Spirit of wisdom and revelation

[Bezaleel]

My question arose after I had read "The believer's authority" of Dad Hagin. So, I suppose WOF forum is the best place to discuss it.

I'd like to share thoughts about prayer for Spirit of wisdom and revelation (Eph 1:16-20). I began to pray this prayer after I had read in "The believer's authority", that this prayer changed life of Dad Hagin.

Apostle Paul prayed, that Christians in Ephesus may receive the Spirit of wisdom and revelation (Eph 1:16). At the moment of this prayer Ephesians were already baptized in the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues (Acts 19,6). After several years (maybe decades) Ephesians received Revelation of John (Rev 2:1-7). I'd like to mention that according to original Greek text, the author of Ephesians prayed for spirit of apocalypse and Ephesians received apocalypse - the message of the leader of the church, apostle John.

Dad Hagin prayed for Spirit of wisdom and revelation in 1947-1948 ("The believer's authority"). In 1950 he met Jesus in vision ("I believe in visions") and the content of this vision (future of the world, church ministry), symbols (rider,scroll and etc.) was similar to Revelation of John.

Can we consider the final result or proof(like tongues in the case of the baptizm in the Holy Spirit) of the prayers for Spirit of wisdom and revelation as following: the result of these prayers is that the leader of the church will receive vision similar to the Revelation of John (purpose, content, symbols and etc.) for the Church?

 

[KingZzub]

Not necessarily.

Revelation generally comes in the form of insight about the Word, often from the inner witness or from the understanding of the preached Word.

You must be careful about seeking open visions and experiences, I am not against them, but they are not to be sought as we are to live by faith, not sight.

Cheers,
|ZZ|

 

[Bezaleel]

Thank you for reply!

I agree with you that Christians must be very careful in finding visions. Dad Hagin also pointed to this in his books.

I'd like to mention that according to "I believe in visions" vision in 1950 was rather spontaneous. We can suppose that apostle John didn't also choose the time for Revelation . It is important not to try to establish the desired time and place for vision. In this case we indeed don't find Jesus, but only miracle - that is error.

However what is the purpose of the prayer for wisdom and revelation in the case of Ephesians? I suppose that they found many revelations in the Bible before this prayer, at least they studied for two years in the Bible school of apostle Paul (Acts 19)-, I suppose the best Bible school forever .

The advantage of the charismatic doctrine about baptizm in the Holy Spirit is that there is the proof of the baptizm (it is really big advantage, I can compare - before this I was in the church which rejected this teaching-.
If there is prayer of apostle Paul for christians who were baptized in the Holy Spirit - there is need for this prayer for such Christians. What is the answer? Christians of all confessions have certain revelations in the Word. If we consider the Revelation of John as the answer to this prayer we have definite proof, definite final result.

 

[KingZzub]

It doesn't matter how many revelations from the Word you have, you can still have more.

Sometimes people (OBVIOUSLY not me ) have to have the same old revelations over again because they forget and back up.

Cheers,
|ZZ|

 

[Bezaleel]

OK

Few words to make my post clear (post is about apocalypse so it is not easy ).

When I write the word revelation in this post I don't mean the word revelation in the frequently used sense, namely, new information from the Bible. Of course christians must find such revelations in the Word, not in visions each day.

In this post I say about revelation which is similar to Revelation of John. I say that, probably, the prayer of apostle Paul was exactly for such kind of message, message with thorough information about the future of the world, Church ministry with symbols of the Revelation of John and etc.

For example, there are many actions of the Holy Spirit, the baptizm of the Holy Spirit is the only one with definite proof - speaking in tongues. In my post I write only about one kind of revelations - revelation similar to the Revelation of John (apocalypse is the definite kind of message with certain rules and etc.) I don't reject any other kind of revelations.

 

[KingZzub]

I knew that...

 

[riverpastor]

So, it's not alright for me to enter into Holy Spirit and see and hear things that cannot be seen or heard in or with the natural senses???

Or, yes, it is???


I believe taht a revelation by vision is different than good, old fashioned, looking into the Spirit type revelation.

I have seen things in the Spirit, but I would not necessarily call them "visions".

I just see them as revelations of what is taking place in the realm in which the Lord has placed me.

I am still tying "vision" to maybe the office of the prophet...

