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Struggles by Non-Christians
"Standing on the Edge"--a message for the forum.
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<blockquote data-quote="Freodin" data-source="post: 70539834" data-attributes="member: 1363"><p>Yes, then what? Well, atheism is a potential answer to that question. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>I am not trying to insult you, or attack you personally in any way. This is just a very general oppinion: I see the approach that you examplify here as a kind of subconscious desperation. You (the general, plural you of "Christians" and theists in general) feel the need to make others see the truth / validity of your postion. And you basically cannot do that.</p><p></p><p>Look at just what you did here: first you (the older, more experienced you - so I guess you did put <em>some</em> thought into it) presented an "argument", a reason, something to "think about it".</p><p>I did. I could say that I was very quick to discover the "flaw" in your reasoning, but fact is I have encountered this kind of reasoning before, and didn't have to think a lot about it now.</p><p></p><p>And the instant your "argument" is countered - not even shown false, just ineffective - you make a 180° turn, and now use <em>exactly the opposite</em> as an argument to "think about".</p><p></p><p></p><p>I have been a conscious atheist - meaning having really thought about this topic and rejected the claims - for over 30 years. Yes, I have considered this. And you know the conclusion that I have made from this question? If that is the case, then God has to decide how to "interact" with me. Nothing I can or will do has any effect on this. So why bother?</p><p></p><p>Interestingly, the Christians / theists - you included - seem to have to come to a completely different answer for this question.</p><p></p><p>Have <em>you</em> ever stopped to consider that perhaps God is the one who decided how he will interact with humans? If so, why do you bother to "help"? Don't you think that he is greater than you, and if he wanted an atheist like me to believe in him, he could find a way without people like you interfering?</p><p></p><p>See, I don't want to discourage you. I appreciate the intent behind your effort, to make people think, and perhaps find this "truth" that you propose.</p><p>But I also have to tell you that this "very human-centric" approach that you <em>must</em> follow by necessity is having quite the opposite effect on me.</p><p>If God really existed, had these "miraculous ways" and wanted to help people... he would certainly have a better way than what Christians have to offer.</p><p></p><p>Again, this isn't meant as an attack. I do not say that <em>everything</em> that Christians or Christianity (or any other form of theism) has to offer is bad.</p><p>But it is not "miraculous" or "divine" or "greater than humans". It is very human, in the good as well as in the bad.</p><p></p><p>But then what? Sorry, I cannot help you there. I don't know. Something that I, like many atheists, have said many times before: I don't know what would totally convince me. But God would know.</p><p>Perhaps the fact that he doesn't share this knowledge with his followers who try their best to approach us "lost souls" should give you something to think about.</p><p></p><p>I am sure that there are non-Christians out there who would find your approach more appealing, and I apologize that the first person who had to respond to your post would have to be a die-hard atheist like me.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Freodin, post: 70539834, member: 1363"] Yes, then what? Well, atheism is a potential answer to that question. ;) I am not trying to insult you, or attack you personally in any way. This is just a very general oppinion: I see the approach that you examplify here as a kind of subconscious desperation. You (the general, plural you of "Christians" and theists in general) feel the need to make others see the truth / validity of your postion. And you basically cannot do that. Look at just what you did here: first you (the older, more experienced you - so I guess you did put [I]some[/I] thought into it) presented an "argument", a reason, something to "think about it". I did. I could say that I was very quick to discover the "flaw" in your reasoning, but fact is I have encountered this kind of reasoning before, and didn't have to think a lot about it now. And the instant your "argument" is countered - not even shown false, just ineffective - you make a 180° turn, and now use [I]exactly the opposite[/I] as an argument to "think about". I have been a conscious atheist - meaning having really thought about this topic and rejected the claims - for over 30 years. Yes, I have considered this. And you know the conclusion that I have made from this question? If that is the case, then God has to decide how to "interact" with me. Nothing I can or will do has any effect on this. So why bother? Interestingly, the Christians / theists - you included - seem to have to come to a completely different answer for this question. Have [I]you[/I] ever stopped to consider that perhaps God is the one who decided how he will interact with humans? If so, why do you bother to "help"? Don't you think that he is greater than you, and if he wanted an atheist like me to believe in him, he could find a way without people like you interfering? See, I don't want to discourage you. I appreciate the intent behind your effort, to make people think, and perhaps find this "truth" that you propose. But I also have to tell you that this "very human-centric" approach that you [I]must[/I] follow by necessity is having quite the opposite effect on me. If God really existed, had these "miraculous ways" and wanted to help people... he would certainly have a better way than what Christians have to offer. Again, this isn't meant as an attack. I do not say that [I]everything[/I] that Christians or Christianity (or any other form of theism) has to offer is bad. But it is not "miraculous" or "divine" or "greater than humans". It is very human, in the good as well as in the bad. But then what? Sorry, I cannot help you there. I don't know. Something that I, like many atheists, have said many times before: I don't know what would totally convince me. But God would know. Perhaps the fact that he doesn't share this knowledge with his followers who try their best to approach us "lost souls" should give you something to think about. I am sure that there are non-Christians out there who would find your approach more appealing, and I apologize that the first person who had to respond to your post would have to be a die-hard atheist like me. [/QUOTE]
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