Spreading the wealth is a sin

[godisreal36]

Socialism does not follow the bible. Spreading the wealth is wrong, spread your wealth, not others wealth.

How can you promote taking from others and giving to someone else and then use the bible to back it up? It's stealing and coveting at the same time. If you support helping the poor, shouldn't you do so out of your pocket and not your neighbors pocket?

What about separation of church and state? I thought this was important to liberals? Why do liberals show hypocrisy by only allowing bible Scripture to guide America, only when it serves them? We are all guilty, i judge not. i only speak the truth as i know it. Forget capitalism and socialism when Gods purpose is being attended to. Both sides are guilty, me too.

 

[Johnnz]

Neither socialism nor unfettered capitalism can accurately reflect truly Christian values. But both contain elements of biblical principles, which is one reason why Christians are found on both sides of the political spectrum.

In addition there was nothing like modern states and large corporate organisations in biblical times. We cannot simply reproduce care for the poor in society as taught in the OT. There will be no ideal political system in our fallen world.

John
NZ

 

[godisreal36]

first off, i speak of my country when i speak of politics and capitalism. It's none of my concern what other countries do. This spread the wealth idea that Obama brings forth promises to take from the rich and give to the poor. Did jesus teach us to force the rich to pay? What a mess. Obama bringing the bible into it, deviding the church. What a shame. I say anyone who would let hate come into the church over politics and wealth is not serving the church. Obama serves the world, to say Obama does Jesus work is a stretch at best. Obama's opposition has been greatly misrepresented. Mr Obama Lies allot, that does not come from Jesus. Yet Obama uses bible scripture to spread the wealth and people follow him, repenting is in order. The truth like it or not.

 

[Johnnz]

Isa 1:15-17
5 When you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide my eyes from you;
even if you offer many prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are full of blood;
16 wash and make yourselves clean. Take your evil deeds out of my sight! Stop doing wrong, 17 learn to do right! Seek justice, encourage the oppressed. Defend the cause of the fatherless, plead the case of the widow.

Isa 1:23
Your rulers are rebels, companions of thieves; they all love bribes and chase after gifts. They do not defend the cause of the fatherless; the widow's case does not come before them.

Isa 10:1-2
Woe to those who make unjust laws, to those who issue oppressive decrees, 2 to deprive the poor of their rights and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people,
making widows their prey and robbing the fatherless.

Jer 5:26-29 "Among my people are wicked men who lie in wait like men who snare birds
and like those who set traps to catch men. 27 Like cages full of birds, their houses are full of deceit; they have become rich and powerful 28 and have grown fat and sleek. Their evil deeds have no limit; they do not plead the case of the fatherless to win it, they do not defend the rights of the poor. 29 Should I not punish them for this?" declares the Lord. "Should I not avenge myself on such a nation as this?

Ezek 22:7-12
In you they have treated father and mother with contempt; in you they have oppressed the alien and mistreated the fatherless and the widow. 8 You have despised my holy things and desecrated my Sabbaths. 9 In you are slanderous men bent on shedding blood; in you are those who eat at the mountain shrines and commit lewd acts. 10 In you are those who dishonor their fathers' bed; in you are those who violate women during their period, when they are ceremonially unclean. 11 In you one man commits a detestable offense with his neighbor's wife, another shamefully defiles his daughter-in-law, and another violates his sister, his own father's daughter. 12 In you men accept bribes to shed blood; you take usury and excessive interest and make unjust gain from your neighbors by extortion. And you have forgotten me, declares the Sovereign Lord.

All addressed to and its leaders Israel collectively as a nation.

Jesus also spoke of a judgement of nations.

