Star of wonder...

[Tellyontellyon]

The magi were able to understand the meaning of the stars and therefore to determine the birthplace of Jesus. However, modern Christians seem to shy away from astrology, despite it's role in one of the greatest events in the Christian story..

Why is this? Wey do modern Christians tend to reject astrology?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

The magi were able to understand the meaning of the stars and therefore to determine the birthplace of Jesus. However, modern Christians seem to shy away from astrology, despite it's role in one of the greatest events in the Christian story..

Why is this? Wey do modern Christians tend to reject astrology?

I reject astrology because I'm scientifically minded and that comes as a value in my thinking BEFORE I read a page of the Bible.

 

[jacks]

There isn't really a connection between the star the Magi followed and astrology. Except they are both things that may mention stars.

 

[PloverWing]

The magi were able to understand the meaning of the stars and therefore to determine the birthplace of Jesus. However, modern Christians seem to shy away from astrology, despite it's role in one of the greatest events in the Christian story..

Why is this? Wey do modern Christians tend to reject astrology?

I've thought about this on Epiphany in years past, as we hear the story of the Magi read in church.

Astrology is nonsense, for the reason @2PhiloVoid gave. I can't think of any mechanism that would let distant stars and planets affect our lives, beyond tiny bits of light and gravity. And yet, we're told that God worked through the stars to guide the Magi to Jesus.

What I take away from this story is that God is able to work through the nonsense that's in our heads -- our mistaken beliefs, and our incredibly limited understanding of the world -- God is able to reach through all this and use it to touch our lives and guide us.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

The magi were able to understand the meaning of the stars and therefore to determine the birthplace of Jesus. However, modern Christians seem to shy away from astrology, despite it's role in one of the greatest events in the Christian story..

Why is this? Wey do modern Christians tend to reject astrology?

In Christianity we are spiritually transformed daily and in the end become like the stars forever and ever.

Astrology and other forms of divination seem kind of pointless when we can just pray and ask God for guidance also.

 

[David Lamb]

The magi were able to understand the meaning of the stars and therefore to determine the birthplace of Jesus. However, modern Christians seem to shy away from astrology, despite it's role in one of the greatest events in the Christian story..

Why is this? Wey do modern Christians tend to reject astrology?

If the magi were able to determine the birthplace of Jesus, they would not have gone to Herod in Jerusalem asking, "Where is He who is born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East (not, incidentally, "we have followed His star from the East" - according to the bible, the star led them from Jerusalem to the house in Bethlehem where Jesus then was) and are come to worship Him." We are not told that they practised astrology.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

The magi were able to understand the meaning of the stars and therefore to determine the birthplace of Jesus. However, modern Christians seem to shy away from astrology, despite it's role in one of the greatest events in the Christian story..

Why is this? Wey do modern Christians tend to reject astrology?

Additionally, being that I'm scientifically (and hence academically) minded as a priority in both my hermeneutics and my praxis, I'm going to approach the topic of your OP, if I were to engage it at all, in a fashion fitting for the study of the Humanities and History.

In the case of the topic of astrology and the Magi, I am open to bringing in historical and cultural evidences for elaboration and further consideration, such as what has been provided by Michael Heiser and other scholars and/or inquirers of intiquities. In the following video (which is one among many of this sort that can be found easily enough on youtube), Heiser explains the value that a Jewish form of astrology may have had among some ancient Jewish people.

One of the main points in the video is that ancient Jewish views on astrology were different in structure than those of their more Eastern/Asian counterparts:

What Do The Magi and The Dead Sea Scrolls Have In Common? - (Dr. Michael S. Heiser)​

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But as for myself, although the sort of historical study that Heiser offers is all well and good, if I wanted to give the account of the Magi in the Gospel of Matthew even the slightest nod of acknowledgment of historical possibility, then I would do it via considerations in ASTRONOMY, not astrology. This means I would research, as far as I could, the relevance of the data that is collectively at hand and presented within the bastions of modern science (and history).

The following video from the BBC productions is an example of the sort of evidence I might ponder as but one factor in evaluating any significance there may be in the account of the Magi in Matthew:

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BBC The Sky at Night - The Real Star of Bethlehem: A Christmas Special​

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[Tellyontellyon]

I have got the sense, forgive me if I'm mistaken, that people who are Christians tend to have beliefs that extend beyond what science has to offer. I.e. miracles, supernatural events, invisible beings that can come in and out of physical existence, meaningful connections between events that are not physically/scientifically related, prophecies of all all sorts, and events in the sky that are messages from God etc. etc.

It's strange to hear Christians claiming an allegiance to science to reject astrology (and related ideas).. while at the same time rejecting holding beliefs that are scientifically unaccountable...?

What gives... You think Christianity is science?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I have got the sense, forgive me if I'm mistaken, that people who are Christians tend to have beliefs that extend beyond what science has to offer. I.e. miracles, supernatural events, invisible beings that can come in and out of physical existence, meaningful connections between events that are not physically/scientifically related, prophecies of all all sorts, and events in the sky that are messages from God etc. etc.

