STAGES OF DISCIPLESHIP

[tturt]

Thank you for your response, Arsenios. That is how I understand justification as well. Didn't mean to sneak it in just didn't want to present this idea without us having common ground.

Think 2 Peter 1:4-8 and Romans 8:29-30 are interwoven. Justification would include faith, virtue, knowledge, self-control, perseverance, godliness, brotherly kindness, and love.

Adjoining puzzle piece?

 

[Arsenios]

Wondering what your definition of sanctification is? Thanks.

Back from Services, only to find yet ANOTHER rotten-child definitional theological question...

No good deed ever goes unpunished, I say!

Sanctificaiton is the making of Godliness in a person...
God alone can give Sanctification...
When we eat His Body and drink His Blood, His Sanctity is imparted unto us, according to our stage of purification of the heart, and according to His Purposing... It is not merely SAID of us because we claim to believe in the One Who Sanctity IS - eg Jesus Christ - but is because of the presence of God IN us - And only God HAS this to give TO us... If we turn back and re-claim our prior ways of sinning, this imparted Sanctity will depart from us, even though the Holy Spirit has been Sealed in us at Baptism...

This is why Paul writes in Hebrews:
Heb 6:4-6
For it is impossible
for those who were once enlightened,
and have tasted of the Heavenly Gift,
and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
And have tasted the Good Word of God,
and the Powers of the Age to Come,
IF they should fall away,
to renew them again unto repentance;
seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh,
and put him to an open shame.

This repentance is that repentance which leads to Baptism, wherein all one's sins are forgiven and in the purity of that washing, one is reborn and given the Seal of the Holy Spirit... The sins one commits AFTER Baptism must be confessed and repented - They are not subject to re-Baptismal washing away... For we are Baptized INTO Christ, and INTO His Crucifixion on the Cross, INTO His Death, and live in the hope and epectation of His Holy Resurrection, as we:

"Run with patience the race that is set before us,"

Not to lose, but to win... By God's Holy Grace...
Whose Strength is perefected in our weakness...

We emerge from the Baptismal Waters of Regeneration fully Justified, and in the purity of that Justification we are Sanctified by the Holy Unction that imparts the Seal of the Holy Spirit within our souls... This, you see, is what the Old Testament Holy Ones did not have... They were much more Sanctified than most of us will ever be, but that saturation of the Holy Spirit was not Sealed in them by God as a part of their hypostasis/person... THIS is what came with Christ's Incarnation, this UNION with Himself, within His Holy Body, the Church, this New Creation IN Christ, of those of us who have been joined together with Him in Holy Baptism, and who then as a part of that Baptism, have been Chrismated [eg 'Christed'] with the Holy Spirit...

And the better prepared by repenting the pereson being Baptized is when he or she is Baptized, then the more Sanctified will that person be when emergent from those Sanctified Waters...

This is how the Early Church approaches these matters...

Not from the point of view of legal requirement...
But from that of the ontology of restoration to God...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Thank you for your response, Arsenios. That is how I understand justification as well.

I was an atheist my first 36 years following a very carnal path of repentance from inner conflicts... I failed in that effort of self-healing, and encountered God who initiated the healing - A classic case of the man left on the road by robbers to die after having been stripped of all that is of value, and having his wounds treated by the Good Samaritan [Christ]... And then placed in the Inn [the Church - some 14 years later, mind you!]

So I have fairly extensive experience in worldly repentance which prepares one for an encounter with God, because the healing does not come from the world, which breaks the person seeking it, but from God Himself... Isaiah wrote from God: "I will be found by those not seeking Me..." I am one of these, you see...

Didn't mean to sneak it in just didn't want to present this idea without us having common ground.

We will see how well we can hang on together...

Think 2 Peter 1:4-8 and Romans 8:29-30 are interwoven. Justification would include faith, virtue, knowledge, self-control, perseverance, godliness, brotherly kindness, and love.

Adjoining puzzle piece?

It is well and good to say that there is an interweaving... But in practical terms, it is important to establish what one has and is, in order to attain to that which one does not have, and is not yet... because the Path of Salvation is just that, a path, and one's feet take but one step at a time, and then the next, and then the next... The first steps are needed in order to be able to take ones that follow them... Each stage needs to be established before the next can be gained...

