St. Leo the Great was a Papist?

dóxatotheó · Oct 31, 2021

First Quote that always interested me.

XII. In Case of Difference of Opinion Between the Vicar and the Bishops, the Bishop of Rome Must Be Consulted. The Subordination of Authorities in the Church Expounded.

But if in that which you believed necessary to be discussed and settled with the brethren, their opinion differs from your own wishes, let all be referred to us, with the minutes of your proceedings attested, that all ambiguities may be removed, and what is pleasing to God decided. For to this end we direct all our desires and pains, that what conduces to our harmonious unity and to the protection of discipline may be marred by no dissension and neglected by no slothfulness. Therefore, dearly beloved brother, you and those our brethren who are offended at your extravagant conduct (though the matter of complaint is not the same with all), we exhort and warn not to disturb by any wrangling what has been rightfully ordained and wisely settled. Let none “seek what is his own, but what is another’s,” as the Apostle says: “Let each one of you please his neighbour for his good unto edifying15 .” For the cementing of our unity cannot be firm unless we be bound by the bond of love into an inseparable solidity: because “as in one body we have many members, but all the members have not the same office; so we being many are one body in Christ, and all of us members one of another16 .” The connexion of the whole body makes all alike healthy, all alike beautiful: and this connexion requires the unanimity indeed of the whole body, but it especially demands harmony among the priests. And though they have a common dignity, yet they have not uniform rank; inasmuch as even among the blessed Apostles, notwithstanding the similarity of their honourable estate, there was st certain distinction of power, and while the election of them all was equal, yet it was given to one17 to take the lead of the rest. From which model has arisen a distinction between bishops also, and by an important ordinance it has been provided18 that every one should not claim everything for himself: but that there should be in each province one whose opinion should have the priority among the brethren: and again that certain whose appointment is in the greater cities should undertake a fuller responsibility, through whom the care of the universal Church should converge towards Peter’s one seat, and nothing anywhere should be separated from its Head. Let not him then who knows he has been set over certain others take it ill that some one has been set over him, but let him himself render the obedience which he demands of them: and as he does not wish to bear a heavy load of baggage, so let him not dare to place on another’s shoulders a weight that is insupportable. For we are disciples of the humble and gentle Master who says: “Learn of Me, for I am gentle and humble of heart, and ye shall find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden light19 .” And how shall we experience this, unless this too comes to our remembrance which the same Lord says: “He that is greater among you, shall be your servant. But he that exalteth himself, shall be humbled: and he that humbleth himself, shall be exalted

This quote seemingly adds the authority that Leo has when disputes are abound within the Church.

I. The churches of Rome and Alexandria should be at one in everything.

56 , in us also there may be proved to be one heart and one mind. For since the most blessed Peter received the headship of the Apostles from the 57 , formed his decrees on a different line of tradition: seeing that without doubt both disciple and master drew but one Spirit from the same fount of grace, and the ordained could not hand on aught else than what he had received from his ordainer. We do not therefore allow it that we should differ in anything, since we confess ourselves to be of one body and faith, nor that the institutions of the teacher should seem different to those of the taught.

Another Quote seemingly bringing the Church of Rome as head over the other Institutions of Christ this quote shows that these institutions are the taught from the Mother church, this quote originates from Leo when he wrote this to Dioscorus when he seperated from the Synod to create a Robber Council.

II. From Christ and through S. Peter the priesthood is handed on in perpetuity.
664 by the weight of the temple that rests upon it. For the solidity of that faith which was praised in the chief of the Apostles is perpetual: and as that remains which Peter believed in Christ, so that remains which Christ instituted in Peter. For when, as has been read in the Gospel lesson 665 the Lord had asked the disciples whom they believed Him to be amid the various opinions that were held, and the blessed Peter had replied, saying, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,” the Lord says, “Blessed art t hou, Simon Bar-Jona, because flesh and flood hath not revealed it to thee, but My Father, which is in heaven. And I say to thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock will I build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, shall be loosed also in heaven .”