Matt 25:31-46

31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40 "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45 "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

John
NZ

 

[godisreal36]

Can't argue with Bible scripture. I feel that those who wish to pass laws providing healthcare have done so in a deceitful manner. If you rob the poor of opertunity by killing jobs, if you give them sub par healthcare is this helping or hurting them? 2000 pages long, it costs twice as much as they say, it was not debated in the open fo us all to see, one lie after another. Hardly backed by scripture. Is it poossible that when we seek to pass a law helping the poor by taking from the rich who are already overburdened and and find it hard to provide good paying jobs, is it possible we hurt the poor and suppresss them instead? If we pat ourself on the back and say we helped the poor, is it poosible that this is what we will point to when we stand in from of him to be judged and he will say depart from me. i nevere knew you? Is it possible by wanting to leave iraq that we turn our back on widdows and orphans or are we the ones who create them?

 

[godisreal36]

The healthcare Bill was not what they claimed it was, why should i support a lie? Not just because it wasn't exactly as promised, but because they claimed it to be one thing when it's not. I will not support this Big Lie and say im helping the poor. But i will support a bill that is transparent as promissed, that costs what they say it will, not twice as much, i will support a Good health care Bill, not this current one however.

Did we create the Iraq widdows and orphans or did Suddam Hussein? America armed Saddam with his awful WMDs and other weapons, isn't it our responsibility to stop him? Should we have ignored Sadams many crimes against humanity for the sake of peace? Is this what the Bible says we should do?

 

[godisreal36]

Possibly both democrats and republicans think they do right according to God with their beleifs in this Spreading of the wealth, possibly both sides are right. Possibly both sides are right and wrong, possibly we serve god and our own polituical beleifs at the same time, thereby sinning against God? All i know is this...Obama doesn't look like a Christian, he looks more like a wolf in sheep's clothing. I try 2 follow jesus. If my republican conservative ideas betray god, i should cast them down. We can only serve one master. Jesus or Obama? Jesus or Bush? Jesus or the world? We are all guilty and should reconsider our political beleifs and allow only Jesus.

One more thing, Obama's church that he and his children attended for many years, this church has been exposed as a church of satin in my oppinion, maybe im wrong, please correct me, i wish not to sit in judgment falsely. Obama's church preaching things like: God bless america? No, no, i say God damn America! Is that love? Is that becoming of a Preacher?

 

[Notamonkey]

People who lift the government up as a god do so to aleviate their own lack of charity to the poor. They think by paying taxes to the all mighty government means "I gave at the office". These are the people who hoard their money yet claim to "care" for the poor so much. This is clasic liberalism.

 

[godisreal36]

People who lift the government up as a god do so to aleviate their own lack of charity to the poor. They think by paying taxes to the all mighty government means "I gave at the office". These are the people who hoard their money yet claim to "care" for the poor so much. This is clasic liberalism.

Praise Jesus Amen

 

[Notamonkey]

Neither socialism nor unfettered capitalism can accurately reflect truly Christian values. But both contain elements of biblical principles, which is one reason why Christians are found on both sides of the political spectrum.

In addition there was nothing like modern states and large corporate organisations in biblical times. We cannot simply reproduce care for the poor in society as taught in the OT. There will be no ideal political system in our fallen world.

John
NZ

We never had "unfettered capitolism". Capitolism isn't perfect, but it is the best system.

" We were not idle when we were with you, nor did we eat anyone's food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you. We did this, not because we do not have a right to such help, but in order to make ourselves a model for you to follow. For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: " If a man will not work, he shall not eat.""
2 Thessalonians 2:7-9 NIV

 

[godisreal36]

True words brother. Unfortunatly the liberals will most likely not give up their foolish socialist economic ideas, after all they must save the poor for jesus. We will have to forsake our freedom and capitalism and the many benifits it provides for the poor, we'll have to abandon truth brother and embrace the new world order eventually if i understand end time events correctly. In the name of church unity, we will have to be the ones watching, politics will make us stumble if we aren't careful. Antichrist must come, the liberals only make it happen sooner. Praise jesus, all i can say.

 

[TheReasoner]

True words brother. Unfortunatly the liberals will most likely not give up their foolish socialist economic ideas, after all they must save the poor for jesus. We will have to forsake our freedom and capitalism and the many benifits it provides for the poor, we'll have to abandon truth brother and embrace the new world order eventually if i understand end time events correctly. In the name of church unity, we will have to be the ones watching, politics will make us stumble if we aren't careful. Antichrist must come, the liberals only make it happen sooner. Praise jesus, all i can say.

