Star of David - Is it disrespectful?

[arunma]

arunma, I don't believe a Muslim worships the same God - they only think they do - so many years of deception - it's horrible. I believe that the Muslim "religion" was invented by the man known as Muhammed to make a name for himself, and that it has evolved into a convoluted mess of demonic confusion. Islam is an aberration, a synretic mess. YES, the Jewish understanding of God is wayyyyyyy closer to Christianity than the Muslim understanding. I'd better quit now.....

Well, hold on, don't quit just yet. You say that Mohammed created a new religion, but I could say precisely the same thing about Maimmonides, Rashi, and the many other Jewish rabbis who shaped Judaism after the religion of the Israelites was passed on to the church.

I don't see how the Jewish understanding of God is any closer to Christianity than the Muslim understanding, and I'm sure that many of our Jewish friends over here will agree. Jews deny the Trinity. That's an enormous deviation from our faith. Anyone who doesn't accept Yahweh as the triune God can't possibly understand his true nature, as revealed in the Christian religion (assuming that the Christian understanding is true by default). Jews and Muslims equally disbelieve this most important and ancient doctrine.

Besides that, the entire philosophy of Judaism and Christianity are different. Jews are universalists, but Christians hold that God can only be known through Jesus Christ. The idea that Jews and Christians worship the same God seems more like PC Roman Catholic theology (see the Catechism, it's somewhere close to paragraph 840).

 

[BourbonFromHeaven]

Hiya Arunma

Well, hold on, don't quit just yet. You say that Mohammed created a new religion, but I could say precisely the same thing about Maimmonides, Rashi, and the many other Jewish rabbis who shaped Judaism after the religion of the Israelites was passed on to the church.

I vigriously disagree on this subject

I don't see how the Jewish understanding of God is any closer to Christianity than the Muslim understanding, and I'm sure that many of our Jewish friends over here will agree. Jews deny the Trinity. That's an enormous deviation from our faith.

Jewish and Muslim understanding of God are pretty close and since both deny the Trinity, as you said, puts quite the sizeable divider between us. You brought it down to brass tacks ( Which you are good at ) and I can only agree.

Now do we worship the same God? I can't say for sure. I am not convinced the Trinity is monotheism, however, Christians asure me it is, and I don't make a buisness out of telling other people what they believe, so if a Christian tells me he is a monotheist, then I have no reason to doubt that.

Anyone who doesn't accept Y-h-w-h as the triune God can't possibly understand his true nature, as revealed in the Christian religion (assuming that the Christian understanding is true by default). Jews and Muslims equally disbelieve this most important and ancient doctrine.

Again, I agree. Small note thats wildly off topic. Where did you get the vowels for God's name?

Besides that, the entire philosophy of Judaism and Christianity are different. Jews are universalists, but Christians hold that God can only be known through Jesus Christ.

I think it boils down to, both faiths have an entirely different method at arriveing at theological truths, as to which method is superior is up for debate.

 

[arunma]

I vigriously disagree on this subject

Of course you do, but since the "true religion" is a matter of faith, it's not something that I would debate. You could say that Jesus and his apostles invented a religion, just as I could say that the rabbis invented a religion. We both believe that the religion of the Israelites was true, but we clearly disagree over who inherited that religion. But again, unless a prophet appears, there's no way we can make any accurate statements, short of invoking faith.

Jewish and Muslim understanding of God are pretty close and since both deny the Trinity, as you said, puts quite the sizeable divider between us. You brought it down to brass tacks ( Which you are good at ) and I can only agree.

Well, I do happen to be a physics student. Brass tacks are about the only thing I'm interested in these days. Anyway, I'd agree that Jewish and Muslim theology are probably closer to each other than either are to Christian theology. If I were a polytheist, I'd probably say that Jews and Muslims worship the same god before I'd conclude that either group worships a common god with Christians.

Now do we worship the same God? I can't say for sure. I am not convinced the Trinity is monotheism, however, Christians asure me it is, and I don't make a buisness out of telling other people what they believe, so if a Christian tells me he is a monotheist, then I have no reason to doubt that.

I suppose this depends on your definition of monotheism. According to my Christian definition, the Trinity certainly is monotheism, since Trinitarian doctrine requires a belief in only one God. But since he reveals himself in three Persons, it might not fit the Jewish/Islamic definition of monotheism. I suppose it boils down to whether or not you require one god to consist of one person.

Small note thats wildly off topic. Where did you get the vowels for God's name?

Well, it's just a wild guess. Granted, it's a wild guess which happens to have become the standard convention among Christians, but it doesn't have much of a basis in fact. I'm of the opinion that Yahweh doesn't care if I add the wrong vowels.