The Seat of Rome Authority how it was given and how different and greater Peter was than the other apostles he also used quite odd seems to align with Vatican definition of Papacy.

We teach and declare that, according to the Gospel evidence, a primacy of jurisdiction over the whole church of God was immediately and directly promised to the blessed apostle Peter and conferred on him by Christ the Lord.… That which our lord Jesus Christ, the Prince of shepherds and great shepherd of the sheep, established in the blessed Apostle Peter, for the continual salvation and permanent benefit of the Church, must of necessity remain for ever, by Christ’s authority, in the Church which, founded as it is upon a rock, will stand firm until the end of time…

This quote shows exactly that full jurisdiction given by Jesus to Peter never ending for the end of time. He gave Peter the Keys and its binding and hes the rock.

III. S. Peter’s work is still carried out by his successors.

The dispensation of Truth therefore abides, and the blessed Peter persevering in the strength of the Rock, which he has received, has not abandoned the helm of the Church, which he undertook. For he was ordained before the rest in such a way that from his being called the Rock, from his being pronounced the Foundation, from his being constituted the Doorkeeper of the kingdom of heaven, from his being set as the Umpire to bind and to loose, whose judgments shall retain their validity in heaven, from all these mystical titles we might know the nature of his association with Christ. And still to-day he more fully and effectually performs what is entrusted to him, and carries out every part of his duty and charge in Him and with Him, through Whom he has been glorified. And so if anything is rightly done and rightly decreed by us, if anything is won from the mercy of God by our daily supplications, it is of his work and merits whose power lives and whose authority prevails in his See. For this, dearly-beloved, was gained by that confession, which, inspired in the Apostle’s heart by God the Father, transcended all the uncertainty of human opinions, and was endued with the firmness of a rock, which no assaults could shake. For throughout the Church Peter daily says, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,” and every tongue which confesses the Lord, accepts the instruction his voice conveys. This Faith conquers the devil, and breaks the bonds of his prisoners. It uproots us from this earth and plants us in heaven, and the gates of Hades cannot prevail against it. For with such solidity is it endued by God that the depravity of heretics cannot mar it nor the unbelief of the heathen overcome it.

This quote shows that Leo himself believe that he was also the see and that our Pope is also the see and we go through an apolostolic succession on given authority.
I have a few more quotes on Leos belief on his authority because this is a outstanding book I have read on the issue. How Leo spoke on the ordination of Anatolius is a perfect example of how his authority aligns with Vatican 1 this would be a pleasant discussion God Bless.

Rome owes its high position to these Apostles.

1166 . For these are the men, through whom the light of Christ’s gospel shone on thee, O Rome, and through whom thou, who wast the teacher of error, wast made the disciple of Truth. These are thy holy Fathers and true shepherds, who gave thee claims to be numbered among 1167 . These are they who promoted thee to such glory, that being made a holy nation, a chosen people, a priestly and royal state 1168 , and the head of the world through the blessed Peter’s holy See thou didst attain a wider sway by the worship of God than by earthly government. For although thou wert increased by many victories, and didst extend thy rule on land and sea, yet what thy toils in war subdued is less than what the peace of Christ has conquered.

This quote shows Rome rules the whole world crazy init

St. Peter’s love conquered his fears in coming to Rome.

To this city then, most blessed Apostle Peter, thou dost not fear to come, and when the Apostle Paul, the partner of thy glory, was still busied with regulating other churches, didst enter this forest of roaring beasts, this deep, stormy ocean with greater boldness than when thou didst walk upon the sea. And thou who hadst been frightened by the high priest’s maid in the house of Caiaphas, hadst no fear of Rome the mistress of the world. Was there any less power in Claudius, any less cruelty in Nero than in the judgment of Pilate or the Jews’ savage rage? So then it was the force of love that conquered the reasons for fear: and thou didst not think those to be feared whom thou hadst undertaken to love. But this feeling of fearless affection thou hadst even then surely conceived when the profession of thy love for the Lord was confirmed by the mystery of the thrice-repeated question. And nothing else was demanded of this thy earnest purpose than that thou shouldst bestow the food wherewith thou hadst thyself been enriched, on feeding His sheep whom thou didst love.

