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But no new revelation.
I can't imagine where I said that no writer had anything inspired to say after Christ ascended. The inspiration had to remain, since they wrote years later.
Its private in that these revelations, while enormously profound, are privately experienced, as opposed to the direct revelation of God: Jesus Christ's public incarnation where the light entered the world and showed forth the reality and full glory of God-and of His will for man. This doesn't mean that we, as individuals, can't grow by virtue of that light as we choose to enter into it-or that the HS doesn't inspire us personally in various ways. And, yes, the specific gifts mentioned are for the benefit of the whole church and the advancement of God's kingdom in some manner; He doesn't grant them carelessly.you limit it to "private revelation" when in fact that actual Bible says it is public - it is for the entire church - it is not at all "private revelation"
Its private in that these revelations, while enormously profound, are privately experienced, as opposed to the direct revelation of God:
One definition of SS that was given to me by Standing Up is "the Bible is the supreme authority in all matters of doctrine and practice" but the passage in Acts 17 does not say that or anything remotely like that. .
Where does holy scripture say that saint Paul read the old testament to learn about Jesus Christ? I think you made that up.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt; you're being puposefully obtuse. The public revelation I was talking about was direct to the world. But, duh, yes, private revelation is direct as well, to the receiver. They're still very rare, and often lied about or are even possibly demonic in some instances. Joseph Smith, for example, did not receive them, did not speak for God. Neither did the many 19th & 20th century "prophets" who've falsely predicted the end of the world.John states he received "direct revelation from God" in Rev 1 -- was John "Wrong"??
Numbers 12:6 explains how prophecy works. God Himself contacts the prophet
2Peter 1:19-21 explains how it works. The Holy Spirit directly inspires them such that they "speak from GOD"
Are all these texts "Wrong"??
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt; you're being puposefully obtuse. The public revelation I was talking about was direct to the world. But, duh, yes, private revelation is direct as well, to the receiver. They're still very rare, and often lied about
or are even possibly demonic in some instances. Joseph Smith, for example, did not receive them, did not speak for God.
I think there there's a failure to understand Christ who saidWhere does holy scripture say that saint Paul read the old testament to learn about Jesus Christ? I think you made that up.
I assure you, we have read those things, but we also know that those things pertain to what is called the Old Testament. So what of the New Testament, or what of the extra-scriptural tradition which defines the compilation of either the Old or New Testaments?I think there there's a failure to understand Christ who said
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Does a fear of SS keep you from reading these things?
Why should I? John's revelation became part of God's public revelation at the onset of Christianity-as it was received as having that purpose by the church and proclaimed by her as such. We also accept Paul's revelations in the same manner-which obviously were influential in his and therefore our understanding of the gospel.You are not giving any Bible support for anything in your story. Please provide something like Bible evidence for "to the world" for Moses but "not to the world" for John.
Ok? Don't recall saying I didn't like him-even though I'll admit that I certainly don't think much of him.Smith was a false prophet - not because we don't "like him" but because what he said fails the test of scripture - sola scriptura testing. "If they speak not according to this WORD there is no light in them" Is 8:20
fhansen said: ↑
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt; you're being puposefully obtuse. The public revelation I was talking about was direct to the world. But, duh, yes, private revelation is direct as well, to the receiver. They're still very rare, and often lied about
Why should I?
John's revelation became part of God's public revelation at the onset of Christianity
John's revelation became part of God's public revelation at the onset of Christianity
-as it was received as having that purpose by the church and proclaimed by her as such. We also accept Paul's revelations in the same manner-which obviously were influential in his and therefore our understanding of the gospel.
You wish to maintain that whole new revelation can be added to what was once and for all delivered to the saints. But nothing more is needed with God's New Covenant, having the purpose of man's salvation.
Nothing new to be revealed until Christ comes again. 1 Tim 6:14, Titus 2:13
Nothing new to be revealed until Christ comes again. 1 Tim 6:14, Titus 2:13
I'll repeat again for your benefit. John's revelation was part of that which was given with Christ's advent-so it was public. Why? Because the church received it as such. Why is the NT canon what it is? Because the church received it as such.You are not giving any Bible support for anything in your story. Please provide something like Bible evidence for "to the world" for Moses but "not to the world" for John. -- "To the world" with Isaiah but not with Paul.
No, even many of Jesus's words weren't spoken publicly-to the world directly, but were revealed by the writers of the NT and therefore became part of the public revelation. There's simply a body of beliefs and teachings that were made known or revealed at the onset of Christianity that the church accepted as the revelation God meant for man to have for the purpose of his salvation. Is that difficult to understand for some reason? Is there some reason that the Church of God should accept your personal opinion and private interpretations as correct, interpretations that diverge from much of Christianity BTW, not just RC?Without actual support for your wild speculation - there is no compelling reason for the "objective unbiased reader" to take them seriously.
Care to give some "substance" for the guesswork??
Because someone other than John became aware of it? Because it was promoted - just as Paul said was being done in 1Cor 14 "when you come together... EACH ONE has a revelation"??
