St. Augustines "The Retractions"

[GreekGrl]

I have read in varying Orthodox writting that St. Augustines "The Retractions" have stated that he had given too much creedence to Peter as a "rock". This statement gives depth to the Orthodox teaching of equallity amongst all apostles...thus equallity amongt Bishops.
Yet, The Catholic church utilizes St. Augustine in it's own quest for supreme rulership.
How can this be?

 

[Lukaris]

I do not know much about St. Augustine but our parish priest (who originally ordained an RC priest) told me that St. Augustine affirmed the collegiality of bishops and that whatever issues may exist with his theology, his ecclesiology was Orthodox.

 

[E.C.]

I have read in varying Orthodox writting that St. Augustines "The Retractions" have stated that he had given too much creedence to Peter as a "rock". This statement gives depth to the Orthodox teaching of equallity amongst all apostles...thus equallity amongt Bishops.
Yet, The Catholic church utilizes St. Augustine in it's own quest for supreme rulership.
How can this be?

The same way the Westboro Baptist Church justifies their hatred of anybody: they take a text and they pick and prod and pick and prod until they have enough "evidence" to support whatever claim they are making. The important part is to forget and "brush under the rug" any evidence that could go against the claim.

 

[Barky]

I was pondering "The Retractions" today as well. To what extent does St. Augustine "Retract" what he preached? Did Aquinas disregard this text and run with what Augustine later retracted?

 

[GreekGrl]

I was pondering "The Retractions" today as well. To what extent does St. Augustine "Retract" what he preached? Did Aquinas disregard this text and run with what Augustine later retracted?

Wow, that is a really good question! Ant takers ..........

 

[Gwendolyn]

I've never read the retractions, but I have access to library so maybe I'll pick them up in the next little while.

 

[Lukaris]

Here is an article re St. Augustine's Retractions: http://www.augnet.org/default.asp?ipageid=272

 

[Barky]

Here is an article re St. Augustine's Retractions: http://www.augnet.org/default.asp?ipageid=272

I appreciate the post. Unfortunately I don't think that article told me anything. There's a quote that says "he's consistent in doctrine throughout his life" but that's about it. It doesn't claim or try to say anything about the retractions themselves, other than a biographical account of their creation. Am I missing something here?

 

[Tzaousios]

I have read in varying Orthodox writting that St. Augustines "The Retractions" have stated that he had given too much creedence to Peter as a "rock". This statement gives depth to the Orthodox teaching of equallity amongst all apostles...thus equallity amongt Bishops.
Yet, The Catholic church utilizes St. Augustine in it's own quest for supreme rulership.
How can this be?

Concerning the primacy of Peter and the Roman Catholic Church, I do not think he ever wavered from his affirmative opinion. He was a bishop in a primarily Western see, Hippo in North Africa. During the Donatist and Pelagian controversies he maintained close ties with the Church in Rome and with the imperial government at Milan.

I appreciate the post. Unfortunately I don't think that article told me anything. There's a quote that says "he's consistent in doctrine throughout his life" but that's about it. It doesn't claim or try to say anything about the retractions themselves, other than a biographical account of their creation. Am I missing something here?

Augustine's Retractationes was a work he wrote near the end of his life c. 430. In it he reviews all of his major writings (except letters) and comments on them. Most of what he says is reinforcing points he has already made. He does clarify some points or states where he was in error and came to believe something else.

Concerning the primacy of Peter and the Roman Catholic Church, I do not think he ever wavered from his affirmative opinion. He was a bishop in a primarily Western see, Hippo in North Africa. During the Donatist and Pelagian controversies he maintained close ties with the Church in Rome and with the imperial government at Milan.

The quote in the article of "he's consistent in doctrine throughout his life" is surely false. It is evident that his thought developed and changed from his early to later years. He went through theological phases where he showed influence from Neoplatonism, his mentor Ambrose, and a preference for Pauline exegesis in Romans (as opposed to that of the Corinthian epistles).

One example that stands out in my mind is his views concerning foreknowledge, predestination, and grace. Circa 394 and before, he agreed with the Greek fathers that God had predestined people for salvation based on His foreknowledge of their response to the Gospel. By 396, in his letter to Simplician, against the Manicheans, and later against the Pelagians, his views changed to a strict monergistic, almost Calvinistic, view of predestination - God chose a remnant to save before Creation and allowed the rest to continue to their destruction.

 

[simonthezealot]

Augustine explains that his view that Peter is the rock of Matthew 16 was later replaced by the view that Christ is the rock. Notice that he refers to his former view being *replaced*, not just adding a second interpretation to it. He says that the reader can decide for himself which interpretation is more likely. He expects the reader to choose between the two, not accept both. Thus, Augustine advocated the *rejection* of the view that Peter is the rock, and he said that others could do the same, here it is...
"In a passage in this book, I said about the Apostle Peter: 'On him as on a rock the Church was built.'...
But I know that very frequently at a later time, I so explained what the Lord said: 'Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,' that it be understood as built upon Him whom Peter confessed saying: 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,' and so Peter, called after this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon this rock, and has received 'the keys of the kingdom of heaven.' For, 'Thou art Peter' and not 'Thou art the rock' was said to him. But 'the rock was Christ,' in confessing whom, as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter. But let the reader decide which of these two opinions is the more probable." (The Retractions, 1:20:1)

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Augustine explains that his view that Peter is the rock of Matthew 16 was later replaced by the view that Christ is the rock. Notice that he refers to his former view being *replaced*, not just adding a second interpretation to it. He says that the reader can decide for himself which interpretation is more likely. He expects the reader to choose between the two, not accept both. Thus, Augustine advocated the *rejection* of the view that Peter is the rock, and he said that others could do the same, here it is...
............... But 'the rock was Christ,' in confessing whom, as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter. But let the reader decide which of these two opinions is the more probable." (The Retractions, 1:20:1)

Sounds a bit like Augustine was pretty much Sola Scriptura in that regard......