 

[Preacherchick99]

Anyone can recieve a vision. I've had many visions--But I'm no prophet--Well--That's not what the Lord has called me to be. He's called me to the nations--And if being able to prophesy (I know that's not how you spell it but I'm too lazy to look it up, lolz ) is a part of it then high five!

 

[Trish1947]

I don't believe we serve a cookie cutter God, That your vision will be brought forth like my vision. Or your time spend in His presence will be the same time that another will spend in His presence. Or that a revealing will be consistant with another's revealing. I'ts that you know that you know, it's from God, by the Spirits witness, and can't be refuted anywhere in scripture that this is not the way God had chosen for you to receive it. I've been "caught up" about 25 years ago and showed things, and the reality of it has stayed with me the whole 25 years. I can go back and revisit it any time. It's that fresh..Or I've heard my name spoken, and heard Him say "come"..and showed things, dreams, impressions, instant vision while checking out at a grocery store. etc. This is not a boast, it's just how God has chosen to get my attention. I believe every Christian had been given that place in the Spirit to commune. Many don't realize it, but I believe everyone has that place, while we are down here. And you can recognize it.

This might sound really weird to some. But I know that I know. Yes we have scripture to compare, but no where do I see that everyone was delt with in cookie cutter fashion. But all had the witness of the Spirit, that it was from God.

 

[riverpastor]

Absolutely great post, Trish.

He's not "cookie-cutter" and neither are we!

When I began to prophesy and receive words of knowledge, I simply picked up on the pattern through my time with the Father.

Now, when I enter His Presence, I "look" in that direction... if that makes any sense.

When I minister to others, I EXPECT to see a picture and hear a word and that as I speak those things, more follows through a cognizant hearing in my spirit.

This is what I have come to expect. The way God has revealed these type of "visions" or revelations in the past is what I know I can continue to do.


Before I came into this knowledge in the Spirit, I heard a minister years ago at a "Gifts of the Spirit Seminar" say this: "When you go to the Spirit to receive things, you look in the direction of word of knowledge or wisdom. You look in the direction of prophecy or the gifts of healing." The church has lacked the vision to teach congregants how to enter in and receive these things... or at least the realm of "full gospel" or "charismatic" churches that I have been in. This makes it too easy for church to become a "one-man show".

 

[LittleRocketBoy]

We must separate the "supernatural" from the "merely spiritual".

Receiving "revelation knowledge" is a "merely spiritual" function because we all can and do experience this. It requires no spiritual "gifts" as listed in 1 Corin 12.

Receiving visions OTOH is a "supernatural" experiece that requires a gifting of the Holy Spirit i.e. Word of Wisdom or Word of Knowledge to manifest. Not all of us have these gifts.

 

[riverpastor]

Agreed, LRB. I do not portend that I, personally, have any of these gifts necessarily. What I receive often might be labeled as a word of knowledge, but it doesn't fall IMO into what you have distinguished as "supernatural" giftings vs. spiritual knowledge.

However, I have seen these merely spiritual encounters have great effects on others lives. Through it God has provided physical and emotional healing, broken the yoke of bondage, provided confirmation...

I believe that what I minister is simply graces from the Holy Spirit.

Simply stated, I have had only a couple of "visions" as such as you have defined previously.

 

[ewkenyon2]

in regards to brother Hagin, i believe that we need to realize that many of the dealings that the lord had with him, where due to the fact that he stood in the office of a 'prophet'. in this office, we see that their will at times, be divine open eye appearances of the lord Jesus Christ, as he communicates special messages, in line with the written word, to the person in that office, for the benefit of the church. we see this several times in the ministry of the apostle, teacher, pastor, prophet Paul, as the lord Jesus Christ would appear to him, and strengthen, comfort, & instruct him in regards to the church. it was by divine appearance that Paul received the message for the church, the gospel for the new creation, of what occurred behind the scenes at the cross in the realm of the spirit, as jesus became 'sin', man was absorbed into him, the sin nature was dealt with in hell, & man was recreated, in Christ jesus,this was all given to Paul by special, personal, appearance & revelation through the lord of the church, Jesus, the Christ of god. these dealings of the holy spirit, through the lord, are given for that office, now other believers can as the lord wills, have visions of the lord, but they do not have the same occurrences as one who stands in the office of a prophet..

