Staff and Member discussion thread.

Tishri1 · Mar 18, 2012

talmidim said:
Thanks Tish, I hope you know I wasn't trying to make you mad. But again, and I hope I am not trying your patience, I have concerns and I am a little confused about your answer. Not about finding a way to bring shalom to this faith group. That is my fondest wish. But about what I bolded above.

The Roman Catholics have their forum. That boundary is based on doctrine. So too the Pentecostals, the Baptists, etc. I understand that they are denominational forums. But then there are the Faith Groups such as Apostolic Churches , Bridge Builders - Moderate Christians, Charismatic Catholic Renewal, Conservative Christians, Fundamentalist Christians, The Lord's Table - Liberal Catholics, No Creed But Christ - Restoration Movement, Progressive/Moderate Adventists, Semper Reformanda - Reformed, Spirit-Filled / Charismatic, Traditional Adventists, etc. Most of these break along doctrinal boundaries too. So why would the Torah observant Messianics die if separated by forum boundary from those that believe otherwise? I don't get it. Seems to me that a whole lot of anguish would vaporize instantly. Poof! Instant Shalom!

We had the same thing happen a few years ago in the Seventh Day Adventist Church here in CF. we split them up over one thing they had differences over and it destroyed their whole group. Let me bring in the Supervisor who remembers it and maybe he can share how tragic that was .

What would be better is to accept a few ground rules in here and see if we can all get along even with different levels of Torah observance.

How bout we start making threads for Torah discussions in the everything Torah subforum, and discuss topics that involve the Church's overlap with MJ in the bridgebuilder sub forum?

And how bout we trust that those sporting an MJ icon are really being honest with us, that they either attend an MJ synagogue or worship and live out MJ at home with their family(or both )

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aniello · Mar 18, 2012

Jerushabelle said:
I'm sorry you experienced that but you know, I experienced the same thing in reverse in two very high profile Messianic synagogues. I can't speak to the poor behavior of fellow Christians. Only God can. I can show you that I care for you as a Brother in the Body. I'm responsible for my actions under God and those who mistreated you will be held responsible for their actions. Would it interest you to know that I was thrown out of the very Methodist church I attended for ten years because of my Messianic beliefs? Big deal, there will be repercussions so what do I have to worry about? God is in control.

And I regret that you have had negative experiences with both church and MJ. I get a double kick in the teeth in that, by G-d's Sovereign grace, I am a Jew-Sioux. There is nothing worse, trust me. On Friday nights, after helping forming a minyan and having Erev Shabat services, I still have time to go out, get in my Buick, and attack the nearest wagon train, whereupon I scalp all the whites, take blood from the christian children(I prefer tuetonic looking blue eyed blondes) and store the blood in the refrigerator for making matzot for Pesach. It's lousey work but somebody has to do it. My wife knows tanning and taxidermy and we have great deals on scalp patches that continue to grow hair when placed on a coup stick and we also have some very special purses, some for coins and we have two pairs of matched(by pair) purses big enough to hold bowling balls. This stuff markets slow these days. sigh. Take yer money down to Goldman's Mercantile downtown and they'll give ya a great discount. Business is business. Oh maybe I embellished the story a bit.

Perhaps I will be able to respond further, later. Although I can see distance clearly I cannot see up close well right now. Has to do with high blood sugar and attendant high blood pressure. I'm working to get both down.

"God is in control" indeed. But, we are still acountable to Him.

For now, paz y salud

Tishri1 · Mar 18, 2012

Jerushabelle said:
Please cease speaking (posting) to me as though I'm not Messianic. I am quite aware of the nuances of MJ as well as the teachings. I do not cast doubt on anyone's faith expression and I would appreciate the same in return. Respect is a two way street. I think you should perhaps view that video that was posted to this thread. It's excellent in that it points out the primary differences within "mainstream" MJ as they pertain to Torah observance. I'm not "coming in" with anything out of the ordinary anymore than Sister Qnts2 came in with her understanding of MJ. Debate is an attribute of every forum here at CF. I'm quite capable of debating with an attitude of respect for the SoP and love for my Brothers and Sisters as I have proven. Safe haven is within the SoP, not in addition to the SoP. The SoP allows for the many variations within Messianism as do I. You created a subforum for the ones "leaning more toward obedience" (talk about offensive word usage) but the fact is the more Torah observant have no desire to use it which I suppose is their decision but it shouldn't come as a shock that those who have differing opinions will post those opinions as those opinions are no less valid than theirs.