Well, the "foolish" ideas do work. It is why Scandinavia is such a great place to live. That and core Christian ideals knitted together.
And if you read acts it becomes clear that the first Christians were communists.

How is sharing wrong? How are our material possessions of any worth lest they are used to help those in need? I don't understand why some American Christians claim that material possessions have any spiritual value. Surely as Jesus said we should pay taxes, and praise the Lord if the money we pay is used to aid those who need it?

What does our material wealth amount to if it cannot be used for good? What good is a system which does not lift up the weak, but rather encourages greed and selfishness - both grievous (and related) sins.

Brothers, I know you seek Jesus, but why do you embrace social darwinism so eagerly? How can you equate allowing and indeed enabling those who so desire to abuse the poor with Christianity? I may be wrong in my assertions, I am but a human being, but I fail to see how capitalistic social darwinism is unifiable with a Christ-seeking life.

 

[Hans Talhoffer]

God is a just God. Therefore, people who are poor deserve to be so. Being poor is de facto proof that the people involved have displeased God in some way. The evidence clearly bares this out; thats why poor people are far more likely to be prisoners, in "blended" families, drug users or have children out of wedlock and teenage pregnancies. The statistics make it plain to see. The worst sinners are poor people, therefore, being poor is a consequence of sin.

 

[TheReasoner]

God is a just God. Therefore, people who are poor deserve to be so. Being poor is de facto proof that the people involved have displeased God in some way. The evidence clearly bares this out; thats why poor people are far more likely to be prisoners, in "blended" families, drug users or have children out of wedlock and teenage pregnancies. The statistics make it plain to see. The worst sinners are poor people, therefore, being poor is a consequence of sin.

Huh? Well, the bible begs to differ Hans!

Deut. 15:7. If there is a poor man among you, one of your brothers, in any of the towns of the land which the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart, nor close your hand to your poor brother; but you shall freely open your hand to him, and generously lend him sufficient for his need in whatever he lacks.
Deut. 26:12. When you have finished paying the complete tithe of your increase in the third year, the year of tithing, then you shall give it to the Levite, to the stranger, to the orphan and the widow, that they may eat in your towns, and be satisfied.

Lev. 19:19ff. Now when you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap to the very corners of your field, neither shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest. Nor shall you glean your vineyard, nor shall you gather the fallen fruit of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the needy and for the stranger. I am the LORD your God.

Prov. 31:8ff. [Commandment to kings.] Open your mouth for the dumb, for the rights of all the unfortunate. Open your mouth, judge righteously, and defend the rights of the afflicted and needy.

Is. 58:66ff. Is this not the fast which I choose, to loosen the bonds of wickedness, to undo the bands of the yoke, and to let the oppressed go free, and break every yoke? Is it not to divide your bread with the hungry, and bring the homeless poor into the house; when you see the naked, to cover him, and not to hide yourself from your own flesh?

Jer. 22:3. Do justice and righteousness, and deliver the one who has been robbed from the power of his oppressor. Also do not mistreat or do violence to the stranger, the orphan, or the widow; and do not shed innocent blood in this place.

Luke 12:33. "Sell your possessions and give to charity; make yourselves purses which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near, nor moth destroys."

Luke 3:11. And [John the Baptist] would answer and say to them, "Let the man with two tunics share with him who has none, and let him who has food do likewise."

Mt. 5:42. Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

Ezek. 16:49ff. "Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food, and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy. Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them when I saw it."

James 5:1-6. Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries which are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments have become moth-eaten. ...Behold, the pay of the laborers who mowed your fields, and with you have withheld, cries out against you; and the outcry of the harvesters has reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth. You have lived luxuriously on the earth and led a life of wanton pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter.

Luke 6:24. "But woe to you who are rich, for you are receiving your comfort in full."

2 Cor. 8:9. For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sake He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich.

Prov. 14:31. He who oppresses the poor reproaches his Maker, but he who is gracious to the needy honors Him.

