Statues and Images....

Philip · Jul 1, 2003

humblejoe said:
So if a priest believes that someone with a 3-year penance has completely repented before their time is up, will he waive the rest of the penance?

Doesn't the giving of a penance presume that ther person has completely repented?

Philip · Jul 1, 2003

Just out of curiosity, Chanterhanson, what jurisdiction do you belong to?

MariaRegina · Jul 1, 2003

humblejoe said:
So if a priest believes that someone with a 3-year penance has completely repented before their time is up, will he waive the rest of the penance?

My dearest joy in Christ, Joe:

Christ is in our midst!

EXCOMMUNICATION

Yes, the penance could be lifted, but that is a matter between the Bishop, the priest and the individual penitent. Indeed a penance or an excommunication is harsh. It is a disciplinary action taken to bring the person to repentance. However, do you see radical wicca feminists within the Orthodox Church? Have you ever heard of an Orthodox Call to Action? If anyone tried that, they would be out - no longer Orthodox.

PRAYING AT NON-ORTHODOX SHRINES

That is why I am very careful when it comes to the ecumenical movement and praying in non-Orthodox churches or shrines. That is best left to Bishops and Priests who can get away with it. (But they are answerable to God. Paraphrasing Dante: The streets of hell are lined with the heads of priests and the lampposts are the bishops.)

DISCIPLINING THE CHURCH

Correction is done as an act of charity. To look the other way when someone is doing something wrong is a lack of charity that could lead to the sinner's damnation and cause scandal. Even St. Paul stressed that the Church needs to discipline its members. Read his epistles. In Corinthians he chastised the early Christians with the words, "Shall I come to you with a rod." (cf I Cor 4:21).

I really don't want to start another thread on penance because it is hard to understand. Some people have the notion that imposing a penance or excommunication is uncharitable. it is harsh, but it is very biblical and necessary.

YSIC

Elizabeth

MariaRegina · Jul 1, 2003

Philip said:
Doesn't the giving of a penance presume that ther person has completely repented?

Thank you Philip:

Christ is in our midst!

Yes, a penance is accepted by a repenting person in sorrow for his sins. It is an act of repentance which helps lead a person to complete repentance, or metanoia. It is a part of the Holy Mystery of Penance.

Excommunication, on the other hand, is imposed upon a person who will not accept a penance and who is not repentant.

Now back to prayer before statues and icons.

Your Sister in Christ,

Elizabeth

CopticOrthodox · Jul 1, 2003

I think we should be careful about extrapolating general rules from what a person was told to do by their Father of Confession. Maybe someone was told not to do something because their preist didn't think it would be a good idea. We're not priests, do don't know as much as we'd like to think, and we shouldn't think we understand the normal practices of the Church from these isolated situations, who's details we do not know. All the examples listed so far seem to be people disobeying thier priest. If you have permission to interact with other Christian groups, then obedience is not a problem as with the exampels listed above.

The example of the woman who was told not to go to a Prot service & went... reading between the lines it sounds like someone who refused to accept the Church's teaching on the Rapture, and went to a Prot service after being told not to because of that by their priest. In such a case it might make sense to bar them from Communion for a time to make it clear to them that they must chose between Orthodoxy and Protestantism, and cannot have both. I have no idea what the situation was, but we shouldn't extrapolate from what little has been posted here to say that in Orthodox there is a penalty of being bared from Communion for attending a Protestant service.

MariaRegina · Jul 1, 2003

Dearest Coptic Orthodox:

I think you are confused in your ecclesiology. Does the Coptic Church follow the Rudder like the Eastern Orthodox Church does? These Holy Canons say that we cannot visit or participate in a schismatic or heretical church. Unfortunately, as of now, both the Catholic and the Protestant churches fall into one of these two categories. That's not my ruling. Read Bishop Timothy Ware's THE ORTHODOX CHURCH.

In fact, my former Catholic Confessor told me that the Orthodox Church was in schism with the Catholic Church. So both sides are using the term schism to describe the separation of the two churches.

The woman in question did believe in the Rapture and did persist with her visits to Protestant churches in spite of being forbidden to do so. She was disobedient and lacked stability, and that is precisely why she was penanced by the Eastern Orthodox Church.

However, our priests have made it clear that they don't want any of us visiting non-Orthodox churches, unless there is a funeral or wedding that we cannot avoid. And then we cannot participate by singing, reading the Scriptures, or sharing communion with them in their church. We can only attend an approved ecumenical Vespers service, whatever!!?? I am going to remain obedient.

With all the current Vatican-Patriarchal discussions, this whole thread may be obsolete soon.

Let's pray and be charitable. And please pray for that woman and for all those who are penanced, that they may repent.

Your sister in Christ,

Elizabeth

Reader Nilus · Jul 2, 2003

However, our priests have made it clear that they don't want any of us visiting non-Orthodox churches, unless there is a funeral or wedding that we cannot avoid. And then we cannot participate by singing, reading the Scriptures, or sharing communion with them in their church. We can only attend an approved ecumenical Vespers service, whatever!!?? I am going to remain obedient.

