ST. John Calvin

[simonthezealot]

Can't debate strawman and false premises.

How would I be misrepresenting your position if I am using ECF's you attempt to claim as your own?

And false premise??? How so?

 

[simonthezealot]

Well?

 

[Benedicta00]

The Bible says that God is not a respector of persons, He treats us all equally....and we should do the same.

Are there people we can see as good examples of a Christian walk? Yes, Paul tells us to imitate him as he imitates Christ...but this is not the same as the RCC bestowing Sainthood on someone and it doesn't call for the RCC to acknowledge our sainthood.


What do the passages I posted tell us? There are about 60 verses that us the term saint or saints...and none of them support what the RCC teaches on this.

but yet we see that he raised up ppl like Paul and others right? I am not denying Paul's use of the word... but it is not only limited to that. Those ppl then at that time in our history were saintly, no doubt... they all died for the faith, if it wasn't for them standing up for it, we would not have the faith passed down to us now.

But do you really think you have the same grace that they had, that Paul had?

And God isn't a respect of persons, He gives us all a equal opportunity to come to the knowledge of Him and be saved... this is another example of how you make scripture fit into your preconceived exegesis. You just aren't applying that quote correctly.

It doesn't mean that God will not raise up certain ppl to be an expale to everyone else and to build up His church.

Again, you are not understanding that this is not inferiority. I am what I am... the Saints are what they are. I'm content with the captivity I have for God. Others have more, so what?

Think of it like a gallon size container and a pint sized. When both are filled to their capacity, there is no room left for more... they are full ...this is how it is between ordinary saints in heaven and those who are called "Great in the kingdom of heaven." Both are full of the glory that they have the captivity to hold.

Read Matthew sermon on the Mt. Jesus said, there are those who are called "Great" in the kingdom and those who care called least.

 

[Benedicta00]

How would I be misrepresenting your position if I am using ECF's you attempt to claim as your own?

And false premise??? How so?

I'm not interested because you aren't intellectually honest. There aren't any ECF that say what you claim...

 

[mont974x4]

but yet we see that he raised up ppl like Paul and others right? I am not denying Paul's use of the word... but it is not only limited to that. Those ppl then at that time in our history were saintly, no doubt... they all died for the faith, if it wasn't for them standing up for it, we would not have the faith passed down to us now.

But do you really think you have the same grace that they had, that Paul had?

And God isn't a respect of persons, He gives us all a equal opportunity to come to the knowledge of Him and be saved... this is another example of how you make scripture fit into your preconceived exegesis. You just aren't applying that quote correctly.

It doesn't mean that God will not raise up certain ppl to be an expale to everyone else and to build up His church.

Again, you are not understanding that this is not inferiority. I am what I am... the Saints are what they are. I'm content with the captivity I have for God. Others have more, so what?

Think of it like a gallon size container and a pint sized. When both are filled to their capacity, there is no room left for more... they are full ...this is how it is between ordinary saints in heaven and those who are called "Great in the kingdom of heaven." Both are full of the glory that they have the captivity to hold.

Read Matthew sermon on the Mt. Jesus said, there are those who are called "Great" in the kingdom and those who care called least.

My point is, that biblically, all who are His are saints. God gives freely and generously to all His children, all wee need to do is ask.

Yes, I beleive all His children have the same grace as Paul, Peter, Calvin, Luther and all the saints.

You question my exegesis and yet reject Scripture, and ignore the ones I post because they may challenge your thinking, in favor fo tradition? Rather odd isn't it?


A hard look at Scripture will show that all His children are saints, whether we are in this imperfect body or our perfect body in paradise.

 

[simonthezealot]

I'm not interested because you aren't intellectually honest. There aren't any ECF that say what you claim...

More importantly there are NONE that say what your church claims for the first 200 years after Christ resurrected!

That is why this is of no interest to you because YOUR church LIES!They claim (KNOWN FOR ALL AGES) yet it wasn't!

