St. Paul Demonstrating Sola Scriptura In Scripture

[Montalban]

Honest exegesis shouldn't.

It's still circular.

I should rely on scripture

(but I'm using me as the authority of interpretation)

I should be honestly relying on scripture

(but I'm using me as the judge of this)

All people do is shift the problem.

 

[Montalban]

You are grossly misrepresenting other Christians, we use Scripture and Tradition. You guys want to go it "alone"

It could be said to be a gross understatement given that Irenaeus only was referring to the Gospels!

Here again for the benefit of those interested in conversation is what Irenaeus said IN CONTEXT

Ireneaus says of scripture that it is "the ground and pillar of our faith"

If he meant THE ONLY then he'd be set against Paul who says in Ephesians that the faith is built on the Apostles with Jesus as the chief corner-stone.

There is no confusion or contradiction in Irenaeus unless one tries to work into his writing a meaning he didn't support.

The real telling point is that at the time he wrote it the Bible had not been set down. How could he be supporting a scripture-only stance when scripture itself had not be canonised?

Unless one is to say he had some kind of prophetic look ahead and knew what would be.

However he was aware of the four gospels, and that's actually what he's referring to...

We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith. For it is unlawful to assert that they preached before they possessed perfect knowledge, as some do even venture to say, boasting themselves as improvers of the apostles. For, after our Lord rose from the dead, [the apostles] were invested with power from on high when the Holy Spirit came down [upon them], were filled from all [His gifts], and had perfect knowledge: they departed to the ends of the earth, preaching the glad tidings of the good things [sent] from God to us, and proclaiming the peace of heaven to men, who indeed do all equally and individually possess the Gospel of God. Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church. After their departure, Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, did also hand down to us in writing what had been preached by Peter. Luke also, the companion of Paul, recorded in a book the Gospel preached by him. Afterwards, John, the disciple of the Lord, who also had leaned upon His breast, did himself publish a Gospel during his residence at Ephesus in Asia.​

Later he also says (3.11.8):

It is not possible that the Gospels can be either more or fewer in number than they are. For, since there are four zones of the world in which we live, and four principal winds, while the Church is scattered throughout all the world, and the "pillar and ground" of the Church is the Gospel and the spirit of life; it is fitting that she should have four pillars, breathing out immortality on every side, and vivifying men afresh. From which fact, it is evident that the Word, the Artificer of all, He that sits upon the cherubim, and contains all things, He who was manifested to men, has given us the Gospel under four aspects, but bound together by one Spirit.​

Therefore the Gospels are the pillar of faith - if one were to take this literally as some are trying to do here then he's excluding all the Epistles!

 

[Rick Otto]

I'm more reliable using my best interpretation of scripture than any of the more-than-one orthodoxies of Christianity. I don't excommunicate myself, I don't schism with myself, & I don't give more authority to hearsay than I do to written documents.
And I don't try to shift the responsibility of me understanding anything onto anyone else, as if The Holy Spirit & scripture werem't enough just like they say.
It comes down to who you trust.

I suppose with the inability to see Sola Scriptura in all the scripture provided, it may be just as well or at least not any worse, that some of us have others tell us what to believe.

 

[Rick Otto]

Look up the word "dictionary" in the dictionary.
How do you know what it says is true? Circular reasoning.
Better to have the "circular reasoning" of a self-referencing system than to simply be unreasonable.

 

[Rick Otto]

A gross misrepresentation would be that we "want to go it alone".
Never seen such dedication to vilifying one's own strawman.

 

[Standing Up]

Some groups don't like it when tradition goes against their tradition.

Paul said don't you remember what I told you. Adhere to that. The only thing we know Paul told them is what was written. That's sufficient. The remainder is pure speculation. Besides, Paul never said adhere to tradition that will develop by the bishops.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Some groups don't like it when tradition goes against their tradition.

Paul said don't you remember what I told you. Adhere to that. The only thing we know Paul told them is what was written. That's sufficient. The remainder is pure speculation. Besides, Paul never said adhere to tradition that will develop by the bishops.

