"Standing on the Edge"--a message for the forum.

Brianlear

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You are at the cross-roads. Standing on the edge of the known, gazing into the abyss. Beyond which is only true belief--letting go of your prior life and abandoning it to God. You may have spent your entire life thinking, there is no God. There is no help. It seems there is no one to help you take the leap. But then, did you know that a person appeared in the middle east a few thousand years ago, claiming to be exactly the person you need?

Think about that--a man appeared out of nowhere right under the nose of history's most epic empire. He claimed to BE God, and lived his entire life consistent with that claim, even as we killed him. The people who were close to him recorded him doing miraculous things, that, I could never prove, but it sure did motivate them to secretly record many of his teachings, then go underground for many years and then allow their recordings to surface after the "storm" was over (very intelligent move). His teachings then spawned a literal transformation of the planet, and a movement that shows no evidence of weakening in the slightest, thousands of years later. His message is the most epic of any claim ever made, that we can have eternal life, and, the most controversial part--that the only way to get it was through him.

So we have a bold claim, issued by a person, with a name--Yeshua, who by all historical accounts, was not in any way insane, confused, or egotistical. This is a person who grew up and learned to be a tradesmen/carpenter/laborer and was very good at it. He then proceeded to organize a small team of devoted individuals, took them on the road, and coordinated their travels across a large geographic area. He had a sharp wit and fiercely rebuked hypocritical religious men. This was not a weak, emaciated man, the likes of which we see in religious artwork. This was an energetic, intelligent man who knew exactly what he was doing.

I will say it again. He was not an egotistical self-identified "prophet". He was not schizophrenic. He was a clear headed, well spoken man who very consciously informed of us of who he was, and then proceeded to live his entire life without altering his story once, not even when tortured and killed.

Over thousands of years, we mistranslated his name, and now we call him "Jesus". It's good to know he had a real name though, and it is "Yeshua". It was a common name. 1 in 10 people of the time period were also named Yeshua. The funny thing? Knowing him, he probably wouldn't care what we called him.

So when you are out there, standing on the edge, asking for help...remember...that the help has already been here. God knew we would need help and he sent a person, a messenger. And this is a messenger who when you ask "What properties does this person have that would make me think, maybe they really are who they say they are"--he ticks every single box. Every single one. Think about it.
 
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Freodin

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Nice sales pitch. I don't want to go into the details, just the one thing that stood out to me...

And this is a messenger who when you ask "What properties does this person have that would make me think, maybe they really are who they say they are"--he ticks every single box. Every single one.
Really? What you are really saying here is: "He does have every property that I think should make you think."

And does he? So a further adjustment: "I claim that he does have every property that I think should make you think. So why don't you?"

Well, people can disagree which "boxes" he should tick, and which "boxes" he really does tick.

Think about it.
 
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Brianlear

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Yep I could have worded my statements more subjectively, but I'm not sure that would really change much of the meaning. Which boxes are left unticked for you?
For instance, you may just...not believe he is the Messiah. Very valid. A lot of Jews who ostensibly believe in the exact same God would agree with you.
But he said he was. So...is he a liar?
Or do you think someone wrote down the story wrong and put those words in his mouth?
I don't know for sure. I just believe him because it sounds true to me personally. It rings true given what I know and have experienced. I'm certainly open to any other possibility though, if it were to present itself. But until then, he ticks the box.
 
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Freodin

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Yep I could have worded my statements more subjectively, but I'm not sure that would really change much of the meaning.
Oh, I think there is quite a difference between an assertion of fact and an expression of oppinion, wouldn't you agree?

Which boxes are left unticked for you?
As I said before, I don't want to go into details here. If you are indeed interesting in my position, I will gladly provide, but I think it isn't fitting for just this thread.

For instance, you may just...not believe he is the Messiah. Very valid. A lot of Jews who ostensibly believe in the exact same God would agree with you.