EDITED TO ADD:
http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/papae1.htm

from there I found this...
For "no one can be in doubt, indeedit was known in every age that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, the pillar of faith and the foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our lord Jesus Christ, the savior and redeemer of the human race, and that to this day and for ever he lives" and presides and "exercises judgment in his successors" the bishops of the Holy Roman See, which he founded and consecrated with his blood

"Therefore whoever succeeds to the chair of Peter obtains by the institution of Christ himself, the primacy of Peter over the whole church.
So what the truth has ordained stands firm, and blessed Peter perseveres in the rock-like strength he was granted,and does not abandon that guidance of the church which he once received "
First Vatican Council

There is no room for development. According to this the first person to succeed Peter would have primacy over the whole church.

 

[Benedicta00]

My point is, that biblically, all who are His are saints. God gives freely and generously to all His children, all wee need to do is ask.

Yes, I beleive all His children have the same grace as Paul, Peter, Calvin, Luther and all the saints.

You question my exegesis and yet reject Scripture, and ignore the ones I post because they may challenge your thinking, in favor fo tradition? Rather odd isn't it?


A hard look at Scripture will show that all His children are saints, whether we are in this imperfect body or our perfect body in paradise.

Yes and no.. yes, we all the grace we need to be saved... but God did raise up extraordinary ppl to go out and do extraordinary things for His kingdom... do you disagree that He did? These pp will receive their reward. They will be called great in the kingdom.

Jesus said they are those who will be called great in the kingdom and there are those who will be called least. If you are filled to your captivity- how are you unequal? You aren't. You are full.

 

[mont974x4]

There is a diference between the ranking (least and greatest) in Heaven and the RCC ideal of saint vs Saint.


We all (the saints) have the potential to do great things for His kingdom, it hinges on our obedience.

 

[Benedicta00]

Mont,

19 He therefore that shall break one of these least commandments, and shall so teach men, shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. But he that shall do and teach, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I tell you, that unless your justice abound more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

We have those who will be called least, and we have those who will be called great and then we have those who might not be called at all...

Also, Jesus gave us the beatitudes, a list of virtues that those who posses these can be called "Blessed" aka, ppl who went on to be with the Lord. Who is called "blessed" refers to those n heaven, not those on earth.

Jesus also said, by their fruits we will know them... we will know who is in heaven by the fruit they display.

None of what Catholicism teaches is against scripture, Mont... none of it is.

 

[Benedicta00]

There is a diference between the ranking (least and greatest) in Heaven and the RCC ideal of saint vs Saint.


We all (the saints) have the potential to do great things for His kingdom, it hinges on our obedience.

No there isn't a differnce and this is what I'm trying to make you see.

 

[mont974x4]

The audience of the Beatitudes is people living on earth, with descritions of some things that will occur in the enxt life.


There is no saint vs Saint issue in Scripture as the RCC teaches. The idea of incorruoptibility or needing to be acknowledged by the RCC as a Saint, or the RCC bestowing sainthood just isn't in Scripture.


If we are saved, we are saints. There is no other group in Scripture.

 

[Benedicta00]

The audience of the Beatitudes is people living on earth, with descritions of some things that will occur in the enxt life.


There is no saint vs Saint issue in Scripture as the RCC teaches. The idea of incorruoptibility or needing to be acknowledged by the RCC as a Saint, or the RCC bestowing sainthood just isn't in Scripture.


If we are saved, we are saints. There is no other group in Scripture.

I have said that Mont, if we are saved we are a saint... but NONE of us are saved in the past tense... we are all making our way... we have salvation and we have to make sure we do not lose it, aka, we have to work it out with fear and trembling, fear not to shipwreck our faith. Like Paul taught us.

And how can we examine the fruits a person's life has born and call them blessed when they are still alive?

We can't... Jesus said a good tree can not produce bad fruit and a bad tree can not produce good fruit.

How can we examine if a person's tree was bad or good when they are still alive?

What we are remains to be seen Mont... anything can happen between now and when we are called home.

Those who are blessed are those who live the beatitudes, those are the fruits Christ said a "saved" person, aka Saint in heaven will have.

The difference between saint and Saint is who had them to an heroic, extraordinary extent and degree, who had them to an ordinary degree and who didn't have them at all.

We can't judge what kind of life a person lived blessed or not, until they are no longer living, Mont.

 

[mont974x4]

Well, the Bible calls living people saints many times. These are saved, not in the process of being saved.