So then when Agabus gives his prophetic statement to Paul - and Paul accepts it - it is because Agabus first went to the entire world with it??
When Nathan gives his prophetic statement to David and David accepts it - it is because Nathan first went to the entire world with it so that David would know to accept it?
I never said otherwise. I maintain that those were given in conjunction with Christ's first advent, nothing to do with His ascension.So then in your examples with John and Paul - you accept full well that the prophetic gift extends beyond the ascension of Christ.
SS doesn't work-or else SDA should be in harmony with the rest of SS adherents, who also don't necessarily harmonize with each other. The only way Scripture can be understood fully, in the Spirit in which it was written, is for God to grant that understanding. Non-biblical documents, such as the creeds or concilliar decrees such as those concerned with the Trinity at Nicea were made in that same Spirit, correctly discerning Scripture together with the traditions, the experience, the Church as a whole had undergone or received.Making up new rules about how prophecy works - that do not fit the actual Bible - is another way to have a man-made tradition rejected "sola scriptura".
No, you seem to be arguing that-and that even more are needed now. All revelation that occurred in conjunction with Christs advent were given by Him for His purposes. No more are needed.You appear to be arguing that the New Covenant was not sufficient at the resurrection of Christ - and so more prophets are on record in the NT as prophesying after Christ's resurrection.
I never said gifts ceased. They are still important, including private revelations, at God's discretion. I said "no new revelation", in that nothing new is needed to be revealed for our understanding of the gospel/salvation; Christ's work was complete. This doesn't mean He doesn't continue to communicate with us today.Here again - making stuff up - will then be judged "sola scriptura" to see if the Bible actually proclaims that the New Covenant was "incomplete at the cross" ... "in complete" at the resurrection of Christ -- and that the Bible says "once the NEW Covenant is established no more gifts of the Holy Spirit pertaining to prophecy".
SS doesn't work. The church received a gift 2 millenia ago. She knows what it is-she knew what it was then, before a word of the NT was written-and she continues to hold, preserve, and proclaim it even as her members may fumble and fail and disappoint greatly at times, failing to benefit from it or be changed by it, failing to heed its message. But it doesn't help at all for someone to come along years later, pick up and read the bible and then begin to make what, for all practical purposes, amount to infallible pronouncements on its meaning, perhaps also claiming to receive new, critical revelation, perhaps also asserting themselves to be the authentic restored or continuation of the true church.In other words "making stuff up" is easy to "test sola scriptura".
So, do we agree that Christ modeled SS for us regarding the transition from old to new? If so, then at last, we might move into the NT accounts. Your fellow RCers simply can't acknowledge what is so obvious to everyone else.I assure you, we have read those things, but we also know that those things pertain to what is called the Old Testament. So what of the New Testament, or what of the extra-scriptural tradition which defines the compilation of either the Old or New Testaments?
What's been demonstrated is that Scripture is very important to the Church, as a source of revelation, as God's Word, and that a third party, an agent designated by and guided by God, is critical in understanding and explaining it.So, do we agree that Christ modeled SS for us regarding the transition from old to new? If so, then at last, we might move into the NT accounts. Your fellow RCers simply can't acknowledge what is so obvious to everyone else.
No. Though Jesus explained Scripture regarding himself, that did not nullify his own words which were not Scripture at the time. Though Paul and Philip and others explained prophecies of the Old Testament and others verified those claims against the Old Testament, there were things which were spoken and not written. Paul spoke to the Thessalonians of things before he eventually wrote them, and there is no guarantee in Scripture that all things were recorded in Scripture, nor is there any guarantee in Scripture that each of the writings we accept as Scripture is actually Scripture.So, do we agree that Christ modeled SS for us regarding the transition from old to new?
Then he told them, 'This is what I meant when I said, while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses, in the Prophets and in the Psalms, was destined to be fulfilled.' He then opened their minds to understand the scriptures, and he said to them, 'So it is written that the Christ would suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, and that, in his name, repentance for the forgiveness of sins would be preached to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. You are witnesses to this.I think there there's a failure to understand Christ who saidWhere does holy scripture say that saint Paul read the old testament to learn about Jesus Christ? I think you made that up.
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Does a fear of SS keep you from reading these things?
Standing Up said: ↑
I think there there's a failure to understand Christ who said
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Does a fear of SS keep you from reading these things?
True. But ya gotta admit Paul did suffer a lot after his conversion to Jesus.Then he told them, 'This is what I meant when I said, while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses, in the Prophets and in the Psalms, was destined to be fulfilled.'
He then opened their minds to understand the scriptures, and he said to them, 'So it is written that the Christ would suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, and that, in his name, repentance for the forgiveness of sins would be preached to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. You are witnesses to this.
(Luke 24:44-48 NJB)
The passage that you quoted is addressed to the apostles any years before saint Paul had his Damascus Road vision of the Lord Jesus Christ. Did you not notice that the passage is not about saint Paul?
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