I think it boils down to, both faiths have an entirely different method at arriveing at theological truths, as to which method is superior is up for debate.

Well I would say that our different approaches to systematic theology are one of many reasons that Judaism and Christianity are highly dissimilar religions. But I agree that the superiority of either system is beyond the scope of this discussion. Once again, this is a matter of faith. And I prefer not to invoke faith when engaging in discussions or debates that ought to be based in logic and reason.

 

[linchen]

There are times and conditions where one might. When the Nazi troops in Denmark demanded that all Jews in Denmark wear a Star of David, the King of Denmark wore one the next day. As did many Christians in his country. Probably many non-Christian non-Jews as well.

I'd like to think I would have, though it must have been a scary form of non-violent protest. But it worked. The Jews of Denmark were not systematically rounded up and sent to camps.

Hat off to the people who had that kind of courage and integrity!

 

[arunma]

Hat off to the people who had that kind of courage and integrity!

I agree completely. I only vaguely remember reading about this historical event, but this gesture was very much in step with the Gospel. I only wish that Christians in Europe had always been such good neighbors to the Jews.

 

[BourbonFromHeaven]

Hiya Arunma

Started typing out reasponses, then I realized you and I have been saying the same things back and forth to each other. No ground is gained if we keep agreeing on the same stuff

 

[BarbB]

It's not. However, if you renamed yourself Miriam, started dressing like a Hasidic woman and presented your beliefs as just part of "Judaism", then it is.



I've never seen it before. I grew kinda wary after the "James brother of Jesus" box turned out to be nothing.



Absolutely none taken

This symbol was found under a Greek monastery on Mt. Zion. I have the book in the car - when I get the strength (it's high 90's and humid out there ) I'll go get it and post the refs.

 

[BourbonFromHeaven]

This symbol was found under a Greek monastery on Mt. Zion. I have the book in the car - when I get the strength (it's high 90's and humid out there ) I'll go get it and post the refs.

No worries.

 

[BarbB]

No worries.

Thanks! Whew - I need a few more glasses of iced tea!

 

[bouncer]

Can you say the same thing about a Muslim? They also claim to worship the same God. I often wonder why many Christians believe that the Jewish understanding of God is any closer to Christianity than the Muslim understanding.

I agree.

 

[arunma]

Hiya Arunma

Started typing out reasponses, then I realized you and I have been saying the same things back and forth to each other. No ground is gained if we keep agreeing on the same stuff

Yes, I think you're right. Well I'm not really that surprised. A Jew once told me that I take a Jewish approach to understanding Christianity. And indeed, I do find something quite valuable in the Jewish approach to theology, even though I don't believe in the Jewish religion.

 

[Shy21]

Well, hold on, don't quit just yet. You say that Mohammed created a new religion, but I could say precisely the same thing about Maimmonides, Rashi, and the many other Jewish rabbis who shaped Judaism after the religion of the Israelites was passed on to the church.

I don't see how the Jewish understanding of God is any closer to Christianity than the Muslim understanding, and I'm sure that many of our Jewish friends over here will agree. Jews deny the Trinity. That's an enormous deviation from our faith. Anyone who doesn't accept Yahweh as the triune God can't possibly understand his true nature, as revealed in the Christian religion (assuming that the Christian understanding is true by default). Jews and Muslims equally disbelieve this most important and ancient doctrine.

Besides that, the entire philosophy of Judaism and Christianity are different. Jews are universalists, but Christians hold that God can only be known through Jesus Christ. The idea that Jews and Christians worship the same God seems more like PC Roman Catholic theology (see the Catechism, it's somewhere close to paragraph 840).

I agree with you. I dont understand why people say that Christians and Jews worship the same G-d or that its the same religion. I honestly dont believe I worship the same G-d as Christians. I use to believe it because of the fact that we have the same "Old Convenant" The thing about that is that Christians and Jews view the "Old Convenant" in two entirely different ways. Basically I dont even think Christianity came from Judaism as many people say it does. I think Christians have the same "Old Convent" and thats about it.

 

[jlujan69]

Can you say the same thing about a Muslim? They also claim to worship the same God. I often wonder why many Christians believe that the Jewish understanding of God is any closer to Christianity than the Muslim understanding.

Indeed, this is something I've struggled to come to grips with. On the one hand, Jesus, the Apostles, and early believers were Jewish and Christianity does have Jewish roots. However, there are passages in NT that state, among other things, "....whoever has not the Son has not the Father" and others saying the same thing. My dispensationalist beliefs about Israel and the Church also causes me to tread very carefully in making any sort of definite determination in this matter.