We most certainly judge the living, we see that example time and time again in the Bible as well.


We have the Holy Spirit and as we grow in Him, in this life, we do produce fruit. Dead tree's produce no fruit.



I'm a saved man, a saint, by His grace alone regardless of what the RCC teaches, or thinks of me.

 

[mont974x4]

What do these tell us?

(Psa 16:3) As for the saints who are in the earth, They are the majestic ones in whom is all my delight.
(Psa 34:9) O fear the LORD, you His saints; For to those who fear Him there is no want.
(Dan 7:18) 'But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, for all ages to come.'
(Dan 7:21) "I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them
(Dan 7:22) until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.
(Dan 7:25) 'He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.
(Dan 7:27) 'Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.'
(Mat 27:52) The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
(Act 9:13) But Ananias answered, "Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he did to Your saints at Jerusalem;
(Act 9:32) Now as Peter was traveling through all those regions, he came down also to the saints who lived at Lydda.
(Act 9:41) And he gave her his hand and raised her up; and calling the saints and widows, he presented her alive.
(Act 26:10) "And this is just what I did in Jerusalem; not only did I lock up many of the saints in prisons, having received authority from the chief priests, but also when they were being put to death I cast my vote against them.
(Rom 1:7) to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
(Rom 8:27) and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
(Rom 12:13) contributing to the needs of the saints, practicing hospitality.
(Rom 15:25) but now, I am going to Jerusalem serving the saints.
(Rom 15:26) For Macedonia and Achaia have been pleased to make a contribution for the poor among the saints in Jerusalem.
(Rom 15:31) that I may be rescued from those who are disobedient in Judea, and that my service for Jerusalem may prove acceptable to the saints;
(Rom 16:2) that you receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and that you help her in whatever matter she may have need of you; for she herself has also been a helper of many, and of myself as well.
(Rom 16:15) Greet Philologus and Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints who are with them.
(1Co 1:2) To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:
(1Co 6:1) Does any one of you, when he has a case against his neighbor, dare to go to law before the unrighteous and not before the saints?
(1Co 6:2) Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts?
(1Co 14:33) for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
(1Co 16:1) Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the churches of Galatia, so do you also.
(1Co 16:15) Now I urge you, brethren (you know the household of Stephanas, that they were the first fruits of Achaia, and that they have devoted themselves for ministry to the saints),
(2Co 1:1) Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God which is at Corinth with all the saints who are throughout Achaia:
(2Co 8:4) begging us with much urging for the favor of participation in the support of the saints,
(2Co 9:1) For it is superfluous for me to write to you about this ministry to the saints;
(2Co 9:12) For the ministry of this service is not only fully supplying the needs of the saints, but is also overflowing through many thanksgivings to God.
(2Co 13:13) All the saints greet you.
(Eph 1:1) Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:
(Eph 1:15) For this reason I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which exists among you and your love for all the saints,
(Eph 1:18) I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
(Eph 2:19) So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household,
(Eph 3:8) To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ,
(Eph 3:18) may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth,
(Eph 4:12) for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;
(Eph 5:3) But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints;
(Eph 6:18) With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints,
(Php 1:1) Paul and Timothy, bond-servants of Christ Jesus, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, including the overseers and deacons:
(Php 4:22) All the saints greet you, especially those of Caesar's household.
(Col 1:2) To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father.
(Col 1:4) since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and the love which you have for all the saints;
(Col 1:12) giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.
(Col 1:26) that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints,
(1Th 3:13) so that He may establish your hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.
(2Th 1:10) when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed--for our testimony to you was believed.
(1Ti 5:10) having a reputation for good works; and if she has brought up children, if she has shown hospitality to strangers, if she has washed the saints' feet, if she has assisted those in distress, and if she has devoted herself to every good work.
(Phm 1:5) because I hear of your love and of the faith which you have toward the Lord Jesus and toward all the saints;
(Phm 1:7) For I have come to have much joy and comfort in your love, because the hearts of the saints have been refreshed through you, brother.
(Heb 6:10) For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints.
(Heb 13:24) Greet all of your leaders and all the saints. Those from Italy greet you.
(Jud 1:3) Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.
(Rev 5:8) When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
(Rev 8:3) Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne.
(Rev 8:4) And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel's hand.
(Rev 11:18) "And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth."
(Rev 13:7) It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.
(Rev 13:10) If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.
(Rev 14:12) Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
(Rev 16:6) for they poured out the blood of saints and prophets, and You have given them blood to drink. They deserve it."
(Rev 17:6) And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. When I saw her, I wondered greatly.
(Rev 18:20) "Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and apostles and prophets, because God has pronounced judgment for you against her."
(Rev 18:24) "And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth."
(Rev 19:8) It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
(Rev 20:9) And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