Isn't that what Paul inplied in 1 Corin 4:6?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7367166/#post51676697
1 Corin 4:6 No above what is written

Young) 1 Corinthians 4:6 And these things, brethren, I did transfer to myself and to Apollos because of you, that in us ye may learn not to think above that which hath been written, that ye may not be puffed up one for one against the other,

 

[Whisper of Hope]

I'm more reliable using my best interpretation of scripture than any of the more-than-one orthodoxies of Christianity. I don't excommunicate myself, I don't schism with myself, & I don't give more authority to hearsay than I do to written documents. And I don't try to shift the responsibility of me understanding anything onto anyone else, as if The Holy Spirit & scripture weren't enough just like they say. It comes down to who you trust.

I completely and wholeheartedly trust the Holy Spirit to lead me to all truth concerning the things of God. Our Lord Jesus said, "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come" (John 16:13, emphasis added). If someone tells me something contrary to what is written in the Scriptures, than I will reject it outright. I test all things against Scripture (1 Thessalonians 5:21) and I pray for understanding and discernment.

I suppose with the inability to see Sola Scriptura in all the scripture provided, it may be just as well or at least not any worse, that some of us have others tell us what to believe.

(1) If "All Scripture" only refers to the Old Testament, than every single word written in every book of the New Testament should be rejected as Scripture.

(2) If "All Scripture" does not include the New Testament as being inspired by God, than anything and everything written about Jesus Christ (His birth, His ministry, His teaching, and His suffering and death on the cross for the remission of our sins) should all be rejected.

(3) If "All Scripture" does not include the New Testament as being inspired by God, than how do we know we're truly saved or not?

(4) If "All Scripture" does not include the New Testament as being inspired by God, than how do we know if God loves us enough to send His Son to die for us on the cross?

(5) If "All Scripture" does not include the New Testament as being inspired by God, than how do we know if Jesus Christ really died on the cross for our sins?

(6) If "All Scripture" does not include the New Testament as being inspired by God, than what good is Christianity?

(7) If "All Scripture" does not include the New Testament as being inspired by God, than why are we following the commands, instructions, and teaching of Jesus and the apostles?

(8) If "All Scripture" does not include the New Testament as being inspired by God, than why go to church to hear passages of the New Testament read and preached from the pulpit?

(9) If "All Scripture" does not include the New Testament as being inspired by God, than why do we pray in Jesus' name? Jesus said that where two or more are gathered in His name, there He would be also. Is that not true?

(10) If "All Scripture" does not include the New Testament as being inspired by God, than why do we believe that the Old Testament is divinely inspired by God?

And if the Old Testament is the "All Scripture" referred to in 2 Timothy 3:16-17, which is God-breathed and it alone is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, than we're ALL in deep trouble (and that includes Catholics and Orthodox). As far as I'm aware Christians (which we wouldn't be Christians in the first place since the term Christian was first used in Antioch, as recorded in the Book of Acts, which is in the New Testament, that is not divinely inspired), aren't sacrificing animals on altars for the remission of their sins. I know I haven't been. And as far as I'm aware Christians (see above explanation also in parenthesis), haven't been following all the rules and regulations set forth by God (who only inspired the Old Testament) in the Old Covenant. I know I haven't been. Since our righteousness is as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6) to God and the sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to Him (Proverbs 15:8; 21:27) than we're ALL up the creek without a paddle. We have absolutely NO hope of salvation, because none of us are righteous.

So I can only conclude that we're ALL condemned to hell, without any hope of redemption. We're not forgiven for our sins because we don't do the animal sacrifices for the remission of our sins as commanded in the Old Testament (which is the "All Scripture" mentioned in 2 Timothy 3:16-17). We're not reconciled to God because of our sins and because we're unrighteous. The wrath of God is still upon us, because we have not hope of being truly forgiven by God and we won't inherit the Kingdom of God nor will we have eternal life. In fact, since 2 Timothy 3:16-17 is in the New Testament (which is not included in the "All Scripture"), than we can't even trust and believe that God inspired the Old Testament. If we cannot believe and trust what is written in the New Testament as being "God-breathed" and included in the "All Scripture" of 2 Timothy 3:16, than we cannot possibly trust in God Himself.

If we do not believe that the New Testament is included in the "All Scripture" than we cannot believe any of the prophecies about the end times written in the New Testament. We could not believe Peter when he wrote, "knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit" (2 Peter 1:20-21). In fact, we could not even believe what John the Revelator wrote in the book of Revelation. There is nothing written in the New Testament that we can believe, if we do not believe it to be divinely inspired of God.