Calls Rome The Mistress of the Church

dzheremi · Oct 31, 2021

With regard to the letter written to the then still-universally-recognized Pope Dioscorus of Alexandria (the second quote, which was from before what your tradition calls the 'Robber Council' -- the letter is from 445, while Ephesus II did not occur until 449), it bears mentioning that Rome and Alexandria did not "become one in all things" -- i.e., Alexandria never did adopt the practices suggested by Pope Leo so as to bring their Church in conformity with Rome.

The thing about very old quotes that you'll often find used by the Ultramontists of the RCC to show the supposed antiquity of their present-day belief is that they very rarely if ever consider them in the context of correspondence between bishops seeking consensus (in the case of disputes arising between churches), or in the case of suggestions made like those of Pope Leo to Pope Dioscorus, what I guess we can politely call probably well-meaning but still unfollowed suggestions. So this one-sided picture can create a rather distorted picture of things.

Always look at the context and what if anything followed from the Roman Pope's missives. Sometimes there's an exchange to look into, and sometimes the lack of correspondence or corresponding action can tell you something in itself.

dóxatotheó · Oct 31, 2021

dzheremi said:
With regard to the letter written to the then still-universally-recognized Pope Dioscorus of Alexandria (the second quote, which was from before what your tradition calls the 'Robber Council' -- the letter is from 445, while Ephesus II did not occur until 449), it bears mentioning that Rome and Alexandria did not "become one in all things" -- i.e., Alexandria never did adopt the practices suggested by Pope Leo so as to bring their Church in conformity with Rome.

The thing about very old quotes that you'll often find used by the Ultramontists of the RCC to show the supposed antiquity of their present-day belief is that they very rarely if ever consider them in the context of correspondence between bishops seeking consensus (in the case of disputes arising between churches), or in the case of suggestions made like those of Pope Leo to Pope Dioscorus, what I guess we can politely call probably well-meaning but still unfollowed suggestions. So this one-sided picture can create a rather distorted picture of things.

Always look at the context and what if anything followed from the Roman Pope's missives. Sometimes there's an exchange to look into, and sometimes the lack of correspondence or corresponding action can tell you something in itself.

Thanks i read the sermons and Letters too and from Leo postdate times usually what i lack knowledge on thanks for the feedback

ArmyMatt · Oct 31, 2021

dóxatotheó said:
First Quote that always interested me.

This quote seemingly adds the authority that Leo has when disputes are abound within the Church.

Another Quote seemingly bringing the Church of Rome as head over the other Institutions of Christ this quote shows that these institutions are the taught from the Mother church, this quote originates from Leo when he wrote this to Dioscorus when he seperated from the Synod to create a Robber Council.

The Seat of Rome Authority how it was given and how different and greater Peter was than the other apostles he also used quite odd seems to align with Vatican definition of Papacy. This quote shows exactly that full jurisdiction given by Jesus to Peter never ending for the end of time. He gave Peter the Keys and its binding and hes the rock.
This quote shows that Leo himself believe that he was also the see and that our Pope is also the see and we go through an apolostolic succession on given authority.
I have a few more quotes on Leos belief on his authority because this is a outstanding book I have read on the issue. How Leo spoke on the ordination of Anatolius is a perfect example of how his authority aligns with Vatican 1 this would be a pleasant discussion God Bless.
This quote shows Rome rules the whole world crazy init
Calls Rome The Mistress of the Church

yes, St Leo believed that Rome had more authority than she actually did at times (as did other Popes before him). but that’s irrelevant as no one else affirmed Rome had that level of authority.

Rome was, as the first among equals, the final appeal before an ecumenical council, but that was for good order not authority.