 

[Benedicta00]

Well, the Bible calls living people saints many times.

Never said the bible doesn't.

These are saved, not in the process of being saved.

Where does the bible say that?

John...

2 Dearly beloved, we are now the sons of God; and it hath not yet appeared what we shall be. We know, that, when he shall appear, we shall be like to him: because we shall see him as he is.

3 And every one that hath this hope in him, sanctifieth himself, as he also is holy.

IOW anyone who has this hope... the hope of salvation, those who are baptized (and the bible never says that we, the baptized have salvation in the past tense) must sanctify himself, he must be holy as God is holy if he wants to see the face of God.

We most certainly judge the living, we see that example time and time again in the Bible as well.

and what if we judge them and call them 'saved' and they change? or what if we judge them and call them damned and they change?

How can we judge a person's where abouts in the after life when they are still alive in this life?

We have the Holy Spirit and as we grow in Him, in this life, we do produce fruit. Dead tree's produce no fruit.

I agree... but alive trees can grow and then become neglected and then they can wither... it is never over until it's over. PPl can fall away, it's nieve to believe they can't.

I'm a saved man, a saint, by His grace alone regardless of what the RCC teaches, or thinks of me.

I don't disagree, but in context... Dearly beloved, we are now the sons of God; and it hath not yet appeared what we shall be. We know, that, when he shall appear, we shall be like to him: because we shall see him as he is

 

[Benedicta00]

What do these tell us?