ephesians 1:17-21(living bible)...to give you wisdom to see clearly& really understand who Christ is & all that he has done for you(so we see that paul wants us to understand that Jesus was the anointed one , the Christ, the second adam, the last man, and what he has done, which is to put an end to the line of the first Adam, to put away the sin nature, to start a new line a new race of man , IN HIM, the new creation folk, & has placed man in himself, , now man lives in Christ, & is in the very right presence of god, notes are mine)

vs.18....i pray that your hearts will be flooded with light so that you can see something of the future he has called you to share( here he is asking that we will see that we are new species,, a new creation, that once again we are gods under rulers on this earth, through his son, that we sit in heavenly places with him, & that as we learn to carry out his authority here now, we are beginning to see that we shall rule the universe with him in the future to come, as we are IN CHRIST, there is nothing he can do that does not affect us the body, thus as he governs, it is done through us-notes mine).

vs.19-20-i pray that you will begin to understand how incredibly great his power is to help those who believe him. it is the same mighty power that raised Christ from the dead & seated him him in the place of honor at gods right hand...(here he is asking that we know how great gods power ,it is at our disposal, & that it is the same power that raised Christ from the dead, now hold on to your seat, & shout with great glory, the power that is at our disposal, that raised Christ from the dead, IS THE SPOKEN WORD OF GOD,

hebrews 1:5(way's trnsl.) my son art thou, THIS day have i BEGOTTEN thee.
(twentieth century)...thou art my son;THIS DAY i have become your father
(lamsa)...you are my son THIS DAY have i BEGOTTEN you....(, what day, Jesus had always been the son in fellowship with the father, but at he cross he was made sin, the harmony was broken, he was sin,. our sin, he was now in harmony with the adamic nature, in the bowels of the earth, the spoken word went forth, the new race was birthed in Christ, as he became, the FIRST BORN... notes mine)
psalm 119:107(amplified)..i am sorely afflicted; renew & quicken me (give me life), o lord according to your word...
psalm119:939ampl)i will never forget your precepts,(how can i)for it is by them you have quickened me(granted me life)...

as one reads psalm119, one will see that many places are in reference to Jesus being made sin, with mans sin, & that only the spoken word of god ,to him, can bring spiritual life to him.
in hebrews 1:5- we see god SPEAKING--you are my son, THIS day, have i BEGOTTEN thee, the word begotten here, in the greek means to (regenerate), when did Jesus need to be regenerated, why of course, after he had absorbed our sin nature into himself, he had to have the life of god(zoe) birthed into his spirit.

there is so much more on this i could share, but it is getting hard to function now, the glory of the holy spirit is so overwhelming right now, that i can hardly contain myself, i want to shout, jump, run, knock on all my neighbors doors, & shout He's ALIVE, & IN HIM I am right with god, & I'm BORN ANEW IN HIM.

well, this is just what paul was praying, that we would have this kind of response, this revelation by the holy spirit, that we would understand, who Christ is to the church, who we are in him, how the father brought his son from the dead, & that this power is now ours, WHEW GLORY TO GOD,WHEW, can you See it, this is what he wanted us to KNOW, it will set you free!
well, let me close with the words of this passionate man, that great lover of our lord, the one who so gave his whole heart to his saviour, & master, that hot blooded, compassionate man, the gentle apostle, paul,
romans10:8(the message)..the word that saves is right here,as near as the tongue in your mouth,as close as the heart in your chest.' IT's THE WORD of FAITH (that) welcomes god to go to work & set things right for us.

this is the message, this is the gospel, this is what the father wanted us to know, through this prayer of paul, this is the platform of the new creation folk.

GLORY BE TO GOD

 

[Trish1947]

I guess I'm not too in tune with what every gift is being manifested is called. Or what someone has. Or even what I have. I just go with it. What ever it is, if I have the witness of the Spirit, that He's showing something. I don't know if I have any that remains, after it has been revealed, or used. I just haven't been that concerned if I still "have it" or not.

 

[Bezaleel]

I think, that the great special vision of Dad Hagin in 1950, his next great visions, his books, in which he wrote about these visions have the similar meaning for charismatic christians as Revelation of John for New Testament christians.

My post, mainly, is not about visions, it is about Spirit of wisdom and revelation.

Dad Hagin had another great vision in 1934. This vision was sent for his salvation, mainly. My post is not about this vision. My post is about special vision as the answer to the prayer for Spirit of wisdom and revelation.

