St. Peter - The first among equals

[Reader Nilus]

History has also shown us that Rome really is the only one of the early places to actually survive strong in Catholicism to the present day, without being invaded by muslims or battled over. I think that point is quite important, the gates of hell certainly haven't prevailed against Rome, the rock of Peter.
Am I right in saying that Rome is the strongest still today?

the gates of hell certainly haven't prevailed against Rome, the rock of Peter, I imagine that is why Rome succumbed to heretical teachings, because it was so strong. No Rome is not the strongest, if one is to look for strength see the Coptic Church, the Russian Church, and the Churches of the Middle East, those who have suffered and suffered yet their faith hold firm.
Jeff the Finn

 

[Markh]

statistics will probably tell you a completely different story about Coptic Church and the Churches of the Middle East. The number of Christians has fallen a lot there. In fact you actually have the Egyptian governments destroying churches.

The Russian Church has been through rough times too, i'm sure the vatican would not have been mobbed by atheistic communists.

It isn't a debatable issue on whether Rome is the strongest today and has faired the best throughout history. After all, the Vatican city is now a Country. Yet Constantinople that beautiful holy city is now "Istanbul" a place in Islamic Turkey.

ALEXANDRIA
ANTIOCH
JERUSALEM

they aren't looking too good either, you might say they are holier or something, but the fact is- they aren't even in Christian countries anymore, Christianity is like a foriegn faith. You say that Rome and the vatican has succumbed to heretical teachings- that might be true from your perspective- but I think we can all agree that the gates of hell have not prevailed against it physically.

spirtitually is is debatable on whether the gates have prevailed, but physically, Rome, now, the Vatican City, has survived history quite nicely up till today.

 

[Orthodox Andrew]

*Mod hat on*

Markh, you continued to debate even after Oblio warned against it. I hate to do this, but I have to give you an official warning for continuing to debate in TAW.

*Mod hat off*

 

[Rilian]

spirtitually is is debatable on whether the gates have prevailed, but physically, Rome, now, the Vatican City, has survived history quite nicely up till today.

Rome indeed sat outside of the area overcome by the tide of Islam that swept over the Eastern Mediterranean and Latin influenced Northern Africa. The Roman patriarchate also assumed the power of the defunct emperors and allied itself closely with the Carolingian kings. Decisively it broke the back of the Christian East as a result of the fourth crusade, when Latin Christians sacked, burned and looted Constantinople and engaged in wholesale killing of the Christian residents of the city. The Christian East was effectively powerless and soon thereafter fell to the Ottomans.

In the time since then Western Christians have done nothing to help the East, and have often simply exacerbated its problems while largely looking down on the Christian East as backwards and inferior. They stood by during the Bulgarian atrocities, the Armenian genocide, and the ethnic cleansing of Greeks all carried out by the Turks. Western Christians have not come to the aid of the Copts or the Christians native to the Holy Land. When the calamity of 20th century communism finally fell in the East, one of the first things to come from the West were missionaries seeking converts from the churches trying to gather themselves after nearly three quarters of a century of repression.

Rome as you've said has remained untouched. Yet all around it are signs of stress. The civilization of Western Europe, long seen as the mantle of Christendom, is now at the forefront of its unraveling. The framers of the European Constitution seem to have a case of historical amnesia when it comes to their Christian past. Perhaps Rome will survive then as the epicenter of a Christian empire located on distant shores even as the other ancient patriarchies face collapse. I suppose you have to ask, at what price was its victory won?

 

[MariaRegina]

Didn't the Pope of Rome give his blessing for an Islamic Mosque (the largest in the world) to be built in Rome? Didn't the Pope of Rome take off his shoes as a sign of respect when he visited that very mosque?


No comment.

 

[Markh]

Aria- Islam is better than atheism. Muslims are having their faith either diluted or fundamentalised when they move to Western europe- I would rather real muslims over fundamentalists or lapsed Muslims- wouldn't you?

Also, I think there is another way of looking at the Pope for being nice to the Muslims, as if you think about it, if he wasn't nice to them and started destroying mosques, they would just trash all of your Churches in their countries. It works both ways don't you think?

Rilian- you aren't completely correct about Rome being outside the tide of Islam, they were as much in the tide as the rest of Europe and indeed, naval battles were fought over Italy in the same way that battles were fought over France and Spain.

Just to add another historical fact, and all the talk about the Western Church standing by while the Ottomons swept by is nonsense, one typical example of this is "in 1571 when, in a three-hour battle, a Christian fleet "composed of 208 Venetian, Spanish, Genoese and papal galleys" destroyed 90 percent of the Ottoman fleet of 260 ships in Greece's Bay of Lepanto. "

I think the point about the European constitution is a good one- The Vatican is not a member of the EU However, just to say, the constitution hasn't got a chance of passing. The UK is totally against it as are many, many of the other countries.

However, regarding communism, I think we should all pay respect to the pope for helping massively to crush Polish communism, this helped to caused a counter domino effect, eventually freeing Russia too.

(I haven't made any debatable points here, a few questions, then a few things you can read in a history book- maybe you should close the thread, fuel keeps getting thrown on the fire )

 

[Rilian]

Rilian- you aren't completely correct about Rome being outside the tide of Islam, they were as much in the tide as the rest of Europe and indeed, naval battles were fought over Italy in the same way that battles were fought over France and Spain.

I guess I thought you were asserting that because Rome had actually never been directly overrun (at least not since it was by Pagan Goths) that somehow it had a primacy of sorts in the gates of Hell not prevailing line of thinking. Obviously Western Europe faced Islamic expansion as exemplified by the Umayyad rule of what is now Spain or the Battle of Vienna.

Just to add another historical fact, and all the talk about the Western Church standing by while the Ottomons swept by is nonsense, one typical example of this is "in 1571 when, in a three-hour battle, a Christian fleet "composed of 208 Venetian, Spanish, Genoese and papal galleys" destroyed 90 percent of the Ottoman fleet of 260 ships in Greece's Bay of Lepanto. "

True, but why would you guess the Venetians were fighting at Lepanto? The West standing by while the Ottomans have persecuted Christianity is unfortunately not nonsense. Largely the Ottomans tolerated Christian minorities under the millet system up until the 19th century, but the rise of Turkish nationalism has changed that. There has been a holocaust of Christians in the 20th century which has largely gone unnoticed in the West.

Night of Terror 1955
Persecution of the Syrian Orthodox
Statement on the destruction of christian communites in Ottoman Turkey 1915-17
Destruction of Pontos

Turkey, the home of the some of the most ancient deposits of Christian culture and of the Cappadocian Fathers sits at the precipice of being an entirely non-Christian country.

 

[Philip]

I think this thread has stayed far enough from its original intent.