It's strange to hear Christians claiming an allegiance to science to reject astrology (and related ideas).. while at the same time rejecting holding beliefs that are scientifically unaccountable...?

What gives... You think Christianity is science?

I didn't say that I "believe" in the Christmas star. I merely offered evidence for considerations----not proof----of how and why someone like the ancient writer, "Matthew," may have thought the report he heard about some celestial phenomenon manifesting about the time Jesus was born seemed to have cogency in his Jewish mind as a form of prophetic fulfillment.

This is how historical investigation today begins. I said NOTHING about MY OWN belief. One can then ask why some other Christian, like the author of the Gospel of Luke, didn't include the Christmas star in his account about Jesus.

By the way..................have you had time to at least peruse the video content that I posted to see what it was about?

 

[Tellyontellyon]

I didn't say that I "believe" in the Christmas star. I merely offered evidence for considerations----not proof----of how and why someone like the ancient writer, "Matthew," may have thought the report he heard about some celestial phenomenon manifesting about the time Jesus was born seemed to have cogency in his Jewish mind as a form of prophetic fulfillment.

This is how historical investigation begins. I said NOTHING about MY OWN belief. One can then ask why some other Christian, like the author of the Gospel of Luke, didn't include the Christmas star in his account about Jesus.

By the way..................have you had time to at least peruse the video content that I posted to see what it was about?

Pardon me... I was asking Christians in particular about their beliefs.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Pardon me... I was asking Christians in particular about their beliefs.

Yes, and I'm telling you have I, as a Christian, approach the Bible. My way of thinking is only awkward to those who assume that to have faith, that one supposedly has to start with the Bible and then Gerry-rig everything else about the universe into an ancient biblical paradigm.

Yeah. I don't do that. I appraise the diverse, ancient biblical literature in the terms of a historian rather than a spiritualist. So, now I am describing my own Christian belief, and there's a lot of educated reasoning that goes into it.

 

[Tellyontellyon]

Yes, and I'm telling you have I, as a Christian, approach the Bible. My way of thinking is only awkward to those who assume that to have faith, that one supposedly has to start with the Bible and then Gerry-rig everything else about the universe into an ancient biblical paradigm.

Yeah. I don't do that. I appraise the diverse, ancient biblical literature in the terms of a historian rather than a spiritualist. So, now I am describing my own Christian belief, and there's a lot of educated reasoning that goes into it.

Thank you, but I'm looking for a more mainstream, general Christian perspective, rather than your idiosyncratic (though just as valid) point of view.
All due respect, but you are a bit of an outlier among Christians generally speaking so you have atypical reasons for agreeing/ disagreeing with what Christians generally believe.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Thank you, but I'm looking for a more mainstream, general Christian perspective, rather than your idiosyncratic (though just as valid) point of view.
All due respect, but you are a bit of an outlier among Christians generally speaking so you have atypical reasons for agreeing/ disagreeing with what Christians generally believe.

Oh. Well then, Ok.

 

[Just Somebody]

Thank you, but I'm looking for a more mainstream, general Christian perspective, rather than your idiosyncratic (though just as valid) point of view.
All due respect, but you are a bit of an outlier among Christians generally speaking so you have atypical reasons for agreeing/ disagreeing with what Christians generally believe.

While 2PhilioVoid may use more intellectual language than the majority of Christians and non-Christian , I don't think his approach is really that atypical. As with all areas, the loudest voices, often don't represent the majority, and I'd argue ChristianForums is proof of this. The views & voices that are the loudest here are completely unrepresentative of most of the Christians I've know over the 50 odd years I've been in the Christian community.

 

[Tellyontellyon]

While 2PhilioVoid may use more intellectual language than the majority of Christians and non-Christian , I don't think his approach is really that atypical. As with all areas, the loudest voices, often don't represent the majority, and I'd argue ChristianForums is proof of this. The views & voices that are the loudest here are completely unrepresentative of most of the Christians I've know over the 50 odd years I've been in the Christian community.

Well, I'd love to here what you think of the op.. In your own way of putting things naturally.

 

[Just Somebody]

Well, I'd love to here what you think of the op.. In your own way of putting things naturally.

The magi were able to understand the meaning of the stars and therefore to determine the birthplace of Jesus. However, modern Christians seem to shy away from astrology, despite it's role in one of the greatest events in the Christian story..

Why is this? Wey do modern Christians tend to reject astrology?

Well it's pretty clear in the Bible that astrology is wrong. As an example, it would fall Deuteronomy 18:9-14

"9 “When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, be very careful not to imitate the detestable customs of the nations living there. 10 For example, never sacrifice your son or daughter as a burnt offering.[a] And do not let your people practice fortune-telling, or use sorcery, or interpret omens, or engage in witchcraft, 11 or cast spells, or function as mediums or psychics, or call forth the spirits of the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord. It is because the other nations have done these detestable things that the Lord your God will drive them out ahead of you. 13 But you must be blameless before the Lord your God. 14 The nations you are about to displace consult sorcerers and fortune-tellers, but the Lord your God forbids you to do such things.”