Let us consider christians in Ephesus: they speak in tongues, they phrophesy and etc. Look in Acts 19! Great charismatic church! The spiritual age of many charismatic christians appropriate to the age of the christians in Ephesus. OK, I was baptized in the Holy Spirit, I am speaking tongues, gifts of the Holy Spirit accompany me for years. I am in Ephesus at the moment. Now I am waiting for the letter of my apostle Paul. He will say to me what is the main prayer for me in his letter. And I receive the letter to Ephesians with the prayer for Spirit of wisdom and revelation. Yes, I have many other needs for prayer and I pray. But I trust apostle Paul even if it is difficult to understand for me, why this prayer is so important for me, I consider this prayer as one of the most important prayers. I suppose that many christians in Asia (Acts 19,10 - Ephesus can be considered as synonym of Asia, besides, Letter to Ephesians was, probably, circular letter to Asia - NIV Study Bible) began to pray for the Spirit of wisdom and revelation. And they recieved Revelation of John. It was the special message for charismatic christians. It revealed the problems of the charismatic churches in Asia, it revealed the future and etc.

Cookie cutter is really great comparison. Sometimes I say to christians who reject the tongues - you must be baptized in the Holy Spirit with the proof of the speaking in tongues. They say - it is cookie cutter, you can't limit the Holy Spirit. We must preach gospel first of all and then to think about miracles and etc.

I'd like to mention that the same Revelaton was sent to seven different churches in Asia,with different problems, different achievements, like tongues appeared during baptizm in the Holy Spirit in different passages of Acts.

Maybe the prayer for wisdom and revelation is the eternal key for charisimatic christians to open door?

 

[riverpastor]

As to your original question: I would say "yes". But, I also believe that all may be recipients of the fruit of this prayer, not just the leadership.

 

[ewkenyon2]

I think, that the great special vision of Dad Hagin in 1950, his next great visions, his books, in which he wrote about these visions have the similar meaning for charismatic christians as Revelation of John for New Testament christians.

My post, mainly, is not about visions, it is about Spirit of wisdom and revelation.

Dad Hagin had another great vision in 1934. This vision was sent for his salvation, mainly. My post is not about this vision. My post is about special vision as the answer to the prayer for Spirit of wisdom and revelation.

Let us consider christians in Ephesus: they speak in tongues, they phrophesy and etc. Look in Acts 19! Great charismatic church! The spiritual age of many charismatic christians appropriate to the age of the christians in Ephesus. OK, I was baptized in the Holy Spirit, I am speaking tongues, gifts of the Holy Spirit accompany me for years. I am in Ephesus at the moment. Now I am waiting for the letter of my apostle Paul. He will say to me what is the main prayer for me in his letter. And I receive the letter to Ephesians with the prayer for Spirit of wisdom and revelation. Yes, I have many other needs for prayer and I pray. But I trust apostle Paul even if it is difficult to understand for me, why this prayer is so important for me, I consider this prayer as one of the most important prayers. I suppose that many christians in Asia (Acts 19,10 - Ephesus can be considered as synonym of Asia, besides, Letter to Ephesians was, probably, circular letter to Asia - NIV Study Bible) began to pray for the Spirit of wisdom and revelation. And they recieved Revelation of John. It was the special message for charismatic christians. It revealed the problems of the charismatic churches in Asia, it revealed the future and etc.

Cookie cutter is really great comparison. Sometimes I say to christians who reject the tongues - you must be baptized in the Holy Spirit with the proof of the speaking in tongues. They say - it is cookie cutter, you can't limit the Holy Spirit. We must preach gospel first of all and then to think about miracles and etc.

I'd like to mention that the same Revelaton was sent to seven different churches in Asia,with different problems, different achievements, like tongues appeared during baptizm in the Holy Spirit in different passages of Acts.