(Psa 16:3) As for the saints who are in the earth, They are the majestic ones in whom is all my delight.
(Psa 34:9) O fear the LORD, you His saints; For to those who fear Him there is no want.
(Dan 7:18) 'But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, for all ages to come.'
(Dan 7:21) "I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them
(Dan 7:22) until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.
(Dan 7:25) 'He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.
(Dan 7:27) 'Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.'
(Mat 27:52) The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
(Act 9:13) But Ananias answered, "Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he did to Your saints at Jerusalem;
(Act 9:32) Now as Peter was traveling through all those regions, he came down also to the saints who lived at Lydda.
(Act 9:41) And he gave her his hand and raised her up; and calling the saints and widows, he presented her alive.
(Act 26:10) "And this is just what I did in Jerusalem; not only did I lock up many of the saints in prisons, having received authority from the chief priests, but also when they were being put to death I cast my vote against them.
(Rom 1:7) to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
(Rom 8:27) and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
(Rom 12:13) contributing to the needs of the saints, practicing hospitality.
(Rom 15:25) but now, I am going to Jerusalem serving the saints.
(Rom 15:26) For Macedonia and Achaia have been pleased to make a contribution for the poor among the saints in Jerusalem.
(Rom 15:31) that I may be rescued from those who are disobedient in Judea, and that my service for Jerusalem may prove acceptable to the saints;
(Rom 16:2) that you receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and that you help her in whatever matter she may have need of you; for she herself has also been a helper of many, and of myself as well.
(Rom 16:15) Greet Philologus and Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints who are with them.
(1Co 1:2) To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:
(1Co 6:1) Does any one of you, when he has a case against his neighbor, dare to go to law before the unrighteous and not before the saints?
(1Co 6:2) Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts?
(1Co 14:33) for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
(1Co 16:1) Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the churches of Galatia, so do you also.
(1Co 16:15) Now I urge you, brethren (you know the household of Stephanas, that they were the first fruits of Achaia, and that they have devoted themselves for ministry to the saints),
(2Co 1:1) Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God which is at Corinth with all the saints who are throughout Achaia:
(2Co 8:4) begging us with much urging for the favor of participation in the support of the saints,
(2Co 9:1) For it is superfluous for me to write to you about this ministry to the saints;
(2Co 9:12) For the ministry of this service is not only fully supplying the needs of the saints, but is also overflowing through many thanksgivings to God.
(2Co 13:13) All the saints greet you.
(Eph 1:1) Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:
(Eph 1:15) For this reason I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which exists among you and your love for all the saints,
(Eph 1:18) I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
(Eph 2:19) So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household,
(Eph 3:8) To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ,
(Eph 3:18) may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth,
(Eph 4:12) for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;
(Eph 5:3) But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints;
(Eph 6:18) With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints,
(Php 1:1) Paul and Timothy, bond-servants of Christ Jesus, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, including the overseers and deacons:
(Php 4:22) All the saints greet you, especially those of Caesar's household.
(Col 1:2) To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father.
(Col 1:4) since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and the love which you have for all the saints;
(Col 1:12) giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.
(Col 1:26) that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints,
(1Th 3:13) so that He may establish your hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.
(2Th 1:10) when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed--for our testimony to you was believed.
(1Ti 5:10) having a reputation for good works; and if she has brought up children, if she has shown hospitality to strangers, if she has washed the saints' feet, if she has assisted those in distress, and if she has devoted herself to every good work.
(Phm 1:5) because I hear of your love and of the faith which you have toward the Lord Jesus and toward all the saints;
(Phm 1:7) For I have come to have much joy and comfort in your love, because the hearts of the saints have been refreshed through you, brother.
(Heb 6:10) For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints.
(Heb 13:24) Greet all of your leaders and all the saints. Those from Italy greet you.
(Jud 1:3) Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.
(Rev 5:8) When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
(Rev 8:3) Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne.
(Rev 8:4) And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel's hand.
(Rev 11:18) "And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth."
(Rev 13:7) It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.
(Rev 13:10) If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.
(Rev 14:12) Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
(Rev 16:6) for they poured out the blood of saints and prophets, and You have given them blood to drink. They deserve it."
(Rev 17:6) And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. When I saw her, I wondered greatly.
(Rev 18:20) "Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and apostles and prophets, because God has pronounced judgment for you against her."
(Rev 18:24) "And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth."
(Rev 19:8) It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
(Rev 20:9) And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

Just what I've been saying...

 

[mont974x4]

That passage says it well..."..now sons of God.." It isn't a future event.

If a person has made a confession of faith then we count them as brothers and sisters in Christ, as saved, as saints. They are placed in accountability to us, as we are to them, and we can most certainly see their fruit in this life.

The RCC can not usurp the authority of God, as it so often does try to do.

Look at the verses I posted, in context preferably, and see what makes people saints.

 

[Benedicta00]

That passage says it well..."..now sons of God.." It isn't a future event.

If a person has made a confession of faith then we count them as brothers and sisters in Christ, as saved, as saints. They are placed in accountability to us, as we are to them, and we can most certainly see their fruit in this life.

The RCC can not usurp the authority of God, as it so often does try to do.

Look at the verses I posted, in context preferably, and see what makes people saints.

But John goes on to say, "and what we are has not yet appeared..."

So you have a dilemma on your hands.. a either/or situation, you put yourself in the position of having to choose.

But it's a false choice, a bogus dilemma.

We indeed are now the sons of God... that is what all the baptized are, children of God, redeemed, reconciled back to Him... but how does that make us saved in the past tense? Our salvation is only as good as the moment with live in.

I can, at anytime, choose to reject God and His salvation... can't I?

 

[mont974x4]

saints (suing Strongs)

G40
ἅγιος
hagios
hag'-ee-os
From ἅγος hagos (an awful thing) compare G53, [H2282]; sacred (physically pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially consecrated): - (most) holy (one, thing), saint.


We are made this way through the blood of Christ. We are called new creations at that point. We are saved, we are saints.

 

[mont974x4]

I believe in eternal secuirty. God is faithful and like the father in the account of the prodigal son, He welcomes us into His arms when we repent and Christ is the good Shepherd who will search us out.

I can attest to that from my own life.