What are your priests in fear of? In my opinion if I heard a priest say things like you can't do this you can't do that, I would go to a different Church. I have come across Orthodox that have come out of various movements into the Church that still have plenty of baggage from their former way of looking at things. I seek out native born Orthodox priests when ever I can.
Jeff the Finn

Reader Nilus · Jul 2, 2003

CopticOrthodox said:
we shouldn't extrapolate from what little has been posted here to say that in Orthodox there is a penalty of being bared from Communion for attending a Protestant service.

I have never heard of such a thing, and I agree with CopticOrthodox, that the case in question was an individual matter, and is no way reflective of Orthodoxy in general.
Jeff the Finn

MariaRegina · Jul 2, 2003

jeffthefinn said:
What are your priests in fear of? I seek out native born Orthodox priests when ever I can.
Jeff the Finn

Dearest Jeff and Coptic Christian:

Christ is in our midst! He is and always shall be!

This is the Faith of our Fathers! This is the Orthodox Faith! sang the Holy Fathers of the Seventh Ecumenical Council. A council that the Coptics refuse to acknowledge even to this day - why? The Catholics and Orthodox accept this council. What are the Coptic objections to the Seven Ecumenical Councils? I'm just asking an honest question.

Are you obedient to the Holy Canons (I know they sometimes conflict) or do you prefer your own opinions and those priests who agree with you? Don't the Coptics have similar Canons? Ask your priests, if you dare. Are you afraid that they will tell you the truth?

At my Chrismation, I agreed to obey the Holy Canons. The Holy Bishops inspired by the Holy Spirit wrote these canons. Who am I to be above the canons? So if a Holy Canon says that I should not visit a heretical or schismatic Church. I will obey. PERIOD. NO DEBATE IS NEEDED HERE. It is a matter of obedience. It's a matter of faith.

This Holy Canon holds true for both Catholics and Orthodox. Even cradle Orthodox Priests have told me the same thing. Bishop Tickhon of the OCA is adamant in upholding the Holy Canons, of course, he's a convert so you would disagree with him, I suppose.

Your sister in Christ,

Elizabeth

Reader Nilus · Jul 2, 2003

The Rudder is not the Gospel, and I think that if we proscribe people from visiting other churches, we are in the same camp as the JW's and that is not good. I have never heard of anyone prohibited from visiting other churches.
Jeff the Finn

MariaRegina · Jul 2, 2003

jeffthefinn said:
The Rudder is not the Gospel, and I think that if we proscribe people from visiting other churches, we are in the same camp as the JW's and that is not good. I have never heard of anyone prohibited from visiting other churches.
Jeff the Finn

Dearest Jeff:

Christ is in our midst! Open your eyes.

Think: What if the good Bishop reads your posts? He has a computer. You've given enough information that he could find your identity.

I guess you should stay away from the good Bishop. He believes in the Rudder as upholding Orthodox Tradition. The Rudder simply lists the Holy Canons of the Holy Orthodox Church.

Are you saying that you don't want to read and even know the Holy Canons? Are you somehow against Tradition? Have you fallen into the sola scriptura camp?

Just some questions to get you thinking.

YSIC
Elizabeth

Reader Nilus · Jul 2, 2003

chanterhanson said:
Dearest Jeff:

Christ is in our midst! Open your eyes.

Think: What if the good Bishop reads your posts? He has a computer. You've given enough information that he could find your identity.

I guess you should stay away from the good Bishop. He believes in the Rudder as upholding Orthodox Tradition. The Rudder simply lists the Holy Canons of the Holy Orthodox Church.

Are you saying that you don't want to read and even know the Holy Canons? Are you somehow against Tradition? Have you fallen into the sola scriptura camp?

Just some questions to get you thinking.

YSIC
Elizabeth

I am not against Tradition, but the Rudder is not the Gospel, and legalism be it in the form of the Rudder or not is still legalism. I have no interest in being a canon lawyer, as it is dry as dust. I was told along with those who came into the Church with me not to worry to much about the Rudder. And do you follow all those canons? How can you be a cantor if you are a female? That would not fly in my parish at all.
Jeff the Finn

Caedmon · Jul 2, 2003

Philip said:
Doesn't the giving of a penance presume that ther person has completely repented?

Exactly... And if I am correct, reconciliation brings one back to God. So would God have a man brought back to Him, only to be denied His Communion?! That seems illogical to me.

MariaRegina · Jul 2, 2003

humblejoe said:
Exactly... And if I am correct, reconciliation brings one back to God. So would God have a man brought back to Him, only to be denied His Communion?! That seems illogical to me.

Dearest Humblejoe:

Christ is in our midst!