So what do you understand by the term 'Divine Nature' in your Petrine quote? (eg 2Peter 1:4 b)

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Here is another one of those (naughtzo-) simple little practical questions...

Scripture instructs us to "be praying without ceasing"... [Paul]
What does that mean?
How is it attained?

OR...
BETTER...

How is this virtue discipled BY someone TO someone else??

Arsenios

(And if any one of you mother's little snots replies: "Tell him to pray without ceasing" then... then..... Why Eye Oughtter whap ya one!)

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

...

No good deed ever goes unpunished, I say!

...

I know lol

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Here is another one of those (naughtzo-) simple little practical questions...

Scripture instructs us to "be praying without ceasing"... [Paul]
What does that mean?
How is it attained?

OR...
BETTER...

How is this virtue discipled BY someone TO someone else??

Arsenios

(And if any one of you mother's little snots replies: "Tell him to pray without ceasing" then... then..... Why Eye Oughtta whap ya one!)

Prayer without ceasing , imho, is to be vigilantly aware of His Presence at all times in a position of not allowing the Holy Spirit to be grieved. Iow praying without ceasing is forever being in a position of submission of the known word of God in your life. To be nonvigilant would encompass falling back from that which has been revealed as truth to follow a different path.

 

[Arsenios]

Prayer without ceasing , imho, is to be vigilantly aware of His Presence at all times in a position of not allowing the Holy Spirit to be grieved. Iow praying without ceasing is forever being in a position of submission of the known word of God in your life. To be nonvigilant would encompass falling back from that which has been revealed as truth to follow a different path.

I totally agree with that and more...

So the question was...

"How do you deciple that activity to someone who does not have it?"

eg "How do you disciple to another this particular unceasing awareness?"

Arsenios

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I totally agree with that and more...

So the question was...

"How do you deciple that activity to someone who does not have it?"

eg "How do you disciple to another this particular unceasing awareness?"

Arsenios

Reckon it to be true.

 

[Arsenios]

Reckon it to be true.

So let's say that I do reckon the desirability of prayer without ceasing to be vigilant awareness of the omnipresence of God... And I say to you: Cassia, I totally get that this is crucial for me to have for my Spiritual well-being and even for the Salvation of my soul... But here is my problem: The house smells of unwashed diapers and the cat-box, I've got 5 kids with no job, my husband works at a minimum-wage job, the kids are getting into one problem after another, I don't get enough sleep, and my husband is mad at me when he comes home and dinner isn't ready for him. iow, Cassia, I am overwhelmed by all these distractions requiring my immediate focus and attention, and prayer without ceasing is simply not an item I can find room for on my plate..."

So granting that the above is somewhat extreme, the simple fact is that most people, voluntarily, unlike our less voluntary example above, or involuntarily, are distracted by worldly concerns - Many by carreer considerations, and by the normal day to day attentive needs that the world provides for each of us. How does one DISCIPLE the Faith Christ GAVE to His Disciples to a person with countless worldly distractions? Or even this one feature of that Faith, to be praying without ceasing?

Thank-you for taking a stab at it, btw... The quality of the silence around here apart from you is simply deafening, I must say... Prayer without ceasing, btw, is decidedly a mental distraction issue... It entails the reducing of first exterior noise (talking), and then interior noise (thinking), in a Christian manner - eg by by prayer...

Arsenios

 

[“Paisios”]

Thank-you for taking a stab at it, btw... The quality of the silence around here apart from you is simply deafening, I must say... Prayer without ceasing, btw, is decidedly a mental distraction issue... It entails the reducing of first exterior noise (talking), and then interior noise (thinking), in a Christian manner - eg by by prayer...

Arsenios

Don't mistake silence for lack of interest. I am following this thread with keen attention...just sometimes better "to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt", as goes the quote attributed to Abraham Lincoln.

 

[“Paisios”]

I am overwhelmed by all these distractions requiring my immediate focus and attention, and prayer without ceasing is simply not an item I can find room for on my plate..."

