Spreading the wealth is a sin

[TheReasoner]

Terms can be confusing. Capitalism essentially refers to how money is allocated. Other than in older communist societies, now largely extinct, socialist governments use 'capitalist' means, allowing private enterprise to operate freely. Thus socialism and capitalism are not necessarily political opposites. In most western economies it is more a matter accepting that the State has some role is the distribution of wealth against those who see that as purely a matter for each individual. Insofar as the OT prophets railed against those in power making unjust and oppressive laws we have biblical precedent for ruling bodies to be active is upholding the needs of the poor.

John
NZ

Quite so. Well said, well worded.

 

[godisreal36]

i knew it was a mistake to come in here yet again, but here i am. Yes goverment collects revenue for sustaining government, Here's what i think. Obama has falsified data, he has misrepresented most good things as being bad and bad as good. His preacher said that he does not wish god to bless america but damn it instead. Not a good christian to learn from and especially not for his kids! You keep on truckin' brother, truck down Obama's path. I follow jesus and the real treachings of Christ, not the Socialist or capitalist interpretation there of. Praise jesus and may his followers condemn socialism or capitalism if it fails to actualy follow jesus. I say May god bless America and the world, not damn it to hell. That preacher is motivated by his hate and racism i believe, is that the Obama you follow with your socialism and spreading of the wealth which is a sin anyways? Obama that some people follow, has covered the name of jesus in public for all to see, is that the Obama you follow?

 

[TheReasoner]

i knew it was a mistake to come in here yet again, but here i am. Yes goverment collects revenue for sustaining government, Here's what i think. Obama has falsified data, he has misrepresented most good things as being bad and bad as good. His preacher said that he does not wish god to bless america but damn it instead. Not a good christian to learn from and especially not for his kids! You keep on truckin' brother, truck down Obama's path. I follow jesus and the real treachings of Christ, not the Socialist or capitalist interpretation there of. Praise jesus and may his followers condemn socialism or capitalism if it fails to actualy follow jesus. I say May god bless America and the world, not damn it to hell. That preacher is motivated by his hate and racism i believe, is that the Obama you follow with your socialism and spreading of the wealth which is a sin anyways? Obama that some people follow, has covered the name of jesus in public for all to see, is that the Obama you follow?

I do not follow Obama. If you KNOW he has falsified data then prove it. Idle claims and groundless accusations are nought but vile words and serve no-one but the dark one.

Be truthful in what you say, never make a claim you cannot back. Can you back this one, and back it well? For your accusations are strong and your words smack of bitter bile if truth is absent from them, and opinions and speculation are their sole basis, then they are poison and sinfully uttered.

 

[Hans Talhoffer]

Huh? Well, the bible begs to differ Hans!



There's also the matter of the poor widow who gave in the temple, the widow in Sarepta, the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. Jesus target the ONE time He used violence: Businessmen... Maybe you do feel a need to justify your own wealth and the poverty of others so you can sleep at night, but I tell you: Do not sleep! Injustice is committed in the name of Christ, and the weak are those who suffer.

The bible is clear as crystal on this. Not helping the poor is -literally- a damnable offense. Material wealth is of this world alone. Greed is sinful.

There is a massive difference between voluntarily helping the worthy poor, and the government forcing respectible chaste Christians to support the lifestyles of drug addicts and welfare queens.

 

[Johnnz]

There is a massive difference between voluntarily helping the worthy poor, and the government forcing respectible chaste Christians to support the lifestyles of drug addicts and welfare queens.

That's a selective statement that does not reasonably contribute to the debate. Are a nation justified in disowning public money for a single parent and children due to death or domestic abuse? Or a family where the wage earner was made redundant, or has become ill? Or left destitute by recent financial rorts? Real people with real like problems not of their own making. The OT prophets didn't think so.

John
NZ

 

[Hans Talhoffer]

That's a selective statement that does not reasonably contribute to the debate. Are a nation justified in disowning public money for a single parent and children due to death or domestic abuse? Or a family where the wage earner was made redundant, or has become ill? Or left destitute by recent financial rorts? Real people with real like problems not of their own making. The OT prophets didn't think so.

John
NZ

I'm pretty sure that giving public money to dead people and domestic abusers is a bad thing, yes. You liberals are weird.

 

[godisreal36]

Proof is in the GOP revolution that just took place in the united states congress. You wish to bury the truth under endless propaganda that is not the transparency Mr Obama promised and neither is the 2000 page health care bill that was written behind closed doors, not in the open or bipartisan as Mr Obama also promised. As i said the proof is in the GOP stampede over the once mighty socialist agenda

 

[godisreal36]

There is a massive difference between voluntarily helping the worthy poor, and the government forcing respectable chaste Christians to support the lifestyles of drug addicts and welfare queens.

And don't forget about the corrupt government who steal the money as it passes through there hands and into overburdened social programs. Socialism is not the biblical way either. And by the way, I'm poor and will except donations from those wishing to help the poor, no joke I'm not a rich hypocrite as might have been suggested. I speak to only those wishing to "spread the wealth" the way Mr Obama wants to, not the ones wanting to give the way Jesus says to. Yes I'm poor and a conservative republican just like like Abraham Lincoln.