Mt. 25:31-46. "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on His left.
Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'
Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You drink? And when did we see You a stranger, and invite you in, or naked, and clothe You? And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
And the King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'
Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
Then they themselves will also answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
Then He will answer them, saying, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

There's also the matter of the poor widow who gave in the temple, the widow in Sarepta, the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. Jesus target the ONE time He used violence: Businessmen... Maybe you do feel a need to justify your own wealth and the poverty of others so you can sleep at night, but I tell you: Do not sleep! Injustice is committed in the name of Christ, and the weak are those who suffer.

The bible is clear as crystal on this. Not helping the poor is -literally- a damnable offense. Material wealth is of this world alone. Greed is sinful.

 

[godisreal36]

Christians were communist? Not true brother. They rejected government of man totally, they submited to it under God, but not when that government went against God. First off, we're talking about America, you dont even have an american flag displayed but a foreign one. Maybe you're an american idk for sure, but what would other countries know of capitalism? They don't live under it. You can display all the scripture you want, capitalism is the best system to live in if you are poor and want to work, socialism failed, it doesnt stand proudlly over capitalism, it stands in it's shaddow instead. Without us capitialist, the socialist would be even poorer. Work and achieve, this is what god intended, not sitting around collecting a check while your country goes bankrupt from many failed socialist policies which promotes coveting others possesion and being lazy. I say socialism is a foolish quest, if you save the poor, who would jesus help? who would need God under a socialist utopia, that is if it worked?

 

[godisreal36]

God says to take from your own pocket and give to the poor, it says god loves a cheerful giver, i think it's better not to give at all if you dont want to, god wont honor giving in a selfish manner. If you force others to pay for the poor in such a way as to kill the jobs for the poor, you dont help them do anything except stay poor. This is what the world wants people, kill capitalism and the vast wealth it provides, vast wealth not only for evil but good as well, much money goes to preaching the gospel and helping the poor under capitalism. If you take from the rich too much and give to the poor too much, it will strangle the ability to help them in the future. If you force others to pay as Obama seeks to do, you are not the one taking from your pocket and giving to the poor, you are just lieng to yourself, socialism is just as self serving as capitalism. Take from your own pocket not youneighbors pocket, hating the rich is a sin. im poor btw. give to me if you want to help, i'll gladly take your wealth

 

[TheReasoner]

Christians were communist? Not true brother. They rejected government of man totally, they submited to uit under God, but not when that government went against God. First off, we're talking about America, you dont eveb have an american flag displayed but a forrien one. Maybe you're an american idk for sure, but what would other counbtries know of capitalism? They don't live under it. You can display all the scripture you want, america is the best country to live in if you are poor and want to work, socialism failed, it doesnt stand proudlly over capitalism, it stands in it's shaddow instead. Without us capitialist, the socialist would be even poorer. Work and achieve, this is what god intended, not sitting around collecting a chech while your country goes bankrupt from many faied socialist policies which promotes coveting others possesion and being lazy. I say socialism is a foolish quest, if you save the poor, who would jesus help? who would need God under a socialist utopia, trhat is if it worked?

Hello again. I understand where you come from, but there are a couple of basic and common mistakes you have made here. Not to worry, most people who haven't read up on this make them. First off, communism does not necessarily imply a government. A communistic society is - according to some models - anarchic. That is to say without a ruling government at all. It can be and has been applied to small groups of people successfully. Notable such cases are the first Christians, several monasteries and some other communes. Christian and non-christian. Other, often secular examples were found in Spain during their civil war.

You make a couple of mistakes elsewhere too. The USA is actually not the best country to live in if you are poor. There is much data that can be used to calculate which country is the best for the poor and needy, and the USA falls far down on most of those lists. As far as I know there is no such list where the US is at the top. If you really want I can get you some of those lists. Or you can google them. Check out relevant stats at nationmaster.com or gapminder.org or go straight to the UN or the CIA. You'll find the data points in the same direction. The US is a fairly bad place to live if you are poor. Subjective obserations I have made during my time in and travelling through the US have served as confirmations to this effect.