But he said he was. So...is he a liar?
These Jews disagree. Are they liars?

I say that he "leaves boxes unticked" for me. Am I a liar?

Or do you think someone wrote down the story wrong and put those words in his mouth?
Is that inconceivable? Just look at the current events in the USA right now.

I don't know for sure. I just believe him because it sounds true to me personally. It rings true given what I know and have experienced. I'm certainly open to any other possibility though, if it were to present itself. But until then, he ticks the box.
Yes, you believe. It might conform with your knowledge and experience. He "ticks your box". That's fine.

He doesn't tick mine. That's all I am saying.
 
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Brianlear

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You seem to be a very independent, skeptical person who insists on asking the right questions. I see a lot of my younger self in you. You also are someone who is searching and seeking more answers than you currently have. I'm just trying to help. Have you ever stopped to consider that perhaps God is the one who decides how he will interact with humans, not us? Perhaps the idea of us having a checklist of items that the son of God "Must" satisfy, is very human-centric idea? If God is to be God, ultimate creator, at some point you may concede that he is greater than you, and some things you just may not understand until you leave this world.

Right now, you have some tools--reason, logic. Those can serve you well, but I sense that you have let the tables turn. Hence, why my initial post appealed heavily to logic and reason. You ironically (and correctly) recognized the error in my appeal. Logic won't work in this case. But then what? :)
 
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Freodin

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Yes, then what? Well, atheism is a potential answer to that question. ;)

I am not trying to insult you, or attack you personally in any way. This is just a very general oppinion: I see the approach that you examplify here as a kind of subconscious desperation. You (the general, plural you of "Christians" and theists in general) feel the need to make others see the truth / validity of your postion. And you basically cannot do that.

Look at just what you did here: first you (the older, more experienced you - so I guess you did put some thought into it) presented an "argument", a reason, something to "think about it".
I did. I could say that I was very quick to discover the "flaw" in your reasoning, but fact is I have encountered this kind of reasoning before, and didn't have to think a lot about it now.

And the instant your "argument" is countered - not even shown false, just ineffective - you make a 180° turn, and now use exactly the opposite as an argument to "think about".

Have you ever stopped to consider that perhaps God is the one who decides how he will interact with humans, not us?
I have been a conscious atheist - meaning having really thought about this topic and rejected the claims - for over 30 years. Yes, I have considered this. And you know the conclusion that I have made from this question? If that is the case, then God has to decide how to "interact" with me. Nothing I can or will do has any effect on this. So why bother?

Interestingly, the Christians / theists - you included - seem to have to come to a completely different answer for this question.

Have you ever stopped to consider that perhaps God is the one who decided how he will interact with humans? If so, why do you bother to "help"? Don't you think that he is greater than you, and if he wanted an atheist like me to believe in him, he could find a way without people like you interfering?

See, I don't want to discourage you. I appreciate the intent behind your effort, to make people think, and perhaps find this "truth" that you propose.
But I also have to tell you that this "very human-centric" approach that you must follow by necessity is having quite the opposite effect on me.
If God really existed, had these "miraculous ways" and wanted to help people... he would certainly have a better way than what Christians have to offer.

Again, this isn't meant as an attack. I do not say that everything that Christians or Christianity (or any other form of theism) has to offer is bad.
But it is not "miraculous" or "divine" or "greater than humans". It is very human, in the good as well as in the bad.

But then what? Sorry, I cannot help you there. I don't know. Something that I, like many atheists, have said many times before: I don't know what would totally convince me. But God would know.
Perhaps the fact that he doesn't share this knowledge with his followers who try their best to approach us "lost souls" should give you something to think about.

I am sure that there are non-Christians out there who would find your approach more appealing, and I apologize that the first person who had to respond to your post would have to be a die-hard atheist like me.
 