 

[godisreal36]

That's a selective statement that does not reasonably contribute to the debate. Are a nation justified in disowning public money for a single parent and children due to death or domestic abuse? Or a family where the wage earner was made redundant, or has become ill? Or left destitute by recent financial rorts? Real people with real like problems not of their own making. The OT prophets didn't think so.

John
NZ

Forgive me if i misunderstood what you said. I'm not overeducated and not undereducated, yet i do not fully understand. Anyways, if you're saying that that people have problems and need help i agree. the church helps allot of people and some limited social programs are needed, but not in excess. You must consider the waste fraud and abuse factors and of course the bible always helps if you believe and understand its teaching.

 

[dyanis]

There is a massive difference between voluntarily helping the worthy poor, and the government forcing respectible chaste Christians to support the lifestyles of drug addicts and welfare queens.

The problem with this is that if it was a voluntary system, very few would help the poor, whether they deemed them "worthy" or not (whatever THAT means). It's much like the Kitty Genovese situation; people, and "good" people at that, will watch and agree that someone should do something...but no one does anything.

Say there is a woman who is not yet thirty. She has two young children under the age of five, one of them handicapped, and is pregnant for another. She has no husband. She receives financial assistance, Medicaid, and food stamps. Is she a "welfare queen?"

What if I tell you that the reason she had no husband is because he died of cancer recently? That he worked hard for nearly twenty years? That he pulled 70-80 hour weeks at his job until he was so ill that he couldn't work so his children and wife would have a good life? That she has a minimum-wage job she's been working at for over five years and yet there is no way that she can make ends meet with it? That she is my sister?

If she had to rely upon those who deemed her "worthy" to give her money, she'd be out on the streets soon. Yes, people have given her money, but not nearly enough for her to support herself and the children.

I have no problem supporting the poor with my taxes. I'm not a socialist, but neither do I look down on those who are less fortunate than me. As the saying goes, there but for the grace of God go I. Am I upset when I see the scammers out there who could work but just don't wish to do so? Yes. But I see a lot of people who desperately need assistance, especially in these trying economic times, and I don't begrudge them the money. It's not like they're living high on the hog; I see how my sister still struggles daily.

 

[Notamonkey]

Using a hypothetical sob story to justify confiscation of wealth(theft) is just like a woman being raped to justify abortion on demand for any reason.

You justify theft by saying people won't help unless they are forced to. Proof?
" I have no problem with supporting the poor with my taxes. I'm not a socialist,...." There is an oxymoron. Not only do I have no problem, in fact, I am happy to give my money and time to the poor personally and with tithes to the Body of Christ.

I don't trust the government since they always tend tward power, greed and corruption. More and more they remove God in their lust for power.

 

[godisreal36]

Gods word and politics, like oil and water they just don't mix.

Leave the politics out of the church. If you pass a law and use bible scripture to back it up you beter be 100% sure you are right. And i dont think any of us can do that. You can not justify a political system or political action with bible scripture. It divides the Church. God is jealous, don't worship politics. Worship Gods word instead. Politics has never helped the church...ever. I don't judge you, i too have done this, i picked the log out of my eye, i see clearly. Politics can be a stumbling.

 

[godisreal36]

The problem with this is that if it was a voluntary system, very few would help the poor, whether they deemed them "worthy" or not (whatever THAT means). It's much like the Kitty Genovese situation; people, and "good" people at that, will watch and agree that someone should do something...but no one does anything.

Say there is a woman who is not yet thirty. She has two young children under the age of five, one of them handicapped, and is pregnant for another. She has no husband. She receives financial assistance, Medicaid, and food stamps. Is she a "welfare queen?"

What if I tell you that the reason she had no husband is because he died of cancer recently? That he worked hard for nearly twenty years? That he pulled 70-80 hour weeks at his job until he was so ill that he couldn't work so his children and wife would have a good life? That she has a minimum-wage job she's been working at for over five years and yet there is no way that she can make ends meet with it? That she is my sister?

If she had to rely upon those who deemed her "worthy" to give her money, she'd be out on the streets soon. Yes, people have given her money, but not nearly enough for her to support herself and the children.

I have no problem supporting the poor with my taxes. I'm not a socialist, but neither do I look down on those who are less fortunate than me. As the saying goes, there but for the grace of God go I. Am I upset when I see the scammers out there who could work but just don't wish to do so? Yes. But I see a lot of people who desperately need assistance, especially in these trying economic times, and I don't begrudge them the money. It's not like they're living high on the hog; I see how my sister still struggles daily.

Those who are capitalist are just trying to help the poor the best way the see, the same way liberals do. Both sides are poor and rich. Both sides should leave politics out of the church. We are supposed to be one under Christ, if a presidet devides us with politics that we all know is corrupt and can't be trusted anyway, we shouldn't follow him or her on that issue. We should follow jesus in unity. How can we do this if we add corrupted politics which always devides us into the church?

