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St. Vincent, Sola Scriptura and Tradition

Cajun Huguenot

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St. Vincent, Sola Scriptura and Tradition

Keith Mathison’s, in his book The Shape of Sola Scriptura, quotes St. Vincent of Lérins. Vincent joined the monestary in Lérins in 425 and died in 450 AD.

St. Vincent wrote an important epistle titled The Commonitory: For the Antiquity and Universality of the Catholic Faith Against the Profane Novelties of All Heresies. The title is a mouth full, but it is a delightful read.

When I came across by Vincent I set Mathison’s book aside, because I believed the quote from The Commonitory to be so important that I wanted to be sure that Mathison was dealing accurately with what St. Vincent actually wrote. After reading the whole of Vincent’s epistle I was sure that Mathison used him correctly, and he could have quoted him a good bit more.

It becomes clear that Vincent holds to a very different understanding of the relationship between Scripture and tradition than that of the Modern Roman Catholic Church. It is also clear that he believes one should not lightly dismiss the historic teachings of the faith, which I believe is an all too common problem among modern Evangelicals who have little knowledge of or interest in the history of doctrine or the church itself.

Mathison’s quote that caused me to set his book down and read The Commonitory is taken from Chapter II. St. Vincent wrote "That whether I or any one else should wish to detect the frauds and avoid the snares of heretics as they rise, and to continue sound and complete in the Catholic faith, we must, the Lord helping, fortify our own belief in two ways; first, by the authority of the Divine Law, and then, by the Tradition of the Catholic Church."

That sounds like the conventional Roman Catholic position, but Vincent is not finished. He then defines what he means by this statement. He says "But here some one perhaps will ask, Since the canon of Scripture is complete, and sufficient of itself for everything, and more than sufficient, what need is there to join with it the authority of the Church's interpretation?"

It is important to notice two things here. First, St Vincent clearly believes that "the canon of Scripture is complete, and sufficient of itself for everything, and more than sufficient." This is a very high view of the Bible and one that every Evangelical would heartily agree with, but look at what he adds. He asks "what need is there to join with it the authority of the Church's interpretation."

St. Vincent, in this passage, equates tradition with the historic interpretation of the Scriptures. This is not what the modern Roman Catholic (RC) means by tradition. The Modern RC, when he speaks of tradition, is referring to a body of beliefs that exist extra-biblically.

St Vincent’s position on tradition would match perfectly with the classical Protestant position on the matter, and is in stark conflict with the modern RC view and from another angle it is at odds with most (baptistic) Evangelicals as well.

We see Vincent’s position reiterated a number of times in the thirty tree chapters of this work. In referring to the errors of Origen he writes "Hence it came to pass, that this Origen, such and so great as he was, wantonly abusing the grace of God, rashly following the bent of his own genius, and placing overmuch confidence in himself, making light account of the ancient simplicity of the Christian religion, presuming that he knew more than all the world besides, despising the traditions of the Church and the determinations of the ancients, and interpreting certain passages of Scripture in a novel way, deserved for himself the warning given to the Church of God, as applicable in his case as in that of others."

In the body of the epistle it’s clear that St. Vincent believes Origen erred when he abandoned the traditional interpretation of Scripture and followed his own ideas. Origen’s errors, according to St Vincent, were that he thought too much like a modern Evangelical.

In chapter XXVII St. Vincent reinforces what he said in chapter II. He writes "in the beginning of this Commonitory, we said that holy and learned men had commended to us, that is to say, they must interpret the sacred Canon according to the traditions of the Universal Church and in keeping with the rules of Catholic doctrine, in which Catholic and Universal Church, moreover, they must follow universality, antiquity, consent." He even goes so far as to say that "as to the more ancient schisms or heresies, we ought either to confute them, if need be, by the sole authority of the Scriptures, or at any rate, to shun them…"

In chapter XXIX St. Vincent affirms that Scripture alone is, in and of itself sufficient, but then reaffirms the importance of looking at Scripture in the light shed on it by the historic teachings of the Church. Here are his own words "it has always been the custom of Catholics, and still is, to prove the true faith in these two ways; first by the authority of the Divine Canon, and next by the tradition of the Catholic Church. Not that the Canon alone does not of itself suffice for every question, but seeing that the more part, interpreting the divine words according to their own persuasion, take up various erroneous opinions, it is therefore necessary that the interpretation of divine Scripture should be ruled according to the one standard of the Church's belief,"

Notice that St. Vincent admits that the canon (i.e. the Holy Bible) will, on its own "suffice for every question." That is not the modern RC position, but it is something that Evangelicals would readily agree with. We flip flop this situation when we look at what he next says. He writes "it is therefore necessary that the interpretation of divine Scripture should be ruled according to the one standard of the Church's belief." This is where the modern RC and the Evangelical will switch places. The Evangelical will disagree and the RC will agree. But the classical Protestant would agree with both statements.

