STAN LEE rises from the dead !!

[Anto9us]

It was Gwen Stacy -- herself believed to be long dead -- who first saw Stan the Man at the Tomb.

At first she thought he was the Gardener.

The graves of old Timely and even "Earth Two" DC superheroes opened up -- many rising from dead -- they went into Las Vegas and were seen by many.

The question -- "were Stan Lee's super-hero teams ORIGINAL or did he borrow ideas from old DC super-teams?"

All 4 original CHALLENGERS OF THE UNKNOWN were interviewed, they said "Yeah, Lee ripped off the foursome idea from us when he brought out FANTASTIC FOUR -- even the costumes were similar in a way".

CHALLENGERS were a steady, but never super-popular, DC group, all male, so Invisible Girl was ahead of her time in female super-heroines.

The old DC group the DOOM PATROL was even less spectacular - a band of misfit superheroes/heroeines led by an old guy IN A WHEELCHAIR -- does anyone doubt that Stan the Man ripped off the X-Men concept from DOOM PATROL?

It was SPIDERMAN who was Lee's crowning conception -- completely original to him -- the BLUE BEETLE may be the only hero based on anywhere near the same creature, he was from the old Charlton line; was even drawn by Steve Ditko for a while - the artist who drew Spiderman 1-37.

Gwen Stacy and Mary Jane Watson were close friends in the days when Peter Parker was in high school. She was killed by the Green Goblin but it was not possible that death could hold her.

 

[Petros2015]

I never heard about the DOOM PATROL and CHALLENGERS before lol. Sure looks suspicious.

Oh well, God bless him anyway

 

[RDKirk]

I was a fan of Challengers. There were four of them, but they had no super powers and wore loose coveralls similar to flight suits, not the spandex of the FF. They were just four guys who had adventures. The only similarity with the Fantastic Four is that there were four of them. That's like saying the original Defenders were a ripoff of The Three Musketeers.

 

[Citanul]

The Doom Patrol debuted three months before the X-Men. People with far more knowledge about these things say that's not enough time the X-Men to have been a copy of the Doom Patrol.

As for Blue Beetle, Steve Ditko drew him after he drew Spider-Man, and that version of the Blue Beetle was an inventor with no superpowers. And the earlier version of the Blue Beetle was a policeman also without superpowers (although he could gain super powers temporarily through the use of a mysterious vitamin). That character was revised by Charlton into an archaeologist who gained powers from a mystical scarab, and he transformed into the Blue Beetle by saying some magic words. So there's no similarity to Spider-Man.

 

[RDKirk]

The Doom Patrol debuted three months before the X-Men. People with far more knowledge about these things say that's not enough time the X-Men to have been a copy of the Doom Patrol.

It's remotely possible. There were a lot of people flowing back and forth between comics in the day, and it's not impossible that someone could have been on an early discussion at DC and shortly thereafter wound up working at Marvel.

But they were also all playing in a very small playground, and similar ideas were always bouncing around all over.

Were there, for instance, any wheelchair-bound fictional characters in any other media at the time, like Jeff Jefferies in "Rear Window" or even real persons like FDR?

Speaking of FDR, in the early 60s there were still significant people who had been struck by polio (which was the equivalent medical boogeyman to HIV when I was a child)--there may have been such people who were well-known movers and shakers in Manhattan at that time. Both wheelchair-bound characters might have been based on the same real person.

 

[Anto9us]

I was a kid when every class had a wheelchair-bound student - due to polio - which was just then being stamped out by vaccination; we all went to community center and got SUGAR CUBES of polio vaccine, long before there were sugar cubes of LSD, which in itself is b4 the times of many here.

I stand corrected of all yall who have poo-poo'ed my ideas of CHALLENGERS OF THE UNKNOWN and DOOM PATROL being influence on FF and X-Men.

All I know is -- as a kid at the newstand - I saw CHALLENGERS (4 guys with matching costumes) way before FF, and I saw DOOM PATROL however much earlier than X-Men, 3 months i dunno, but before is before.

Maybe the COSTUMES of FF vs Challengers is a stretch -- after all, Ben Grimm was a rock-orange thing in swim-trunks and Johnny Storm was in flames a lot of the times, and he of course was a reincarnation of the TIMELY Human Torch of the 40's.