Edit to add: I started a thread on the GT board concerning this:

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7353336

Revelation 1:3 Happy the one reading/ana-ginwskwn <314> (5723) and the ones hearing the words of the prophecy and keepings the in it having been written for the time nigh.

Matt 24:15 "Whenever then ye may be seeing the abomination of the desolation the being declared thru Daniel the prophet having stood in a place, holy (the one reading/ana-ginwskwn <314> (5723) let be understanding!/noeitw <3539> (5720)

 

[simonthezealot]

Sounds a bit like Augustine was pretty much Sola Scriptura in that regard......

Revelation 1:3 Happy the one reading/ana-ginwskwn <314> (5723) and the ones hearing the words of the prophecy and keepings the in it having been written for the time nigh.

Matt 24:15 "Whenever then ye may be seeing the abomination of the desolation the being declared thru Daniel the prophet having stood in a place, holy (the one reading/ana-ginwskwn <314> (5723) let be understanding!/noeitw <3539> (5720)

"Every sickness of the soul hath in Scripture its proper remedy." - Augustine (Expositions on the Psalms, 37:2)
here



"In order to leave room for such profitable discussions of difficult questions, there is a distinct boundary line separating all productions subsequent to apostolic times from the authoritative canonical books of the Old and New Testaments. The authority of these books has come down to us from the apostles through the successions of bishops and the extension of the Church, and, from a position of lofty supremacy, claims the submission of every faithful and pious mind....In the innumerable books that have been written latterly we may sometimes find the same truth as in Scripture, but there is not the same authority. Scripture has a sacredness peculiar to itself." - Augustine (Reply to Faustus the Manichaean, 11:5) here

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

"Every sickness of the soul hath in Scripture its proper remedy." - Augustine (Expositions on the Psalms, 37:2)
here

"In order to leave room for such profitable discussions of difficult questions, there is a distinct boundary line separating all productions subsequent to apostolic times from the authoritative canonical books of the Old and New Testaments. The authority of these books has come down to us from the apostles through the successions of bishops and the extension of the Church, and, from a position of lofty supremacy, claims the submission of every faithful and pious mind....In the innumerable books that have been written latterly we may sometimes find the same truth as in Scripture, but there is not the same authority. Scripture has a sacredness peculiar to itself." - Augustine (Reply to Faustus the Manichaean, 11:5) here

Thank you stz

 

[Rick Otto]

yeah, good stuff.

 

[Sphinx777]

​

 

[ArmyMatt]

yeah, there is a book out called what the Church Fathers Say About, and about Petrine Supremicy, St Augustine's retractions are quoted as him being against it. St Peter was chosen from among the Apostles, but he was never placed above the rest of them. and no one denies the sacredness of Scripture. being the highest authority and the sole authority are two different things.

 

[Ignatius21]

yeah, there is a book out called what the Church Fathers Say About, and about Petrine Supremicy, St Augustine's retractions are quoted as him being against it. St Peter was chosen from among the Apostles, but he was never placed above the rest of them. and no one denies the sacredness of Scripture. being the highest authority and the sole authority are two different things.

I think many fathers are often quoted saying pretty magnificent things about the position of the Bishop of Rome. What I always come back to is a qualitative difference between primacy and supremacy.

In theory one can have primacy and preside over all others as a "first among equals." That role as president could even afford the primate the right of vetoing the decisions reached by the group, or the necessity of his confirmation to seal and enact the decision. It could even go so far as to be impossible for final consensus to be reached without the consent of that primate.

This is still not immediate and unilateral supremacy, such that the primate is free to entirely contradict the rest and do something on his own authority, irreformably, such that "he himself is judged by no one."

I would still say that, even if one or many church fathers really did have a high view of Petrine primacy, and a view that such primacy was uniquely Rome's, it still does not equate to a belief that such primacy allowed the Bishop of Rome to act and enact unilaterally and immediately.

 

[Rick Otto]

I have read in varying Orthodox writting that St. Augustines "The Retractions" have stated that he had given too much creedence to Peter as a "rock". This statement gives depth to the Orthodox teaching of equallity amongst all apostles...thus equallity amongt Bishops.
Yet, The Catholic church utilizes St. Augustine in it's own quest for supreme rulership.
How can this be?

Profitable convenience.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Profitable convenience.

Blue Letter Bible - Search Results for KJV
(profit)
occurs 45 times in 43 verses in the KJV

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G5623&t=KJV
Strong's Number G5623 matches the Greek &#8032;&#966;&#949;&#955;&#8051;&#969; (&#333;phele&#333, which occurs 19 times in 15 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

Young) Hebrews 13:9 with teachings manifold and strange be not carried about, for [it is] good that by grace the heart be confirmed, not with meats, in which they who were occupied were not profited/wfelhqhsan <5623> (5681);

5623. opheleo o-fel-eh'-o from the same as 5622; to be useful, i.e. to benefit:--advantage, better, prevail, profit.
5622. opheleia o-fel'-i-ah from a derivative of the base of 5624; usefulness, i.e. benefit:--advantage, profit.
5624. ophelimos o-fel'-ee-mos from a form of 3786; helpful or serviceable, i.e. advantageous:--profit(-able).