The Commonitory of St. Vincent is a wonderful work and sheds light on a number of important items that are not addressed here.

Coram Deo,
Kenith
 

Irishcat922

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I Thoroughly enjoyed Mathieson's work I have encouraged several people to read it. I feel it is very important to our time. When I express to people that I hold to the Westminster Confession they ussually scratch thier head and lokk at me with disdain for holding to some archaic document produced by men. When I try to explain they simply don't get the importance of the traditions of the church being maintained. It is what I refer to as "subjective relativistic experiential christianity" or hyper mysticism without solid scriptural basis.
 
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HiredGoon

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Some of the best writings to support sola scriptura come from the Early Church Fathers. What a lot of people don't realize is that the classical reformers were very well read in the writings of the early church fathers, and were very careful to make sure they were not inventing a novel theology.
 
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II Paradox II

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HiredGoon said:
Some of the best writings to support sola scriptura come from the Early Church Fathers. What a lot of people don't realize is that the classical reformers were very well read in the writings of the early church fathers, and were very careful to make sure they were not inventing a novel theology.
BTW - you may also want to get a copy of "John Calvin: Student of the church fathers" by Anthony Lane. It's a very balanced (and thorough) study of Calvin's use of the church fathers and medieval theologians. If nothing else, it helps quite a bit to temper our tendency to read history anachronistically. It gives you quite a few interesting tidbits as well (Did you know St. Bernard of Clairvaux was Calvin's favorite medieval theologian?)

ken
 
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Iacobus

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Cajun Huguenot said:
St. Vincent, Sola Scriptura and Tradition

He says "But here some one perhaps will ask, Since the canon of Scripture is complete, and sufficient of itself for everything, and more than sufficient, what need is there to join with it the authority of the Church's interpretation?"

It is important to notice two things here. First, St Vincent clearly believes that "the canon of Scripture is complete, and sufficient of itself for everything, and more than sufficient." This is a very high view of the Bible and one that every Evangelical would heartily agree with, but look at what he adds. He asks "what need is there to join with it the authority of the Church's interpretation."


With all respect, St. Vincent was asking a rhetorical question. He clearly believed that scripture must be interpreted in light of the consensus of the Church: that which has been believed by all, in all places and at all times. To argue that St. Vincent was a sola scriptura kind of guy is simply inaccurate.

Returning to lurkerdom,

James
 
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Cajun Huguenot

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Iacobus,

Thanks for your comment. I agree that St. Vincent would not support Sola Scriptura as it is understood today. But my point in the Snippet you quote was:

"St Vincent’s position on tradition would match perfectly with the classical Protestant position on the matter, and is in stark conflict with the modern RC view and from another angle it is at odds with most (baptistic) Evangelicals as well."

I then say:
Notice that St. Vincent admits that the canon (i.e. the Holy Bible) will, on its own "suffice for every question." That is not the modern RC position, but it is something that Evangelicals would readily agree with. We flip flop this situation when we look at what he next says. He writes "it is therefore necessary that the interpretation of divine Scripture should be ruled according to the one standard of the Church's belief." This is where the modern RC and the Evangelical will switch places. The Evangelical will disagree and the RC will agree. But the classical Protestant would agree with both statements.

Modern Evangelical have little to no use for the fathers. This is wrong.
Roman Catholics have "holy" traditions that have no relationship with the Scriptures and I think on a some points counter to the Scriptures.

