure what books compose scripture?

As a Catholic, I can say that the Holy Spirit guided the Church to put the correct books in the Bible. What can you say on the issue?

From a long time relationship with the Spirit of Christ, who had them written, and is a witness to the Truth. Do you think that the Lord God, would give us His word, knowing that men were going to add, or detract from it, without giving a witness to the Truth?

Yes, I agree the Holy Spirit gave us the Word, and even with the added or detracated books or writings, can still lead us through it, with the Spiritual Understanding of what is OF HIM, and what isn't! Why one of the gifts of having the Spirit, is the gift of discernment.... 1 Cor. 12.....

Secondly if you are saying that the Catholic Church is based on Jesus making Peter the head honcho from Matt 16.... then you need to read Luke, and Marks comments on the same meeting. Also Peters own writings don't even hint at this, nor Pauls epistles.

Sorry, but there you are.

Bar-Elohim... You shall KNOW THE TRUTH, for the TRUTH shall set you free! Ever wonder free from what?

 

[Leevo]

From a long time relationship with the Spirit of Christ, who had them written, and is a witness to the Truth. Do you think that the Lord God, would give us His word, knowing that men were going to add, or detract from it, without giving a witness to the Truth?

Yes, I agree the Holy Spirit gave us the Word, and even with the added or detracated books or writings, can still lead us through it, with the Spiritual Understanding of what is OF HIM, and what isn't! Why one of the gifts of having the Spirit, is the gift of discernment.... 1 Cor. 12.....

Secondly if you are saying that the Catholic Church is based on Jesus making Peter the head honcho from Matt 16.... then you need to read Luke, and Marks comments on the same meeting. Also Peters own writings don't even hint at this, nor Pauls epistles.

Sorry, but there you are.

Bar-Elohim... You shall KNOW THE TRUTH, for the TRUTH shall set you free! Ever wonder free from what?

I can't really express it better than the Catechism. Also, yes, Peter was the rock on which Christ built his church. That church just so happens to be the Catholic Church...

 

[Barelohim]

(Quote)I can't really express it better than the Catechism. Also, yes, Peter was the rock on which Christ built his church. That church just so happens to be the Catholic Church..(unquote)

No! The " rock " on which the church is built is the " revelations " that come from HIM! Galatians has Paul saying the same thing, And many other places Paul relates ..." by a revelation " he went.....etc.

That is what is missing in Christendom Leevo. Those " revelations " from Him. Read Peters letters, and you won't find one hint of Peter mentioning this fact, if it was that important. And Paul knew Peter for a long while, and Paul doesn't declare anything of the sort about Peter.

The only authority you have, is what comes from the catholic church hierarchy, to make the papacy look legitiamet... Other than that one scripture, which has been used wrongly, name anywhere else in the scriptures that state Peter was made head of anything. Other than his ministry was to the jews, and even then Paul had to rebuke him for his hypocrisy.

The church is not a denomination Leevo. The church is not a building of wood or stone. The church are the members of the body of Christ, that contain the Spirit of Christ, and they have a living relationship with the head of this Church, which is Jesus Himself... HE is our High Priest, no man can fill that for they are merely human, and need replacing time after time. He is our High Priest eternally...

Leevo, read your bible, for heavens sake....

Bar-Elohim.

 

[Leevo]

(Quote)I can't really express it better than the Catechism. Also, yes, Peter was the rock on which Christ built his church. That church just so happens to be the Catholic Church..(unquote)

No! The " rock " on which the church is built is the " revelations " that come from HIM! Galatians has Paul saying the same thing, And many other places Paul relates ..." by a revelation " he went.....etc.

That is what is missing in Christendom Leevo. Those " revelations " from Him. Read Peters letters, and you won't find one hint of Peter mentioning this fact, if it was that important. And Paul knew Peter for a long while, and Paul doesn't declare anything of the sort about Peter.

The only authority you have, is what comes from the catholic church hierarchy, to make the papacy look legitiamet... Other than that one scripture, which has been used wrongly, name anywhere else in the scriptures that state Peter was made head of anything. Other than his ministry was to the jews, and even then Paul had to rebuke him for his hypocrisy.

The church is not a denomination Leevo. The church is not a building of wood or stone. The church are the members of the body of Christ, that contain the Spirit of Christ, and they have a living relationship with the head of this Church, which is Jesus Himself... HE is our High Priest, no man can fill that for they are merely human, and need replacing time after time. He is our High Priest eternally...

Leevo, read your bible, for heavens sake....

Bar-Elohim.

Hmm, it seems you are taking everything at face value, consider the culture of that time, and consider everything else before making the claim your making. It is nice and cozy to think that it was on the confession I suppose but consider the entirety of what Jesus told Peter.

Matthew 18. "Now I say to you that you are Peter (which means ‘rock’), and upon this rock I will build my church, and all the powers of hell will not conquer it. 19. And I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. Whatever you forbid on earth will be forbidden in heaven, and whatever you permit on earth will be permitted in heaven.”

Why would Jesus have given Peter the "keys to the Kingdom of Heaven," if it was only his confession that Jesus was building his church on? He said that first to Peter, and later at Pentecost, to the other apostles. Not to all of his followers, Jesus had hundreds.

Jesus later asks Peter to, "Feed my sheep." Speaking of the other apostles. And the other followers.

Also, Peter is made distinct several times throughout the New Testament. Mark 16 7. "But go and tell his disciples and Peter, ‘He is going before you to Galilee; there you will see him, as he told you.’”

Why is Peter made distinct from the other disciples here?

Also, here, in Luke 24. The resurrected Christ appears first to Peter when he showed himself to the apostles.

33.They got up and returned at once to Jerusalem. There they found the Eleven and those with them, assembled together 34. and saying, “It is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon.”

Why is that? Could it be that Peter is the head of the apostles and the Church?

Peter lead them in the Book of Acts.

Acts 2 14.Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice, and proclaimed to them, “You who are Jews, indeed all of you staying in Jerusalem. Let this be known to you, and listen to my words.

Peter was the one who stood up and lead. You cannot deny that Peter had his place as head of the apostles. You see Peter everywhere as a leader. Also, later in Acts 2, Peter receives the first converts into the Church. He leads several other times throughout Acts. You always see, Peter and the apostles, not just the twelve apostles when reading the Bible. In Acts 8, Peter excommunicates the first heretic. Peter is also the first to recognize Gentiles in the Church in Acts 10. Paul also goes to visit Peter specifically in Galatians. Not any of the other apostles. I wonder why? Maybe because Peter is the leader.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The issue at hand was not really as cut-and-dried as many of seem to think it was. There was a group of Christians known as the iconoclasts who did succeed in taking control of the early church and set about destroying the various images and statues that many otherwise ignorant people were actually worshipping. Iconoclasm is hardly dead and was revived during the Protestant Reformation by men such as Zwingli - and for many good reasons.