 

[Johnnz]

The modern view of separation of religion and politics was unknown in biblical times. All of life was religious. Greek dualisms have had too much influence.

John
NZ

 

[godisreal36]

Jesus coming into the temple angrily busting up the place, turning over the tables, wasn't he mad at politics in Gods temple? What about separation of church and state? Many liberals will argue this for everything except spreading the wealth. Hypocrisy leaves a blemish on the white robe of liberal progressive Christians in America who follow Obama. But this is true on the other side as well. Politics and gods word don't mix very well.

 

[godisreal36]

By the way i agree that people need help, i just don't believe in using bible scripture to spread the wealth the Obama way. I am poor, real poor. thank God i don't have children. Capitalists get a bad rap, but they do provide good jobs and 2 thirds of American capitalist republicans are Christian compared to 1 third of liberal democrats. At least i saw a study on fox news one time saying that. You can believe what you like though. American republican Conservatives give much to charity. Christian Conservative republicans can be some of the greatest at helping the poor. This is not to say Liberals do not. I'm just stating a fact about capitalism in America which has been slandered viciously by false stereotypes.

 

[Notamonkey]

God's truth should be in every part of our lives. How can we be the light of the world if we let anyone tell us we should put a basket over that light for any reason or in any situation. If we do that (sit down and shut up) we cease being that salt and light of the earth. Historically salt was a valuble comodity, even payment for work, Jesus knew this. He wanted to show how much value we had because of our belief in who he claimed to be. To bow to the pressure of intimidation of those who dissagree with us is to not obey Jesus' commands to be the salt and light. As he said, to love is to obey.

 

[Notamonkey]

Jesus coming into the temple angrily busting up the place, turning over the tables, wasn't he mad at politics in Gods temple? What about separation of church and state? Many liberals will argue this for everything except spreading the wealth. Hypocrisy leaves a blemish on the white robe of liberal progressive Christians in America who follow Obama. But this is true on the other side as well. Politics and gods word don't mix very well.

Time and place, Jesus was saying God's temple was not a place to make money transactions, and Isuspect it wasn't just that. He knows mens hearts and he knew other sinful acts were being committed there. It wasn't about politics, but sin.

If Jesus wasn't involved in politics which you seem to be struggling with as a Christian, why did he challenge the power of the Pharisees? They used legalism to hold power over God's people. And they constantly challenged Jesus. Should he have roled over? Don't give me the, "but he is Jesus, you are not." line(not that I'm saying you will) because Jesus was our perfect example. Jesus din't need to pray, but he did, why? Because he wanted to lead by example. On the other hand, being fully God and fully man, maybe he did need to pray just like he needed to sleep or spend time alone with God.

 

[godisreal36]

There is a time for politics i must agree. To throw your beliefs out the door in the name of truth is ridiculous. I don't think Obama or any person is correct in using bible scripture to pass a social program. A social program may or may not be a good one. If i don't support it, does this mean someone can justly use bible scripture against me when i have an equal amount supporting my belief? That's my only point. Politics and the word don't seem to mix.

Separation of church and state, shall we do away with it then?

No we can't do that. Lets not Spread others wealth around and call it gods will being done, because if i don't think it's Gods will, you accuse me of not doing gods will. A double edge sword.

 

[TheReasoner]

There is a time for politics i must agree. To throw your beliefs out the door in the name of truth is ridiculous. I don't think Obama or any person is correct in using bible scripture to pass a social program. A social program may or may not be a good one. If i don't support it, does this mean someone can justly use bible scripture against me when i have an equal amount supporting my belief? That's my only point. Politics and the word don't seem to mix.

Separation of church and state, shall we do away with it then?

No we can't do that. Lets not Spread others wealth around and call it gods will being done, because if i don't think it's Gods will, you accuse me of not doing gods will. A double edge sword.

I agree with much of what you are saying. Not all though. I do not think that wealth is something that should belong to one person but to all. Oh I do not mean that a doctor should earn the same as a street sweeper. The jobs are not equally demanding so the doctor should be compensated. But I do not think that wealth - material wealth - is anything we can claim as "our own". We live only briefly and I don't think hoarding is God's plan for this wealth. Sharing, yes. I do think that is it. And I don't really care about the way. Through a church or through the state. The ends is what I am interested in: The benefit of all. This is only my opinion, and it is a small part of it. So I am not claiming that this is how it IS. I am merely showing my conclusion after travelling much of the world. Seeing the poorest and the richest. Seeing the effects of different political systems and looking at what data I have available as well as the bible. I could be wrong of course. But I do not think I am wholly wrong in my analysis.

I think when two people disagree and the bible seems to support both then it's time to crack out statistics, data analysis and some serious research. When it happens and the involved reach a deadlock it is time to set emotions aside and bring out cold reason. Sometimes people interpret the bible incorrectly, and as I believe reality is God's work I don't think it can contradict Him. Hence I believe that the interpretation of the bible which is the most congruent with reality as a whole is the one most likely to be the most correct one. Not certainly the absolutely correct one however. Just the one closest to whatever true truth exists.