Statues and Images....

[jukesk9]

Well, I'm still struggling over which Icon I'm going to purchase.  My wife *sigh* needs to make sure the one we get will "go with" the colors in the kitchen.  Please, like that matters.

Anyway, I was reading from The Handbook of Denominations (or something similar to that title) at Barnes and Noble this morning about the Orthodox Church.  And according to this book, the Orthodox Church does not permit the 3D carvings, statues, etc.  It did not elaborate but rather talked about using Icons instead.  So why no statues.  I thought the Orthodox Church had them.  I guess the Orthodox Church wouldn't use a crucifix either?

 

[CopticOrthodox]

Icons and statues aren't really equivalent things. Statues in a Catholic Church are there for education, to call the mind to heaven, to help focus prayer, etc. But they're just statues, there's nothing to them other than being statues. Icons are more than that. They have to be written in a very specific way. The person writting them must do the appropriate fasting, and must first paint all the dark colours, progressing to the lighter ones. When they are ready, icons (for use in Churches) must be consecrated by a bishop. They become prayer in wood and paint. They become windows to heaven. Also, statues are just representations of the person they depict, like a portrait, but icons asn't like this. They are not meant to "look like" the way the saint physically looked. They're meant to be a visual expression of theology and biography, which is why we say they are written and not painted. For example, a long beard doesn't necessarily mean the person had a long beard, but that they were great in their asceticism, a long forhead represents wisdom, etc. They are always peaceful, since they are connecting us to someone who is in heaven, and has finished thier strife. So a statue really isn't a suitable substitute for icons. Also, while statues are not needed in a Catholic Church, our icons are not optional. There must be at least the minium icons on the iconostasis, and if the Liturgy must be celebrated somewhere else (eg for construction), icons are taken too. No, there isn't a crucifix in an Orthodox Church, but there is always an icon of the Crucifixion above the icon of the Last Supper, above the door to the sanctuary.

 

[jukesk9]

That was very informative. Thank you.

 

[MissytheButterfly]

Wow, that was interesting.. very informative post !

Missy

 

[Miss Shelby]

1st April 2003 at 03:34 PM jukesk9 said this in Post #1

Well, I'm still struggling over which Icon I'm going to purchase.  My wife *sigh* needs to make sure the one we get will "go with" the colors in the kitchen.  Please, like that matters.

It matters, jukes.

Michelle

 

[jukesk9]

I guess that's why my velvet John Wayne didn't make it from the Bachelor Pad....

 

[Miss Shelby]

My husband shot an albino pheasant when he was a kid and he had it stuffed. When we got married he wanted to keep that thing in the living room. LOL! I said no flipping way!

Michelle

 

[MissytheButterfly]

Hey Jukes, why don't you try to kinda hint around to find out what your wife is interested in ask her specific questions very casually or say you heard about a certain icon (blah, blah, blah) and was wondering what she thought.. you gotta be creative with a woman.. LOL! .. like if a certain icon of something is her favorite, get a really really awesome one like that.. one that would take her breath away. She will definitely appreciate the thought behind it and the fact that she didn't have to actually come right out and tell you.

Also if you go to the store ask the clerk or know some other ladies like your mother-in-law, a close friend of hers you could ask what exactly goes with your kitchen scheme, that way you will be sure to get a good match.

By the way, I think it's pretty cool that you want to please your wife.. so don't say things like "like the kitchen matters" because it does apparently to your wife.. and frankly, I think it rocks you even care.. some husband's couldn't care less..

Missy

 

[sklippstein]

3rd April 2003 at 10:55 AM Miss Shelby said this in Post #7

My husband shot an albino pheasant when he was a kid and he had it stuffed. When we got married he wanted to keep that thing in the living room. LOL! I said no flipping way!

Michelle

EWWWWWWWW

 

[Miss Shelby]

Tell me about it, slip.  That thing had red eyeballs.    Very few things did I ever exercise my authority on, but that was one of them.

Michelle

 

[MissytheButterfly]

Bleh! LOL!

Missy

 

[MariaRegina]

No, there isn't a crucifix in an Orthodox Church, but there is always an icon of the Crucifixion above the icon of the Last Supper, above the door to the sanctuary.

My dearest joy in Christ: Christ is Risen!

Within Eastern Orthodoxy, there are at least two depictions of the crucifixion. The crucifix (especially the processional cross) depicts Christ peacefully resting on the Cross in icon style. Sometimes I have also seen a more western cross used in processionals. There is also an icon of the crucifixion with Mary the Theotokos and John the Evangelist standing beneath the cross. This is usually the cross which is used above the Altar doors on the Iconostasis.

YSIC

Elizabeth

 

[Maximus]

Here's a question for you all, but I must introduce it first.