ArmyMatt · Oct 31, 2021

dzheremi said:
With regard to the letter written to the then still-universally-recognized Pope Dioscorus of Alexandria (the second quote, which was from before what your tradition calls the 'Robber Council' -- the letter is from 445, while Ephesus II did not occur until 449), it bears mentioning that Rome and Alexandria did not "become one in all things" -- i.e., Alexandria never did adopt the practices suggested by Pope Leo so as to bring their Church in conformity with Rome.

to be fair though to St Leo, he did toward the end write a letter to monks in Palestine saying he didn’t care if they adopted his praxis, saying all he cared about was that they were one in faith with Alexander, Athanasius, and Cyril. because if they were one in faith with them, they were one in faith with him.

dzheremi · Oct 31, 2021

ArmyMatt said:
to be fair though to St Leo, he did toward the end write a letter to monks in Palestine saying he didn’t care if they adopted his praxis, saying all he cared about was that they were one in faith with Alexander, Athanasius, and Cyril. because if they were one in faith with them, they were one in faith with him.

Yeah. That's why I wrote that it was probably well-intentioned on Leo's part. It remains the case that Alexandria did not have the reaction that Leo apparently hoped for.

ArmyMatt · Oct 31, 2021

dzheremi said:
Yeah. That's why I wrote that it was probably well-intentioned on Leo's part. It remains the case that Alexandria did not have the reaction that Leo apparently hoped for.

yeah, Rome being the capital of the Empire and so isolated from the other patriarchs made it a temptation to assume an authority they didn’t actually have. usually Rome repented.

dóxatotheó · Oct 31, 2021

ArmyMatt said:
yes, St Leo believed that Rome had more authority than she actually did at times (as did other Popes before him). but that’s irrelevant as no one else affirmed Rome had that level of authority.

Rome was, as the first among equals, the final appeal before an ecumenical council, but that was for good order not authority.

This thread isn't about other saints it's about specifically Leo which seems u agree he was.

dóxatotheó · Oct 31, 2021

dzheremi said:
With regard to the letter written to the then still-universally-recognized Pope Dioscorus of Alexandria (the second quote, which was from before what your tradition calls the 'Robber Council' -- the letter is from 445, while Ephesus II did not occur until 449), it bears mentioning that Rome and Alexandria did not "become one in all things" -- i.e., Alexandria never did adopt the practices suggested by Pope Leo so as to bring their Church in conformity with Rome.

The thing about very old quotes that you'll often find used by the Ultramontists of the RCC to show the supposed antiquity of their present-day belief is that they very rarely if ever consider them in the context of correspondence between bishops seeking consensus (in the case of disputes arising between churches), or in the case of suggestions made like those of Pope Leo to Pope Dioscorus, what I guess we can politely call probably well-meaning but still unfollowed suggestions. So this one-sided picture can create a rather distorted picture of things.

Always look at the context and what if anything followed from the Roman Pope's missives. Sometimes there's an exchange to look into, and sometimes the lack of correspondence or corresponding action can tell you something in itself.

I got a question when St.Leo said his Tome was translated incorrectly do you think that affected Antioch in anyway?

ArmyMatt · Oct 31, 2021

dóxatotheó said:
This thread isn't about other saints it's about specifically Leo which seems u agree he was.

no, I was just pointing out St Leo wasn’t alone in his incorrect understanding of his role.

dóxatotheó · Oct 31, 2021

ArmyMatt said:
no, I was just pointing out St Leo wasn’t alone in his incorrect understanding of his role.

Many people misrepresented The idea of the Rock really Theodoret believed too highly of Leo when he was at trial, so did Juvenal. I argue not that the whole synod was papist because I myself reject that notion I do argue that Leo misrepresented his role and created a belief about himself very similar to Vatican 1 definition of Papacy.