In the early Church, when a penitent confessed his sins with tears of repentance, he would do penance for his sins. He accepted the penance willingly as a sign of his repentance. The Holy Canons of the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church specified how long a penance was to be. (i.e. Seven years for visiting a soothsayer or fortune teller.) These Holy Canons are still used today within Orthodoxy but charitably modified (no more prostrators). However, the Roman Catholic Church in 1917 modified these canons when it issued the Code of Canon Law (done largely by the future PP XII). These Canons were further modified in 1983 and now they are out-of-date again, as a result of developing theology within the Catholic Church.

Even in the Roman Catholic Church today a penance is given by the priest-confessor, however, the RCC has made Holy Confession easy today. Usually just three Hail Marys or a charitable act at the sole discretion of the Roman Catholic priest. Only in cases of abortion is the Roman Catholic Church usually strict in demanding a time of penance and reconciliation, and understandably so.

On the other hand, the Orthodox Church is considered a dinosaur by some because we don't believe that theology and sacramental practices can develop. Hence the Orthodox have a more ancient faith, once delivered, to all people at all times, which is the meaning of Catholic. The Orthodox Church is therefore strict and more demanding of her faithful.

Hope this helps.

YSIC
Elizabeth

MariaRegina · Jul 2, 2003

jeffthefinn said:
The Rudder is not the Gospel, and I think that if we proscribe people from visiting other churches, we are in the same camp as the JW's and that is not good. I have never heard of anyone prohibited from visiting other churches.
Jeff the Finn

Then have a sincere talk with the good Bishop the next time he visits your church.

CopticOrthodox · Jul 2, 2003

Who is 'the good Bishop' you keep mentioning? I haven't seen a name, sorry if I missed it. The cannons still apply, but they have to be applied to the situation, not applied blindly. Modern Catholics and Protestants are neither heretics nor schismatics, they're simply part of organizations in heresy or schism. The difference is that they are not people who willfully separated themselves from the one Church and refused to repent and return, they are people who for generations have been born into their Churches and live in them as all they know. Now they are our separated brothers and sisters, spearated by the sins of their and our fathers hundreds of years ago, not people who are themselves engaging in schism & heresy, not themselves rebelling against the Church. So a great deal of leaway in applying the Cannons is currently being used since the cannons were not written with such a situation in mind.

Respectfully, Unless you are a priest you should not be telling people what they should do in these situations, and unless you are a bishop you should not be interpretting how the cannons should be aplied in broad applications accross the Church. None of us are qualified to do any of this, so we should err on the side of caution and assume that if our Fathers have given us different instructions, it's for our own circumstances, and not try to think that the way we're told to do things is the way or the norm and that others are in error.

MariaRegina · Jul 2, 2003

jeffthefinn said:
I am not against Tradition, but the Rudder is not the Gospel, and legalism be it in the form of the Rudder or not is still legalism. I have no interest in being a canon lawyer, as it is dry as dust. I was told along with those who came into the Church with me not to worry to much about the Rudder. And do you follow all those canons? How can you be a cantor if you are a female? That would not fly in my parish at all.
Jeff the Finn

Dearest Jeff:

I am allowed to chant in my church; however, we are not tonsured. I have seen female chanters in all the jurisdictions, even in the old calendarists such as HOCNA and ROR which allows the nuns to chant.

However we are way off topic. Back to praying, images and statues:

Check out the good humble Bishop in charge of the OCA, he prefers not to be named over the Internet. If you ask him about visiting a Protestant or Catholic Church, he will give you a piece of his mind, claro que si, and he will quote the Holy Canons, which we laity need not memorize nor own, but which we are expected to obey as much as we are able.

YSIC

Elizabeth

MariaRegina · Jul 2, 2003

Dear Coptic Christian:

Please take a course in logic and critical thinking. I really cannot follow your arguments along with your judgmental statements.

Please let's be charitable and logical in all our writings.

Now back to Statues, Images.

YSIC

Elizabeth

MariaRegina · Jul 2, 2003

To all Christians of good will:

Christ is in our midst!

Re: Icons and Statues

Not too long ago a Catholic company contacted me and asked if I would be interesting in buying a perpetual calendar in which you could keep tract of days people died as well as birthdays. I mentioned that I was Orthodox and that a lot of Catholics were expressing interest in icons.

So guess what happened?

They produced a lovely calendar that is loaded with Icons!

In fact, icons are more popular with Catholics now than with the Orthodox.

Is this a sign that we will one day be one?

Your Sister in Christ,

Elizabeth

Reader Nilus · Jul 2, 2003

Goodness even my priest when he drives across the country to visit his in-laws will stop at a Lutheran Church if there is no Orthodox Temple near if it is on Sunday. I am with CopticOrthodox The canons of the Rudder are best left in compentant hands, and they are not applied as law, and many of them fall under what we would consider a small t tradition and they were addressing things that do not exist today.
She is I think referring to His Grace Bishop Tikhon of the Diocese of the West, in the OCA.
Jeff the Finn

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