I post to praise Stan Lee -- not to say he copy-catted anybody - even if he 'stole' concepts he turned CHALLENGERS and DOOM PATROL ideas from 'filler' super-hero groups to top-of-the-line groups.

I concede Ditko drew Blue Beetle later on, and the 'archaeologist' Blue Beetle was the first I remember.

Wheelchair-bound FDR is an interesting concept, RDKirk, and yes, we had many wheelchair people due to polio.

Stan's major contribution to comics was CONSISTeNCY, a Marvel Universe where all related to everything else.

In the DC world, the 'Golden Age' Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman (identical costumes, powers to modern ones) stayed the same when they reappeared; the golden age Flash and Green Lantern were different altogether - costumes, secret identities, etc.

DC's gambit to tie-in the golden age vs silver age heroes was due to Gardner Fox, who wrote stories of Flash, Hawkman, LJA and others. Fox said some of the stories actually came to him in his DREAMS.

From FLASH OF TWO WORLDS in the 60's - we got EARTH ONE AND EARTH TWO - DC's belated attempt at a cohesive universe.

Stan Lee maintained a cohesive universe from the beginning. Captain America was EXPLAINED _ in his golden age past - he was frozen -- thawed out by the Avengers after decades.

 

[Anto9us]

one of many such articles

 

[Anto9us]

Wait, did X-Men <i>really</i> rip off Doom Patrol? | CBR

 

[Anto9us]

The cover taglines: The Doom Patrol's "The World's Strangest Heroes!" versus The X-Men's "The Strangest Super-Heroes of All!" The Doom Patrol was the lead feature in My Greatest Adventure from Issue 80 (June 1963) to Issue 85 (February 1964) before the series was renamed The Doom Patrol the following issue (dated March 1964). Variations of the phrase appeared less prominently on those first few issues before becoming a full-fledged banner with The Doom Patrol #86.

"The Strangest Super-Heroes of All!" appeared at the top of the very first issue of The X-Men, dated September 1963.

The arch-enemies: The Doom Patrol's Brotherhood of Evil versus The X-Men's Brotherhood of Evil Mutants. Arteaga calls this "possibly, the most unnecessary thing" borrowed by The X-Men. However, Magneto's team of mutants debuted in The X-Men #4 while the Brain's group of misfits bowed in The Doom Patrol #86 -- both dated March 1964.

ibid

 

[Anto9us]

The only similarity with the Fantastic Four is that there were four of them.

The Challengers' costumes MATCHED, so did the FF, except for rock-orange Ben Grimm, and Human Torch when he was in flames.

 

[Anto9us]

Doom Patrol VS. X-Men (original lineups) : whowouldwin

original x-men contrasted with original Doom Patrol members

 

[Anto9us]

The Doom Patrol May Have Been a Rip-Off After All

in later years - the Challengers added a female character

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

How dare anyone accuse the mighty Stan Lee of copy catting.

 

[Citanul]

It's remotely possible. There were a lot of people flowing back and forth between comics in the day, and it's not impossible that someone could have been on an early discussion at DC and shortly thereafter wound up working at Marvel.

But they were also all playing in a very small playground, and similar ideas were always bouncing around all over.

Were there, for instance, any wheelchair-bound fictional characters in any other media at the time, like Jeff Jefferies in "Rear Window" or even real persons like FDR?

Speaking of FDR, in the early 60s there were still significant people who had been struck by polio (which was the equivalent medical boogeyman to HIV when I was a child)--there may have been such people who were well-known movers and shakers in Manhattan at that time. Both wheelchair-bound characters might have been based on the same real person.

I think the more likely scenario is that the idea came from a similar source (or it was just a coincidence). It was very much a Stan Lee thing to have a hero with a flaw/weakness, and it does fit to have someone with extremely powerful mental abilities to be physically impaired.

 

[Citanul]

The Challengers' costumes MATCHED, so did the FF, except for rock-orange Ben Grimm, and Human Torch when he was in flames.

Both were drawn by Jack Kirby, so maybe he was the one doing the copying...