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Brianlear

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If God really existed, had these "miraculous ways" and wanted to help people... he would certainly have a better way than what Christians have to offer.
YOU think he would have a better way! I know it's a hard thing to do. I take no higher position here. I understand that you feel God has not revealed himself to you. Even as a "Christian" I feel the same way. I had an interesting thought the other day. I was having a bad day. And as I was praying to God to show me a little sign, just something small that would prove he was there--the following words/thought came to my brain--"I am the sign." Just those words. Who is the "I"? Is it me? Or is it God? Was he trying to tell me to "look around, the signs are everywhere"? I really don't know. God can be cryptic. What if you ARE the sign?
 
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1watchman

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Settled peace can be ours for salvation of the soul for eternity, and having communion with God and His blessings, enjoying that "peace that passeth all understanding", assurance of the Word of God as our only authority for the Christian faith; and this is what we need. It comes by not just reasoning in our feeble minds, but fully surrendering our will and mind to God and receiving His "...beloved Son" as our Savior and Lord of our life; then having the indwelling Holy Spirit we can be devoted to God in trust, and value His precious Word in the Bible (by a sound version that has been much studied over many years ---like the KJV). We "...must be born again" as God says to have any part in God ---see John 1; John 3; John 14; etc. to know the Lord personally.
 
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Freodin

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YOU think he would have a better way! I know it's a hard thing to do. I take no higher position here. I understand that you feel God has not revealed himself to you. Even as a "Christian" I feel the same way. I had an interesting thought the other day. I was having a bad day. And as I was praying to God to show me a little sign, just something small that would prove he was there--the following words/thought came to my brain--"I am the sign." Just those words. Who is the "I"? Is it me? Or is it God? Was he trying to tell me to "look around, the signs are everywhere"? I really don't know. God can be cryptic. What if you ARE the sign?
And what if not? What if these thoughts were... just thoughts?

Perhaps you are content with such a "cryptic" God. I can accept that. I can even (partially) understand that.

I am wondering though if you can understand that people like me are not quite convinced when someone comes up and says "hey, are you questioning? Are you 'on the edge'? Well, here is someone to help you. But this help is 'cryptic'".
 
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Brianlear

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Yep. I get it. And you aren't the only one that feels that way. Believing this story absolutely requires a gigantic suspension of disbelief. And to a much greater degree than the original disciples of the man experienced. If the story is true, then for them it would have been easy. Watch a miracle, become a believer. We are left 2000 years later with a God who, in many respects, seems silent. All I can say is, there are different ways to interpret silence. Maybe it's an exercise in which we are meant to participate, to learn how to believe without being slapped over the head with it. Maybe a lesson in subtlety of communication, or looking inwards to the soul. I really don't know. But I am interested in finding out.
 
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1watchman

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God is not silent and speaks to the heart and mind of true believers who are first "born again" (John 3) by the Holy Spirit within (others will miss that). He does not need to speak audibly as Jesus did, for He gave us all He wants us to know today in His immutable Word. Take it or leave it, but it will remain forever the mind of God ---even being opened in the day of judgment ---as He says, to show the fulfillment of what God has said now. One who just reads some of the Bible like other books and draws conclusions will be left to wonder and wander. The New Testament for the Church gives us a full picture to learn, trust, and follow as Redemption Way, Church Truth, and Spiritual Life (note also John 14:6).
 
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Freodin

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Yep. I get it. And you aren't the only one that feels that way. Believing this story absolutely requires a gigantic suspension of disbelief. And to a much greater degree than the original disciples of the man experienced. If the story is true, then for them it would have been easy. Watch a miracle, become a believer. We are left 2000 years later with a God who, in many respects, seems silent. All I can say is, there are different ways to interpret silence. Maybe it's an exercise in which we are meant to participate, to learn how to believe without being slapped over the head with it. Maybe a lesson in subtlety of communication, or looking inwards to the soul. I really don't know. But I am interested in finding out.
Well, perhaps it might be a better idea to "find out" first, before telling others that you have the perfect solution for them.

Just saying.
 
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