The very reason I'm here is to protect your identity... if you cannot see that then fine, but I am also going to say one more time only, that this is not a debate forum and no one is entitled to derail thread on subjects they disagree with. That has been going on long enough.

No one is judging you whether you are good enough at following Torah, if that were the case I am the worst offender!

But no one has seen me challenge others or derail their threads in debating Torah observance and MJs especially should not be doing that in this place.

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Tishri1 · Mar 18, 2012

talmidim said:
I know. There are a lot of things that go on behind the scenes that we don't know about. I'm sure that they all include a great deal of time and effort and I am grateful. Thank you for your words of encouragement and blessings. We are all still looking for answers and a little peace. I suppose that we aren't that far apart.

I can identify with your situation in my own small way. We fellowship in our apartment. Attendance varies from dozens to just us. Lately we have been alone. My ministry was in elder care for several years. It has migrated over time to the streets. We feed and clothe the homeless as we can afford. However, most of our spare time these days is spent taking care of our own. My wife's little sister is in need of a liver transplant. That is where most of our time and money goes. My elder brother went in for his 8th stint. The blockages almost got him this time. But it is the depression and bouts of extreme forgetfulness that has us the most concerned. He is fiercely independent and willful, but losing the faculties he needs to maintain an independent lifestyle. We can only do what we are called to do and the rest resides with our Elohim. So be it.

I made the mistake of praying for patience once. Life has never been the same.

Thanks again,
Phillip

We will pray for your family Tal, we have two staff prayer sessions a week, it will bless us tremendously to be able to lift them up.

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anisavta · Mar 18, 2012

Templar right now you are prime example of what we MJs are trying to fix. You're anger towards anyone disagreeing with you is not the solution to our problem but instead fuel for the fire. We do not see you fellowshipping or edifying in our forum and yet you want to come in and tear down anything we are trying to build. And according to our SOP you are in violation. Messianic Judaism observes Torah and feel it is not done away with. And now you want to change that? Why? You don't even post in here. Why now?

Lulav · Mar 18, 2012

anisavta said:
Templar right now you are prime example of what we MJs are trying to fix. You're anger towards anyone disagreeing with you is not the solution to our problem but instead fuel for the fire. We do not see you fellowshipping or edifying in our forum and yet you want to come in and tear down anything we are trying to build. And according to our SOP you are in violation. Messianic Judaism observes Torah and feel it is not done away with. And now you want to change that? Why? You don't even post in here. Why now?

I totally agree, only one member of staff (besides the OP) in here that carries the torah scroll and is emulating the same attitude we have been struggling against.

I think if we are going to be drawn into a discussion on how to help things this type of posting should not be allowed and since we don't know this new Messianic it seems odd that he is allowed to post as one yet not answer to when this happened and I know it was recently.

Gxg (G²) · Mar 18, 2012

mpossoff said:
To me in reality Messianic Judaism is Judaism and/or Christianity but biblical Judaism or biblical Christianity.

Right there with ya, Bruh..as are many other Messianics in the present and from the past as well.

Tishri1 · Mar 18, 2012

You need to cease the mantra that Messianics are not Christians. It's persecutive, it's untrue and it's more divisive than any forum debate could ever prove to be. The freedom I proclaim is the same freedom that you have because Messiach is the same for all Christians.