 

[RDKirk]

The biggest contribution Stan Lee made (and this has been said often), is the presentation of superheroes with real-world, real-person problems in real-world societies that had their own real-world problems.

Ben Grimm, for instance, had to deal with neighborhood anti-Semites (yeah, I realized in the 60s that he was Jewish) as well as with the personal problems caused by his appearance and his weakened friendship to Reed Richards.

Whatever superficial similarity X-Men might have had with Doom Patrol, Stan Lee made their problems between each other and with their outside world very much relatable to what was really happening in the real world.

 

[Anto9us]

Definitely the syndrome of "super-heroes with PROBLEMS" was a great Stan Lee contribution, instead of the zero personality of Clark Kent - we had Peter Parker WORRYING about payments for his motorcycle, or worrying if Mary Jane was cuter than Gwen - we had Daredevil who was actually BLIND, but whose other senses made up for it.

Comic books was a genre where copy-catting was rampant anyway. I forget all the royalty battles about Captain Marvel, later appearing as Shazam, I remember one Marvel incarnation of Captain Marvel in a green and white costume; nothing like the original, and the movie world has a female Captain Marvel in the wings.

Stan Lee, I believe, has TWO MORE CAMEOS filmed yet not seen yet.
So Stan Lee lives on!!

I saw the VENOM movie last week, and felt that his cameo in that might be his last - not so.

DC comics very rarely had a comic book END with a TO BE CONTINUED scenario - I can think of one Hawkman 60's-70's comic that spanned 2 books, written by Gardener Fox, art by Murphy Anderson; and Crisis on Earth One/Crisis on Earth Two was the famous get-together of the Golden Age Justice SOCIETY of America with the modern Justice LEAGUE -- but Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman who existed on each earth -- that was very muddy and unclear. The CRISIS two-book tale was a classic, but really, a DC comic rarely ended in TO BE CONTINUED -- whereas Stan Lee ended almost EVERY ISSUE with a Cliff-Hanger.

In the first Avengers comic I ever read, Captain America was in mid-air, falling from a high building (with his hands tied behind his back) in the last panel. Next month, first page, he sees a FLAGPOLE while falling, grabs it with his legs, swings crashing through a window and goes his way. In that issue, the only Avengers were Cap, Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver (a guy who could run real fast)

DC had two of them (fast runners) from the Golden Age - Johnny Quick, and (the original Jay Garrick) Flash - whose "Hermes type helmet" somehow stayed on his head perfectly even when running past the speed of sound.

It was when Jay Garrick met Barry Allen in FLASH OF TWO WORLDS that Earth 1 and Earth 2 concept started.

Yes, Jack Kirby drew for both Challengers and Fantastic Four. Artists and writers hopped back and forth.

It was not a RIP OFF to bring Conan and Kull from decades-old Pulp stories of R E Howard into the comics. It was just an adaptation.

Dr Fate in DC was before Dr Strange in Marvel, but Doc Strange went to greater heights.

At the height of my Marvel addiction, there were NINE SuperHero books --

3 "Team" groups -- FF, X-Men and Avengers;

3 "Tales" comics which split the book between 2 heroes (Hulk and Sub-Mariner in Tales to Astonish, Captain America and IronMan in Tales of Suspense, and Doc Strange and Nick Fury of SHIELD in Strange Tales, and

3 heroes that "had their own mag" -- Spiderman, Daredevil and Thor.

DC at the time had even more mags than Marvel -- it strained my allowance -- but I tried to keep up with them all.

 

[Anto9us]

Mr Fantastic of Fantastic Four and Elasti-Girl of Doom Patrol -- such S T R E T C H I N G powers went way back to PLASTIC MAN, who was revived by DC

 

[Anto9us]

I never realized Ben Grimm was the object of Anti-Semitism. Stinkin' NAZI's !! And Ben's girlfriend Alicia was as BLIND as Daredevil -- so many problems -- so little time!

 

[Anto9us]

Reed: "Ben !! Wait !! You DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING!! If you misalign that molecular frammistat while tearing off Dr Doom's head -- the Universe as we know it may CEASE TO EXIST !!"

Ben: "Dad-gummit, Reed, IT'S CLOBBERIN' TIME !!"