ArmyMatt · Oct 31, 2021

dóxatotheó said:
Many people misrepresented The idea of the Rock really Theodoret believed too highly of Leo when he was at trial, so did Juvenal. I argue not that the whole synod was papist because I myself reject that notion I do argue that Leo misrepresented his role and created a belief about himself very similar to Vatican 1 definition of Papacy.

what?

dóxatotheó · Oct 31, 2021

ArmyMatt said:
what?

do yk what Theodoret and Juvenal said about Leo on the trial of Dioscorus? or you confused what i mean about Leo>

dóxatotheó · Oct 31, 2021

ArmyMatt said:
what?

heres my idea on the papal authority heres session v in the Acts

Paschasinus and Lucentius the most reverend bishops and Boniface a presbyter, vicars of the Apostolic See of Rome, said: If they do not agree to the letter of that apostolic and blessed man, Pope Leo, give directions that we be given our letters of dismission, and let a synod be held there [i.e. in the West].

they really wanted the whole synod to accept the Tome with no objection many bishops held this standard that Leos Authority and theology was the voice like Peter its odd friend.

ArmyMatt · Nov 1, 2021

dóxatotheó said:
heres my idea on the papal authority heres session v in the Acts
they really wanted the whole synod to accept the Tome with no objection many bishops held this standard that Leos Authority and theology was the voice like Peter its odd friend.

okay, but that’s nothing like Vatican I

ArmyMatt · Nov 1, 2021

dóxatotheó said:
do yk what Theodoret and Juvenal said about Leo on the trial of Dioscorus? or you confused what i mean about Leo>

the tie in to Vatican I. St Leo didn’t see himself like Vatican I at all.

dóxatotheó · Nov 1, 2021

ArmyMatt said:
the tie in to Vatican I. St Leo didn’t see himself like Vatican I at all.

What way do you define Vatican 1?

dóxatotheó · Nov 1, 2021

ArmyMatt said:
okay, but that’s nothing like Vatican I

Vatican 1 is this please explain in what way this doesn't follow that he in fact held these views on his authority please explain in do detail? Cause what I provided legit said all this and more some.

We teach and declare that, according to the gospel evidence, a primacy of jurisdiction over the whole Church of God was immediately and directly promised to the blessed apostle Peter and conferred on him by Christ the lord.

2. It was to Simon alone, to whom he had already said You shall be called Cephas [42], that the Lord, after his confession, You are the Christ, the son of the living God, spoke these words:

Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of the underworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven [43] .

3. And it was to Peter alone that Jesus, after his resurrection, confided the jurisdiction of Supreme Pastor and ruler of his whole fold, saying:
Feed my lambs, feed my sheep [44].

4. To this absolutely manifest teaching of the Sacred Scriptures, as it has always been understood by the Catholic Church, are clearly opposed the distorted opinions of those who misrepresent the form of government which Christ the lord established in his Church and deny that Peter, in preference to the rest of the apostles, taken singly or collectively, was endowed by Christ with a true and proper primacy of jurisdiction.

5. The same may be said of those who assert that this primacy was not conferred immediately and directly on blessed Peter himself, but rather on the Church, and that it was through the Church that it was transmitted to him in his capacity as her minister.

6. Therefore, if anyone says that blessed Peter the apostle was not appointed by Christ the lord as prince of all the apostles and visible head of the whole Church militant; or that it was a primacy of honor only and not one of true and proper jurisdiction that he directly and immediately received from our lord Jesus Christ himself: let him be anathema.

ArmyMatt · Nov 1, 2021

dóxatotheó said:
What way do you define Vatican 1?

papal infallibility

ArmyMatt · Nov 1, 2021

dóxatotheó said:
Vatican 1 is this please explain in what way this doesn't follow that he in fact held these views on his authority please explain in do detail? Cause what I provided legit said all this and more some.

while problematic, that’s not the only issue with Vatican I. plus the fact that St Leo repented on this issue shows he didn’t understand it in the same way as Vatican I.

St. Leo the Great was a Papist?

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