I agree with her in this, there have been many misunderstandings about MJ with the rest of the board when Christianity is debunked and dissed in here. After all when folks think of Christianity they think Jesus and rightly so.....When they see it dissed, or devalued, it's a logical conclusion to think we care less about Yeshua, or nothing at all for Him......and when the emotions enter in with phrases such as ....."we can't follow their God Jesus as he is not our Messiah"(I'm paraphrasing and it wasn't necessarily any one here who said it, it was just something that was reported and boy did I have to do a lot of "splainen" for that one...).you can only imagine what that conjures up in the minds of staff, and cf members alike. The fact is we are apart of the body of Christ/Messiah and albeit different, we hold many truths the same, and need to appreciate the things we have in common more.

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Tishri1 · Mar 18, 2012

Easy G (G²) said:
Definately a video work having for a sticky and heads up in line with the SOP

Good idea!

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Tishri1 · Mar 18, 2012

mpossoff said:
Again the issue is there is no standard. And everyone here reflects the Messianic Judaism they are either part of or want Messianic Judaism to be.

If MJAA is the standard then in regards to being Torah positive then I would try to find another standard from another Messianic organization if you want to exemplify Torah positiveness and focus.

We chose both main camps MJAA and UMJC as these are both the largest organizations, none will totally represent all of MJ

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Tishri1 · Mar 18, 2012

The Templar said:
Also it should be pointed out the sub forum for those who feel they are "more Torah Observant", it's called "Everything Torah". Posting messages of manditory Torah observance in that forum would eliminate much of the friction between camps in the first place.

That would help a lot yes

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Jerushabelle · Mar 18, 2012

anisavta said:
Templar right now you are prime example of what we MJs are trying to fix. You're anger towards anyone disagreeing with you is not the solution to our problem but instead fuel for the fire. We do not see you fellowshipping or edifying in our forum and yet you want to come in and tear down anything we are trying to build. And according to our SOP you are in violation. Messianic Judaism observes Torah and feel it is not done away with. And now you want to change that? Why? You don't even post in here. Why now?

Why do you keep doing this? I don't see this Mod as trying to change Torah observance but rather trying to uphold the decisions made previously by members of this forum and the forum Advisor. I don't see you telling Brother EasyG that he's trying to change Torah observance or the MJ SoP and he agrees with this Mod and so does Sister Tishri. The posturing and constant rhetoric that goes on here! The Mod's an MJ for goodness sake! Where did you see him post that he wants to tear down stuff or that he feels that Torah is done away with? This is the same stuff you threw my way and it's hooey! What's worse is you're upset because he hasn't been in here posting in fellowship? So what? Maybe he saw the lay of the land and didn't like it! And why do some here feel that it's perfectly okay to outright insult someone or couch insults in a little innuendo but it's not okay for the person on the receiving end of this tasteless dish to dish it right back? Listen, I had a Catholic Mod hit me up with a cpm once. Big deal, she was doing her job. Why should MJs expect preferential treatment? You wanna fix what's wrong? Stop acting like this.

Tishri1 · Mar 18, 2012

anisavta said:
Not really. All that would do is relegate those who observe Torah more diligently to a ghetto of sorts. And as far as I know no one in our forum demands "mandatory Torah observance". Friction is not necessarily wrong. Iron sharpens iron. Our issue as I see it is the disrespect we've experienced as Messianic Jews and Gentiles for not stepping in line with general Christian doctrine sometimes sadly disguised by those using the Torah scroll icon as their shield.

No one should feel their threads are going to be tucked away in a ghetto, but the idea has merit if approached in a way that celebrates Torah with a section all it's own, not a ghetto to avoid..my thinking is that the main forum could be used for fellowship for a trial period of three months just to see if relations improve, and everything Torah could in some ways become highly popular during this time used to teach and inform folks of this very important subject to MJ

Not mandatory though, we all need to get on board with this and try it out

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Tishri1 · Mar 18, 2012

The Templar said:
The teaching of Torah topics is not the same as manditory Torah observance.

Hmmmmmm I haven't seen anyone suggesting a mandatory Torah Observance in MJ.