As for socialism failing, that is also not true. There are several socialistic nations on this planet today where socialism is very successfully applied to a democratic template. The Scandinavian nations are such nations. Here we have solid proof that not only do socialist policies not bankrupt a nation, but they can if applied correctly lift a country out of rather bad poverty and into wealth and prosperity. As a case in point I present Norway which largely due to socialism was lifted out of pretty extreme poverty (the poorest nation in all of western europe at one time) to one of the richest nations in the world. Now topping lists such as the human development index. The same goes for Finland, which worked itself up in wealth and also in educational quality. Finland went from one of the worst countries in western europe to the best in the world - education wise in about 50 years precisely due to socialistic policies.

I say socialism is a noble quest. If we work to save the poor, then perhaps they will see that the Lord our God who called us to do this is a truly loving God. We cannot save them in our own power anyway. One whose followers love one another and those who do not love them back. Capitalism... Well, how can a system which thrives off of sin, and flourishes on greed and selfishness be beneficial to the Lord our God?

I am but a man, and as such I can be wrong. But I do not take a position lightly. Prior to accepting socialistic democracy as a good system I tested it. Alas I am yet to do the math myself, but my hypothesis based on rather strong data suggests that a modicum of socialistic policies which far exceeds the level in the USA is beneficial both to long term economics of a nation and to the cause of the poor, widow and the orphan. I do not see any data from the stable countries in the west to contradict this hypothesis, and I am neglecting data from the third world largely due to the political instability which is equally unfavorable to both capitalist economies and socialist ones.


btw. I am also poor. For now. I am a student, and students even here are by and large not wealthy people.

 

[godisreal36]

Listen brother, your math is based on flawed data, i see how capitalism has worked better than socialism first hand, no fuzzy math will change my mind, it'll take more than that. Please brother, save it for the kids. I speak with simple wisdom, not many words quoting many people who may or may not be lieing. You liberals use the law and words and meanings for words that could be debated forever to win a pointless argument. Reminds me of how pharisees always used such things against Jesus, as i said, Politics is a stumbleing block for christians. Would you abandon your socialism if God asked you to?

 

[TheReasoner]

Listen brother, your math is based on flawed data, i see how capitalism has worked better than socialism first hand, no fuzzy math will change my mind, it'll take more than that. Please brother, save it for the kids. I speak with simple wisdom, not many words quoting many people who may or may not be lieing. You liberals use the law and words and meanings for words that could be debated forever to win a pointless argument. Reminds me of how pharisees always used such things against Jesus, as i said, Politics is a stumbleing block for christians. Would you abandon your socialism if God asked you to?

Yes of course. That is why I rejected capitalism as a teenager after all. But godisreal, you cannot reject large scale empirical data because of a limited set of subjective observations. You cannot say my math is wrong simply because you disagree on a purely philosophical level! I don't know if I am a liberal or not. I serve God in whatever capacity He calls me. At this time that is as an intellectual academic. I would ask you how the data from so many sources, numerous universities, news organizations, intelligence organizations and think tanks can all be consistantly wrong? They all point in the same direction; That socialism does work. And not only that, but the history of Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland and Iceland also all point very very strongly in that direction. This is rather overwhelming evidence godisreal. And I repeat - Obama is not a socialist. He is a close to center right wing politician. But - right wing.
I could also say like you that my first hand experience - from three different continents - mirror the data from other sources. I don't know where you get your data from - but your observations -like mine- can be wrong. Right?

 

[Johnnz]

Terms can be confusing. Capitalism essentially refers to how money is allocated. Other than in older communist societies, now largely extinct, socialist governments use 'capitalist' means, allowing private enterprise to operate freely. Thus socialism and capitalism are not necessarily political opposites. In most western economies it is more a matter accepting that the State has some role is the distribution of wealth against those who see that as purely a matter for each individual. Insofar as the OT prophets railed against those in power making unjust and oppressive laws we have biblical precedent for ruling bodies to be active is upholding the needs of the poor.

John
NZ