 

[jlujan69]

You have to go back to their "Chosen People Ministries" days. They actualy got banned from sevreal Eastern Slavic countries becuase they would go to Jewish daycares and "Baptize" children without permission from anyone.

Today they have cleaned up their act and got the new tag "Jews for Jesus", but it's still the same crew I imagine. Their "prooftexts" are some of the worst I have seen, and messianics are notrious for shoddy scholarship ( Dr. James Trimm anyone?)

I see. Muchas gracias para tu informacion.

 

[arunma]

I agree with you. I dont understand why people say that Christians and Jews worship the same G-d or that its the same religion. I honestly dont believe I worship the same G-d as Christians. I use to believe it because of the fact that we have the same "Old Convenant" The thing about that is that Christians and Jews view the "Old Convenant" in two entirely different ways. Basically I dont even think Christianity came from Judaism as many people say it does. I think Christians have the same "Old Convent" and thats about it.

It seems that I tend to get more support from Jews than Christians on this issue, at least on this board.

I suppose there are two ways to look at it. Those of us who are monotheists hold that there is only one God. Thus, we could say that anyone who asserts monotheism worships the same God. That would includes all three Abrahamic religions, Native American religion, Hindus who reject polytheism, Bahais, and a few others. Of course, this view doesn't require Christians to believe that non-Christians are actually saved. The other way to look at this is to say that every religion which asserts a significantly different god worships its own god. Thus, Jews and Muslims would have one god, Christians our own God, and Hindus their own god(s) as well. I don't object to either view.

 

[Shy21]

Thus, Jews and Muslims would have one god, Christians our own God, and Hindus their own god(s) as well. I don't object to either view.

I dont know if I would agree that Jews and Muslim have one G-d together. Do you think Muslims and Jews worship the same G-d or that they both are talking of the same G-d? I think Allah says follow Muhammed's work(I am not sure) but if this is the case....then the Muslims dont follow the same G-d as the Jews because Jews only believe in G-d..our G-d never told us to follow Muhammed's work therefore I think we have a seperate G-d from the Muslims. Just as the Christian G-d tell them to follow Christ's work. Our G-d doesnt tell us to follow Christ or Muhammed's teaching. Our G-d tells us to follow only His work. So I dont consider Muslim and Jews following the same G-d.............

I dont know. Maybe I am wrong, but I think/view Muslims as following a different G-d from the Jewish just as I view Christians following a different G-d from the Jews.

Those of us who are monotheists hold that there is only one God.

.

I dont really believe that Christianity is a monotheist religion. That is just my opinion and how I see Christianity. I know it is considered one, but I dont see it.....but anyways thats entirely for another thread.

 

[arunma]

Well actually Shy, I was referring to those who call themselves monotheists. I suppose it's impossible to find a universal definition of monotheism, because most people differ in their understanding of the concept.

 

[Wayfarer]

arunma, I don't believe a Muslim worships the same God - they only think they do - so many years of deception - it's horrible. I believe that the Muslim "religion" was invented by the man known as Muhammed to make a name for himself, and that it has evolved into a convoluted mess of demonic confusion. Islam is an aberration, a synretic mess. YES, the Jewish understanding of God is wayyyyyyy closer to Christianity than the Muslim understanding. I'd better quit now.....

blessings
tal

Hmm, in all honesty, Islam seems much closer to Christianity in terms of spiritual belief than Christianity/Judaism.

 

[urnotme]

Messianics are quite a sore spot today. They have a long (well, since the 60s) history of deception. Yes, Jesus was Jewish, but what he taught isn't Jewish.

The Jewish people have a specific identity. It's who we are and we pride ourselves on it. It's how we endure. There are all kinds of different Jews in the world, while I may disagree with say, One of the Karaites on this board ( You listening Steveo?) We still agree on alot if not most fundamental beliefs about God. We are, in a sense, united by that.

The notion that Jesus died for anyone's sins is not a Jewish ideal or belief. So, when a Christian (vast majority of messianics are gentiles) grows a beard, puts a yarmulke on and glues a fish to the bottom of a Star of David, he is only fooling himself.

It's culture theft and dishonest.

Not if the messianic is jewish by birth. The first christians were jews and I don't think a jew who converts to christianity would be dishonest in wearing the messianic symbol.

 

[urnotme]

I agree with you. I dont understand why people say that Christians and Jews worship the same G-d or that its the same religion. I honestly dont believe I worship the same G-d as Christians. I use to believe it because of the fact that we have the same "Old Convenant" The thing about that is that Christians and Jews view the "Old Convenant" in two entirely different ways. Basically I dont even think Christianity came from Judaism as many people say it does. I think Christians have the same "Old Convent" and thats about it.

The first christians were jews and that's about it other than some common prophets.