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Jerushabelle · Mar 18, 2012

aniello said:
And I regret that you have had negative experiences with both church and MJ. I get a double kick in the teeth in that, by G-d's Sovereign grace, I am a Jew-Sioux. There is nothing worse, trust me. On Friday nights, after helping forming a minyan and having Erev Shabat services, I still have time to go out, get in my Buick, and attack the nearest wagon train, whereupon I scalp all the whites, take blood from the christian children(I prefer tuetonic looking blue eyed blondes) and store the blood in the refrigerator for making matzot for Pesach. It's lousey work but somebody has to do it. My wife knows tanning and taxidermy and we have great deals on scalp patches that continue to grow hair when placed on a coup stick and we also have some very special purses, some for coins and we have two pairs of matched(by pair) purses big enough to hold bowling balls. This stuff markets slow these days. sigh. Take yer money down to Goldman's Mercantile downtown and they'll give ya a great discount. Business is business. Oh maybe I embellished the story a bit.

Perhaps I will be able to respond further, later. Although I can see distance clearly I cannot see up close well right now. Has to do with high blood sugar and attendant high blood pressure. I'm working to get both down.

"God is in control" indeed. But, we are still acountable to Him.

For now, paz y salud

Yeah, I have to admit the double whammy sounds pretty nasty, Brother.
Perhaps you can commiserate with Templar. I think he's a native son also though the tribe name escapes me right now.

Tishri1 · Mar 18, 2012

Lulav said:
What I don't understand is if what we agree on here that torah observance is a big thing that separates us from the rest of Christianity and is peculiar to our group, then why are we only allowed to speak of Torah in a separate forum for it? Torah is what guides our whole lives, how can we not include it in everyday conversation?

If Torah observers are the majority here (I think Tal mentioned it was like 5 to1) then why is the majority regulated, basically as Ani put, to a ghetto?

It's not going to be, it's a suggestion, that's all

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The Templar · Mar 18, 2012

anisavta said:
Templar right now you are prime example of what we MJs are trying to fix. You're anger towards anyone disagreeing with you is not the solution to our problem but instead fuel for the fire. We do not see you fellowshipping or edifying in our forum and yet you want to come in and tear down anything we are trying to build. And according to our SOP you are in violation. Messianic Judaism observes Torah and feel it is not done away with. And now you want to change that? Why? You don't even post in here. Why now?

What are you trying to fix, unity?
I only ask that respect be both ways, and in doing so you feel I'm angry?
I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion, but you did.
I am not building arguments on disagreement, I have only asked for respect for all who claim Yeshua as Meshiach. How can that be twisted into something needing fixed?
No, I do not post here often, but have in the past. Which means you do not know me well enough to make the claims against me you have.
Sorry you missed my past posts as my comments were amazing!
I have not mentioned "tearing down" anything!
I only ask that we build a forum that holds mutual respect for ALL MJ and CF members, not just those we agree with.
As for my position in the faith, it's not important.
I do not tell of my faith position so I don't seem bias in any direction.

The Templar · Mar 18, 2012

Jerushabelle said:
Yeah, I have to admit the double whammy sounds pretty nasty, Brother.
Perhaps you can commiserate with Templar. I think he's a native son also though the tribe name escapes me right now.

Wyandott. I just can't wait to see how this will be used against me...

Gxg (G²) · Mar 19, 2012

Tishri1 said:
We chose both main camps MJAA and UMJC as these are both the largest organizations, none will totally represent all of MJ

So wild to consider where things are at now in light of what occurred when the forum got to the point it was years ago--as seen in the thread Change coming to the MJ forum when the SOP was chosen by others on both Staff and MJish members of the forum....and as you noted in #14 when stating how the SOF was not meant to be the END-All of Messianic belief:

And on others where the SOP was seen in development:

The Templar · Mar 19, 2012

Tishri1 said:
It's not going to be, it's a suggestion, that's all

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"If Torah observers are the majority here (I think Tal mentioned it was like 5 to1) then why is the majority regulated, basically as Ani put, to a ghetto?"

I would like to see the evidence for the 5 to 1 claim,
the stats I have are somewhat different. Or is this only CF?

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