But, (if you want a fool's view) in my experience, that is when it is even more important to recognize the constant prayer in the depths and background of our being, that says "Lord help me, I can't do this alone", where I can recognize "Christ within me, Christ behind me, Christ before me, Christ beside me"...that those distractions and concerns are all the waves on the surface, but there is a deep water beneath that is free from all of that.

 

[Arsenios]

Don't mistake silence for lack of interest. I am following this thread with keen attention...just sometimes better "to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt", as goes the quote attributed to Abraham Lincoln.

I think that there is great interest and very little knowledge...
I came to Christ outside of Church, and I cannot tell ANYONE to EVER do what I did...
But within the Church there exists a great body of writings on the means of discipleship...
2000 years worth...
When I first encountered these writings on my approach to the Church, I recognized in them people who knew God as I had come through the world to know...

As I understand the human quest for God, it is a REALITY quest...

Arsenios

 

[“Paisios”]

I think that there is great interest and very little knowledge...
I came to Christ outside of Church, and I cannot tell ANYONE to EVER do what I did...
But within the Church there exists a great body of writings on the means of discipleship...
2000 years worth...
When I first encountered these writings on my approach to the Church, I recognized in them people who knew God as I had come through the world to know...

As I understand the human quest for God, it is a REALITY quest...

Arsenios

In my case, at least, "great interest and very little knowledge", is an apt description. True, there is a vast body of writings, of which I have barely scratched the surface (though I keep reading).

Yes, a reality quest makes sense...there is nothing more real than God, even though I cannot fully appreciate that reality as of yet.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

But here is my problem: The house smells of unwashed diapers and the cat-box, I've got 5 kids with no job, my husband works at a minimum-wage job, the kids are getting into one problem after another, I don't get enough sleep, and my husband is mad at me when he comes home and dinner isn't ready for him. iow, Cassia, I am overwhelmed by all these distractions requiring my immediate focus and attention, and prayer without ceasing is simply not an item I can find room for on my plate..."

So granting that the above is somewhat extreme, the simple fact is that most people, voluntarily, unlike our less voluntary example above, or involuntarily, are distracted by worldly concerns - Many by carreer considerations, and by the normal day to day attentive needs that the world provides for each of us. How does one DISCIPLE the Faith Christ GAVE to His Disciples to a person with countless worldly distractions? Or even this one feature of that Faith, to be praying without ceasing?

Thank-you for taking a stab at it, btw... The quality of the silence around here apart from you is simply deafening, I must say... Prayer without ceasing, btw, is decidedly a mental distraction issue... It entails the reducing of first exterior noise (talking), and then interior noise (thinking), in a Christian manner - eg by by prayer...

Arsenios

Now that we have assumed you are an overworked woman in need of a better husband we can only assume that the need for a right husband is in demand. Romans 7:2 In order to do that one must consider (reckon) the old husband (former nature) to be dead in order to become the bride of the new bridegroom. If that reckoning fails then He is also the advocate that will be there when you need Him, unlike the demanding old husband.

That is actually an apt description of Christ and the church.

Martha Martha Martha ...

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I think that there is great interest and very little knowledge...
I came to Christ outside of Church, and I cannot tell ANYONE to EVER do what I did...
But within the Church there exists a great body of writings on the means of discipleship...
2000 years worth...
When I first encountered these writings on my approach to the Church, I recognized in them people who knew God as I had come through the world to know...

As I understand the human quest for God, it is a REALITY quest...

Arsenios

~ The Simple life ~ Charles Wagner circa 1890's

The Simple Life : Charles Wagner : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

Your religion is good if it is vital and active
If it nourishes you with confidence, hope, love and a sentiment of infinite values of existence
Allied with what is good as against what is worst
And holds forever before you the necessity of becoming a new man
If it makes you understand that pain is a deliverer
And increase your respect for the conscience of others
And renders forgiveness more easy
Duty dear, fortune less arrogance and beyond less visionary
If it does these things, then it is good. Little matter it name
However rudimentary it maybe if it fills this office, then it comes from true source it binds you to man and to God

It Doesn't :
Look down, quibble over text, wear sour looks, domineer other's consciences, give those of your own over to bondage, stifle your scruples, follow low religious forms for fashion or gain, do good for future reward, followers of anything but love for God and fellow humans.