I often go for walks and take my baby daughter Anna in her stroller. We always walk through the grounds of the local Roman Catholic Church. Sometimes I sit on a bench near the Stations of the Cross and a very beautiful flower garden. It is peaceful and I get a wonderful feeling there.

I make the Sign of the Cross because I know the Body of Christ is present in the Church.

There is a statue of Our Lady and I often stop and address a prayer to Mother Mary before it. It feels great.

I know we don't generally use statues in the Orthodox Church, so here's the question:

Am I doing something wrong?

If so, please cite some authority that says so.

 

[CopticOrthodox]

I don't think so. We don't use them liturgucally, but there's no rule against personal use. The book store at my church sells some small Catholic statues. Icons are so much more than statues, but I don't think there's anything wrong with praying before a statue, since there'd be nothing wrong with praying before nothing, right?

 

[Maximus]

I don't think so. We don't use them liturgucally, but there's no rule against personal use. The book store at my church sells some small Catholic statues. Icons are so much more than statues, but I don't think there's anything wrong with praying before a statue, since there'd be nothing wrong with praying before nothing, right?

Thanks, Coptic. That's what I thought, too. Besides, I am addressing Mother Mary, not the statue itself, which is made of painted cement (or something).

I know feeling isn't everything, but I do feel that she is there with me or that she sees me when I ask her to pray for me.

 

[Philip]

I don't think there is anything wrong with it, but I would be uncomfortable doing it. Probably some leftover Protestantism. I love icons. They appear much more heavenly than statues. Not sure if I can explain it any better than by saying, "Icons are better."

 

[Maximus]

I don't think there is anything wrong with it, but I would be uncomfortable doing it. Probably some leftover Protestantism. I love icons. They appear much more heavenly than statues. Not sure if I can explain it any better than by saying, "Icons are better."

I agree that icons are better.

Maybe statues are a bit like 3-D icons? (I understand the difference guys; so don't jump all over me!)

I can relate to the feeling of leftover Protestantism. I suffered from that for awhile. Now it feels so liberating to be able to venerate the Mother of God and the saints and to ask them to pray for me: even the statues don't bother me anymore!

 

[MariaRegina]

Here's a question for you all, but I must introduce it first.

There is a statue of Our Lady and I often stop and address a prayer to Mother Mary before it. It feels great.

I know we don't generally use statues in the Orthodox Church, so here's the question:

Am I doing something wrong?

My Dearest Joy, Maximus,

Christ is in our midst!

I am still relatively new in Orthodoxy as I was chrismated on April 6, 1996. However, I do know several young Orthodox priests who have blessed the statue of Our Lady of Fatima, or even the Icon of Our Lady of Guadalupe, when the senior Priest wasn't around. The priest knew that his parishioner wouldn't worship the statue. That's the real issue!

However, sin can occur when you knowingly or unknowingly cause someone to stumble. It could be a question of possibly scandalizing a new member in your parish or causing confused ecclesiology in a child. If that child grows up thinking that it is okay to visit a Roman Catholic Church, then she may think that it is okay to receive Communion in that church. So if she does receive communion in the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Priest learns about it, then there is a problem.

If the Orthodox Priest reprimands, at least four outcomes are possible:
(l) The person corrected could accept the penance and be forbidden to receive the Eucharist in the Orthodox Church for up to three years.
(2) When other parishioners find out about the penance, they could become upset and attack the priest or leave the church.
(3) The person corrected could become upset, lose the faith and stop attending church.
(4) The person corrected could join the Catholic or the Protestant Church.

I've known people in that situation who each chose one of the four scenarios listed. It's tragic to see someone leave the faith.

There is nothing wrong with passing through the garden, just don't linger. And yes, I think it is far better to have a picture or statue of Our Lady of Fatima in your home than one of Michael Jackson, M&M, or Marilyn Manson in your teen's bedroom, excuse the comparison.

YSIC

Elizabeth

 

[Reader Nilus]

Here's a question for you all, but I must introduce it first.

I often go for walks and take my baby daughter Anna in her stroller. We always walk through the grounds of the local Roman Catholic Church. Sometimes I sit on a bench near the Stations of the Cross and a very beautiful flower garden. It is peaceful and I get a wonderful feeling there.

I make the Sign of the Cross because I know the Body of Christ is present in the Church.

There is a statue of Our Lady and I often stop and address a prayer to Mother Mary before it. It feels great.

I know we don't generally use statues in the Orthodox Church, so here's the question:

Am I doing something wrong?

If so, please cite some authority that says so.

You are doing nothing wrong.
Jeff the Finn

 

[brewmama]

I read a few weeks ago in an Orthodox publication that statues are totally accepted in the Orthodox tradition and many beautiful statues from Russia are becoming known. It will take a while to track it down, (maybe next week at church) but I can if you want me to give you names and sources. I say relax and pray.