So, what do we do now? Where or in whom do we place our faith, which without it, we cannot please God. If we aren't to believe that the "All Scripture" includes both the Old AND the New Testament, than how do we know what absolute truth is? If we don't believe that the Holy Scriptures are divinely inspired, than we cannot know if God is telling us the truth, or that if He is even real. If He is real, than we won't be able to have communion or fellowship with Him, or even have a personal relationship with Him, because of our sinfulness. We have no hope. We're just condemned prisoners in the prison of our sins.

If what is written in the New Testament isn't included in the "All Scripture" than we are not in Christ Jesus. We are not forgiven of our sins. We are not cleansed in the blood of Jesus for our sins. We are not reconciled to God nor do we have peace with Him. We are lost and eternally condemned if we aren't to believe that what is written in the New Testament is included in the "All Scripture" of 2 Timothy 3:16. We would not believe what is written about how to be saved. We would not believe what is written about salvation in the New Testament, which is freely given to us by God, because of His love, grace and mercy toward us demonstrated through the cross of Jesus Christ. We would still be under the law, condemned.

However, I do believe that the New Testament is definitely included in the "All Scripture" and that "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." I believe and fully trust that God preserves His Word and that it will not return to Him in void. I wholeheartedly believe that the Word of God is alive and is sharper than any two-edged sword. I wholeheartedly believe the Scriptures are infallible and inerrant, and are the sole authority for the Christian faith and practice. I believe that as long as church tradition or doctrine is in full agreement with the Scriptures, than they can be accepted and practiced. However, if a church tradition or doctrine is contrary to what is written in Scripture, than I believe that the tradition or doctrine should not be accepted or practiced, but condemned as heresy.

 

[OpenDoor]

So scripture was not enough to swing it for some!

Sure.
Even today there are people who are not Christians.

 

[OpenDoor]

That does not demonstrate Scripture alone, they didn't abandon what they knew and just look at a book. At a certain point they had to step out in faith now that they knew the first lined up. Scripture alone has never been used in historic Christianity

Sola Scriptura (SS) does not dismiss faith...

 

[whitetiger1]

Some groups don't like it when tradition goes against their tradition.

Paul said don't you remember what I told you. Adhere to that. The only thing we know Paul told them is what was written. That's sufficient. The remainder is pure speculation. Besides, Paul never said adhere to tradition that will develop by the bishops.

Paul said to adhere to Tradition, not just one book that came out of Tradition.

 

[whitetiger1]

Sola Scriptura (SS) does not dismiss faith...

The Bareans (sp) do not prove Scripture alone

 

[OpenDoor]

It's still circular.

I should rely on scripture

(but I'm using me as the authority of interpretation)

I should be honestly relying on scripture

(but I'm using me as the judge of this)

All people do is shift the problem.

Thats not exegesis.

 

[OpenDoor]

The Bareans (sp) do not prove Scripture alone

I agree.

Edit - It's evidence and demonstrates SS but it's not proof.

 

[whitetiger1]

kewl

 

[OpenDoor]

kewl

I made a small edit

 

[whitetiger1]

I disagree with your edit. It does not demonstrate that at all, it demostartes that they tested things but not just by Scripture alone if that were the case they would have not even become believers because the Jerusalem council went outside of known Scripture

 

[OpenDoor]

I disagree with your edit. It does not demonstrate that at all, it demostartes that they tested things but not just by Scripture alone if that were the case they would have not even become believers because the Jerusalem council went outside of known Scripture

In Acts 17:11 what else are we told that they tested things by?

 

[whitetiger1]

In Acts 17:11 what else are we told that they tested things by?

Really it doesn't matter because your trying to prove a man made doctrine of the 1500's, and it doesn't say what they checked because the Jewish people had more than just Scripture they had Tradition too. There is no evidence in historic Christianity for the man made doctrine of Scripture alone no matter what you pull out. Scripture came out of Tradition both the OT (Jewish Tradition) and NT (Christian Tradition) and does not exist in a vacumn

 

[Standing Up]

In Acts 17:11 what else are we told that they tested things by?

Some folks will argue from silence.