To answer your question further. There no evidence that astrology has any basis in fact. The fact that God guided the magi to the birthplace of Christ in no way implies that the magi were in general able to gain any other truth from astrology. The "star" they say may or may not have been miraculous, we really have no idea.

Christians gain guidance through the Holy Spirit living in us, working the the "normal" e.g. our thoughts & emotions, the people around us, the Bible, rather than miraculous signs or through the paranormal. Getting specific direction (like the Magi received)., would fall into the unusual, rather than the typical experience of Christians.

 

[Tellyontellyon]

Well it's pretty clear in the Bible that astrology is wrong. As an example, it would fall Deuteronomy 18:9-14

"9 “When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, be very careful not to imitate the detestable customs of the nations living there. 10 For example, never sacrifice your son or daughter as a burnt offering.[a] And do not let your people practice fortune-telling, or use sorcery, or interpret omens, or engage in witchcraft, 11 or cast spells, or function as mediums or psychics, or call forth the spirits of the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord. It is because the other nations have done these detestable things that the Lord your God will drive them out ahead of you. 13 But you must be blameless before the Lord your God. 14 The nations you are about to displace consult sorcerers and fortune-tellers, but the Lord your God forbids you to do such things.”

To answer your question further. There no evidence that astrology has any basis in fact. The fact that God guided the magi to the birthplace of Christ in no way implies that the magi were in general able to gain any other truth from astrology. The "star" they say may or may not have been miraculous, we really have no idea.

Christians gain guidance through the Holy Spirit living in us, working the the "normal" e.g. our thoughts & emotions, the people around us, the Bible, rather than miraculous signs or through the paranormal. Getting specific direction (like the Magi received)., would fall into the unusual, rather than the typical experience of Christians.

There seem to be a lot of things that were deemed wrong in the OT that nevertheless became acceptable under Jesus and afterwards.

The 'wise men' or magi weren't simply given a message and sent like the shepherds, they seemed to have knowledge and wisdom and also got further instruction through dreams, as did Peter. The Holy Spirit (God) seems to to have many ways to communicate, whether it's dreams, stars, rainbows, the wise reckoning of numbers (Revelation) or angels or blinding lights or voices or inner conviction etc. I haven't seen anything in the Bible to suggest that God has restricted himself as to how he communicates, or by science and the material world that he is deemed to be the creator and ruler of.
Sure, inner conviction and thoughts are the most everyday ways. But you can't say that that hardly ever happens as there are many Christians who have experiences that suggest that it is not as rare as you say.

 

[David Lamb]

Thank you, but I'm looking for a more mainstream, general Christian perspective, rather than your idiosyncratic (though just as valid) point of view.
All due respect, but you are a bit of an outlier among Christians generally speaking so you have atypical reasons for agreeing/ disagreeing with what Christians generally believe.

Well, I can say that I as a Christian believe the bible to be God's infallible word. That word does not tell us that the wise men were astrologers. Indeed, the bible when it mentions astrologers does so in a negative way, as for example in Isaiah 47, speaking of the coming destruction of Babylon:

“You are wearied in the multitude of your counsels; Let now the astrologers, the stargazers, And the monthly prognosticators Stand up and save you From what shall come upon you.” (Isa 47:13 NKJV)

According to the bible, the wise men saw a special star, which God used to tell them about the birth of Jesus, and later to guide them from Jerusalem to the house in Bethlehem where Jesus was by the time they got there. He was no longer in the manger.

 

[Tellyontellyon]

Well, I can say that I as a Christian believe the bible to be God's infallible word. That word does not tell us that the wise men were astrologers. Indeed, the bible when it mentions astrologers does so in a negative way, as for example in Isaiah 47, speaking of the coming destruction of Babylon:

“You are wearied in the multitude of your counsels; Let now the astrologers, the stargazers, And the monthly prognosticators Stand up and save you From what shall come upon you.” (Isa 47:13 NKJV)

According to the bible, the wise men saw a special star, which God used to tell them about the birth of Jesus, and later to guide them from Jerusalem to the house in Bethlehem where Jesus was by the time they got there. He was no longer in the manger.

Stargazers? Mmm, I wonder.. Do Christians also object to astronomy and navigation by the stars?
The OT had some wild rules!

 

[David Lamb]

Stargazers? Mmm, I wonder.. Do Christians also object to astronomy and navigation by the stars?
The OT had some wild rules!

No of course not! The word translated into English as "stargazers" referred to people who sought to tell the future by looking at the stars. There are other places in the bible where ordinary looking at the stars is not condemned, for example:

“Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."” (Ge 15:5 NKJV)

The Old Testament does not forbid looking at the stars. Indeed, concerning the creation and purposes of the sun, moon and stars, Genesis tells us:

“Then God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; "and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth"; and it was so. Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. [He made] the stars also.” (Ge 1:14-16 NKJV)

How could they be signs if people were forbidden to look at the,?