Dominus Vobiscum,
Kenith
 
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Filia Mariae

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Cajun Huguenot said:
The Modern RC, when he speaks of tradition, is referring to a body of beliefs that exist extra-biblically.
Nope, that's not what Catholics mean by Sacred Tradition. If you'd like to know what we do mean, you're welcome to ask anytime.:wave:
 
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II Paradox II

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The Modern RC, when he speaks of tradition, is referring to a body of beliefs that exist extra-biblically.
Carly said:
Nope, that's not what Catholics mean by Sacred Tradition. If you'd like to know what we do mean, you're welcome to ask anytime.:wave:
I would agree, that definition is probably too narrow. A better way of describing the Roman approach is that sacred tradition is the oral transmission of the apostolic doctrine in the succession of Bishops (articles 77 & 78 in the Catechism). At this point, I would argue that there is some divergence of views as to whether this apostolic faith is entirely within scripture and sacred tradition each in it's scope, or whether the two in part contain the whole of the apostolic faith when combined together though one or neither contain it in whole without the other.

However, whichever way you go, the basic definition of sacred tradition stays the same.

ken
 
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HiredGoon

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Iacobus said:
He clearly believed that scripture must be interpreted in light of the consensus of the Church: that which has been believed by all, in all places and at all times.

Exactly, that's one of the main tenets of sola scriptura! Its a very important part of sola scriptura. :thumbsup:
 
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Cajun Huguenot

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Certainly. I would like to know your thoughts. If you think you might offend others, feel free to email me.:thumbsup:

Coram Deo,
Kenith

Carly said:
Are you asking me to define it? I am seriously asking, I don't want to step on toes here.:)
 
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Filia Mariae

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Cajun Huguenot said:
Certainly. I would like to know your thoughts. If you think you might offend others, feel free to email me.:thumbsup:

Coram Deo,
Kenith
Kenith,

The very short answer is that Sacred Tradition is all of public revelation. Scripture is a part of that Tradition, it is not a separate entity. Scripture and Tradition are not two different things. Several weeks ago, I answered a similar question from Pastor George here:
http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=8734357#post8734357

:wave:
 
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Cajun Huguenot

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Carly said:
Are you asking me to define it? I am seriously asking, I don't want to step on toes here.:)
I'm serious. If you think you might offend others, write me and email.I would like your thoughts on the matter.

In Christ,
Kenith
 
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II Paradox II

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Carly said:
The very short answer is that Sacred Tradition is all of public revelation. Scripture is a part of that Tradition, it is not a separate entity. Scripture and Tradition are not two different things. Several weeks ago, I answered a similar question from Pastor George here:
http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=8734357#post8734357
Carly -

Are you sure your definition is accurate? It seems to me that it is contradicting article 77 & 78 of the latest catechism which does make a distinction between sacred tradition and scripture:

77 "In order that the full and living Gospel might always be preserved in the Church the apostles left bishops as their successors. They gave them their own position of teaching authority."35 Indeed, "the apostolic preaching, which is expressed in a special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved in a continuous line of succession until the end of time."36

78 This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, "the Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes."37 "The sayings of the holy Fathers are a witness to the life-giving presence of this Tradition, showing how its riches are poured out in the practice and life of the Church, in her belief and her prayer."38

Your view seems more akin to that of the Eastern Orthodox. While I have heard various Catholics articulate the formula you did, I'm not sure it would be official.

ken
 
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Filia Mariae

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Ken,

I'd be happy to discuss it with you, but I don't think this is the place. I'm afraid I will be accused of debating if I discuss it further here. If you really want to discuss, you're welcome in OBOB.:)
II Paradox II said:
Carly -

Are you sure your definition is accurate? It seems to me that it is contradicting article 77 & 78 of the latest catechism which does make a distinction between sacred tradition and scripture:

77 "In order that the full and living Gospel might always be preserved in the Church the apostles left bishops as their successors. They gave them their own position of teaching authority."35 Indeed, "the apostolic preaching, which is expressed in a special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved in a continuous line of succession until the end of time."36

78 This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, "the Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes."37 "The sayings of the holy Fathers are a witness to the life-giving presence of this Tradition, showing how its riches are poured out in the practice and life of the Church, in her belief and her prayer."38

Your view seems more akin to that of the Eastern Orthodox. While I have heard various Catholics articulate the formula you did, I'm not sure it would be official.

ken
 
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II Paradox II

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Carly said:
Ken,

I'd be happy to discuss it with you, but I don't think this is the place. I'm afraid I will be accused of debating if I discuss it further here. If you really want to discuss, you're welcome in OBOB.:)
No problem, it's not a huge issue, just more of technicality anyways.

ken
 
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