 

[Arsenios]

Thank you for your response, Arsenios. That is how I understand justification as well.
Think 2 Peter 1:4-8 and Romans 8:29-30 are interwoven. Justification would include faith, virtue, knowledge, self-control, perseverance, godliness, brotherly kindness, and love.
Adjoining puzzle piece?

So do you not think that they are sequentially etiological according to their listed order in Scripture?

Arsenios

 

[tturt]

Please don’t mistake silence as not interested. Just mulling this topic over …

Posted: The house smells of unwashed diapers and the cat-box, I've got 5 kids with no job, my husband … …simply not an item I can find room for on my plate..."

Everybody’s got a list of “stuff” – life. Got some very distressing news a couple of days ago so I can’t afford to not find room on my plate to keep my focus on Him.

Pray without ceasing applied:
The house smells of unwashed diapers and the cat-box, We can thank Yahweh for "this" house, that cat, these 5 inheritances from Him and precious husband because all good things come from Him (Jam 1:17). Asks Yahweh for the wisdom, understanding, knowledge, and strength to primarily love and take care of those He has entrusted to me, etc. I Tim 2:1.

Will be back to this thread including to respond to questions.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I think that there is great interest and very little knowledge...
I came to Christ outside of Church, and I cannot tell ANYONE to EVER do what I did...
But within the Church there exists a great body of writings on the means of discipleship...
2000 years worth...
When I first encountered these writings on my approach to the Church, I recognized in them people who knew God as I had come through the world to know...

As I understand the human quest for God, it is a REALITY quest...

Arsenios

For reasons to clarify what you're saying, why is it that you condemn the means Christ used to led you to Him?

 

[tturt]

To answer the question in #36, after faith, can the definition of virtue be choosing good behavior or a disposition for good behavior? Or how do you define virtue?

 

[Arsenios]

For reasons to clarify what you're saying, why is it that you condemn the means Christ used to led you to Him?

Because I am the only person I know who had my issues, did what I did, and survived to overcome them...
All the others ended up dead, in prison, or in state psychiatric institutions... I ended up dead enough, because I turned from life at the end of that quest in failure, where all that I cared about was destroyed... I was not bitter or angry or anything - I had tried all that there was to try to self-heal, and had failed... I simply knew that I would not be alive in 6 months i It was a simple fact, like 2+2=4... My only consolation was that I had tried... At that stage there are still a few temptations to face - The temptations of being not yet dead, being an atheist, having no value for my own life at all - One is free to do bad things with no consequences... So I had those to face, with virtually the habit of the goodness of the quest for healing as my strength, and after a few weeks, God came...

I mean, when people say "God knows the heart", I KNOW what that means, because by every objective standard [eg external], no sane Calvinist could have said anything other than that I was one of the damned - And no other person could have found any reason to disagree Not even me... I was an horrific mess, and in that condition, I had no idea how close to God I was... God does NOT disciple the means He used with me to lead me to him... We are not normally given the Call of God as atheists... We are to turn from evil and embrace the good, and I was a God-deny-er who despised Christians as cheap judgemental hypocrites... I cannot commend my approach to others... All I had was the willingness to sacrifice ALL for the sake of the truth so as to heal my own soul... And I did so... THAT is the only part I can commend... The rest is far too scandalous to be done...

I have a Coptic friend who knew a guy like me in Cairo - Thought he was a one-er, arrived in the US and ran right into me, and could not believe what he was seeing - So I guess there are others from time to time... And that one told my friend: "NEVER do what I did, but I KNOW God..." He died in a Cairo hospital chastizing the guy in the bed net to him for complaining about being in the hospital... No whiner, that one!

The healing comes from God, but God wants your efforts unto blood - Unto the cost of your own life... Name it and Claim it are not part of the deal... And mental health is KNOWING God - It is not lack of inner conflicts, plus worldly and social competence, as so many modern psychologists would have it...

Arsenios