Maybe the prayer for wisdom and revelation is the eternal key for charisimatic christians to open door?

brother, please read my previous post on this matter, this prayer has nothing what so ever to do with the gifts of the spirit, that function through believers for the church's edification, this is dealt with by paul in the letter to the church at corinth.

this is why the church is still so fsr behind where we should be ,we still fail to take our place IN CHRIST, that is what the apostle is teaching here, that we receive, revelation knowledge through the holy spirit, these things cannot be figured out in the human mind, we must receive the spirit of wisdom & revelation by the holy spirit in these things, again i state, this has nothing to do with the gifts of the holy spirit

 

[LittleRocketBoy]

brother, please read my previous post on this matter, this prayer has nothing what so ever to do with the gifts of the spirit, that function through believers for the church's edification, this is dealt with by paul in the letter to the church at corinth.

this is why the church is still so fsr behind where we should be ,we still fail to take our place IN CHRIST, that is what the apostle is teaching here, that we receive, revelation knowledge through the holy spirit, these things cannot be figured out in the human mind, we must receive the spirit of wisdom & revelation by the holy spirit in these things, again i state, this has nothing to do with the gifts of the holy spirit

I have been pushing this idea for some time here at CF. There is a difference between the Holy Spirit and His gifts and the spirit of Christ that is in us. The spirit of Christ that is in us is the object of the Holy Spirit's work here in our lives. The Holy Spirit is not the end. It is the means to the end. The end goal is for us to be made over into the image of Christ:spirit, soul and body. We are to grow up into Him by the word and by putting on the new man which is created in the image of Him. He does not want us walking around like little Holy Spirit possessed robots. He wants us to grow in faith, wisdom, and spirit.

I can always tell someone who has read Kenyon... they know this!

 

[Trish1947]

I have been pushing this idea for some time here at CF. There is a difference between the Holy Spirit and His gifts and the spirit of Christ that is in us. The spirit of Christ that is in us is the object of the Holy Spirit's work here in our lives. The Holy Spirit is not the end. It is the means to the end. The end goal is for us to be made over into the image of Christ:spirit, soul and body. We are to grow up into Him by the word and by putting on the new man which is created in the image of Him. He does not want us walking around like little Holy Spirit possessed robots. He wants us to grow in faith, wisdom, and spirit.

I can always tell someone who has read Kenyon... they know this!

Is this called being made spiritually, soulicly, and bodily natural?

 

[ewkenyon2]

I have been pushing this idea for some time here at CF. There is a difference between the Holy Spirit and His gifts and the spirit of Christ that is in us. The spirit of Christ that is in us is the object of the Holy Spirit's work here in our lives. The Holy Spirit is not the end. It is the means to the end. The end goal is for us to be made over into the image of Christ:spirit, soul and body. We are to grow up into Him by the word and by putting on the new man which is created in the image of Him. He does not want us walking around like little Holy Spirit possessed robots. He wants us to grow in faith, wisdom, and spirit.

I can always tell someone who has read Kenyon... they know this!

oh man, you got it l.r.b., inside i let out a shout, you are right on in your statement. what we must do is to lay down everything, & really focous on the the first & foremost vital truth of the new covenant, WE ARE IN CHRIST. we still have not grown in this matter, the fact that we focous on outward aspects of the holy spirit, show that we are still sense orienated, & not walking in the spirit, which is walking in THE WORD, & as you study the epistles, you will see the constant theme is thst WE ARE IN CHRIST, out from this truth flow all other things, that is why the word of faith is so under attack, is that we grab hold of our identifacation in christ, & work out from that.
paul dealt with issues of the charismata-the operations of the holy spirit in the church, but this was to bring to order things that where not operating in divine function, but then agian, he gets right back on to WE ARE IN CHRIST, we have not even begun to scratch the depths of this, the strength of ones spiritual maturity is not the outward working of spiritual gifts, for we see in the old covenant a donkey was moved on & he spoke under the utterance of the holy spirit, but constantly, paul talked of a spiritual maturity that was seen in ones words conerning our redemption in christ, & the power of that knowldge, which can only come through the spirit of wisdom & knowledge throughn the holy spirit,

OH GLORY, im fixin to shout, you got me worked up l.r.b. this agian, is not burdensome for me to repeat, as paul was known to say, we have to know who we are IN CHRIST, it took the lord jesus christ, appearing to paul, & personally tyeaching him this message for three years, then it was lost, fought agianst, but that foul evil one, the slanderer himself, & which revelation was restored to the church through that kind, gentle man, brother, e.w. kenyon, & that is why he is so slanderd & attacked,

just as paul was from religious folk, this is the gospel form the church, WHO WE ARE IN CHRIST, & in this truth only, do we understand our freedom in christ, & our victory in life, well let me stop or i shall get to going agian, but you got it l.r. b.