speeding up the 2nd coming

[JohnMarsten]

Hello Everyone

I was an adventist for a couple of year (after baptism), before that I attended the church because my mother is an adventist. RIght now I am no longer really involved with the church anymore, I visit from time to time though, sometimes I discuss a few issues with her and thought I might join this forum and see what other people have to say about it...

One of the things that are bothering me is the idea that we can speed up the 2nd coming of Christ.

During one of the sermons a young preacher asked (IMHO the out of place) question what have you done/accomplished this week in order to speed things up?

As far as I know does this believe stem from Ellen White who apparently had a vision regarding the 2nd coming and was told that Christ would have returned already if the CHurch had taken its job seriously and completed the labor of ministering the Truth to all people.

Now that first thing that come to mind is a certain logic since the vision occured somewhere in the 18hundreds I guess it was pretty hard for the adventists to accomplish the matter since transportation, media etc were not as developed as it is today.

The second idea is the fact that the bible tells us that the names of the saved ones are written in the book of life before the creation of the world, now what does that mean? did God write down all the names before the creation of the world into that book. Did he then gave the task to the adventist and then again a changed plans after it turned out that they didnt live up to the task, with all additional wars, holocausts etc. to accompany their underachievement??

IMHO this is a serious issue...

What are your opinions?

 

[SharonL]

We are living under God's Grace - no amount of work will get you into Heaven alone - God's timing is the only timing there is and not even Jesus knows that timing. God is all knowing, so he has no need to change His timing.

The Book of Life is kept in Heaven - man's record keeping has no place in God's planning.

 

[JohnMarsten]

We are living under God's Grace - no amount of work will get you into Heaven alone - God's timing is the only timing there is and not even Jesus knows that timing. God is all knowing, so he has no need to change His timing.

The Book of Life is kept in Heaven - man's record keeping has no place in God's planning.

yeah, thats what I believe as well, why then do adventists believe that it is due to their work (of gaining souls) that Jesus will return...

 

[Princessdi]

Well, this is one of those catch phrases. We say them so often that we have long lost or grown desensitived to their true meaning. It really does look as if we are doubled minded saying, on one hand claiming that God knows all, had the plan of salvation before man sinned, then on the other that we need to "hasten the work" so Jesus can come. God plan is His plan and, as already stated, He doesn't need to change it.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

All we need to understand about the mind of God has been revealed in the scriptures... 1 Cor 10:11 tells us that. The time we are in now is the same as the Israelites were in after crossing the Red Sea. We are on our way to the promised land, after having the sacredness of the Commandments brought before us.

God did not plan or want for the Israelites to wander for 40 years before seeing the promised land... if they had of lived up to the light and grace they were given and would have willingly and gladly obeyed God, they would have marched straight over the Jordan. So it was for us after 1844.... we were re-shown the importance of obeying all the Commandments and were to grow into a people that fully reflected the image of God. Unfortunately, we, like the Israelites, began to murmur and complain instead of banding together and completing the work God had for us and have been wandering in the spiritual wilderness ever since.

Sister White does say that God's decision to cut time short, to send Christ to redeem us, has been waiting upon His people to reflect His character and proclaiming the message He had for us to proclaim... however, she also says that there will come a time when the cup of God indignation will be full and then, irregardless of whether we have done the work or gained the right character, He will start the events to bring this earths history to a close. It is a sad, sad commentary that we are experienceing the end of days in our generation because, by default, time has run out and not because we have built a character as a people to be able to withstand the coming whirlwind.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

yeah, thats what I believe as well, why then do adventists believe that it is due to their work (of gaining souls) that Jesus will return...

Just to clarify John, it had nothing to do with winning souls and everything about reflecting Christ's character as a people.... if you look at the history of the late 1800's, specifically the 1880's, you will see that there was a proposal before congress to enforce a Sunday Law. Because God's people at the time had a poor understanding of the concept of Christ's righteousness, God gave the message through EJ Waggoner. The people didn't embrace the message, Waggoner and AT Jones testified before congress reminding the house of the unconstitutional act of a civil authority enforcing a religious law and the matter quickly fell by the way side. Why?... because the people hadn't fulfilled their part of the covenant in proclaiming the message to the world through their character so God delayed the proclamation.

 

[JohnMarsten]

Just to clarify John, it had nothing to do with winning souls and everything about reflecting Christ's character as a people.... if you look at the history of the late 1800's, specifically the 1880's, you will see that there was a proposal before congress to enforce a Sunday Law. Because God's people at the time had a poor understanding of the concept of Christ's righteousness, God gave the message through EJ Waggoner. The people didn't embrace the message, Waggoner and AT Jones testified before congress reminding the house of the unconstitutional act of a civil authority enforcing a religious law and the matter quickly fell by the way side. Why?... because the people hadn't fulfilled their part of the covenant in proclaiming the message to the world through their character so God delayed the proclamation.

and thats the one where I disagree...

in the end it is God who has appointed the day of the end, in other words, because a few adventist failed to live up to it, many more war happened, billions of people killed etc...

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

and thats the one where I disagree...

in the end it is God who has appointed the day of the end, in other words, because a few adventist failed to live up to it, many more war happened, billions of people killed etc...

It's your perogative to not agree... either you belive that sister White was inspired or you don't. Can't help you there...

 

[Kira Light]

It's your perogative to not agree... either you belive that sister White was inspired or you don't. Can't help you there...

That's what most of these disagreements come down to.

 

[JohnMarsten]

That's what most of these disagreements come down to.

yeah, thats true.

what I hated most about it, was that there are some fervent followers of her in the church, some strict opposers and some in between. all of this is causing tremendous confusion, especially when those obscure things are mentioned. it seemed to me that if you adressed a key issue people were really struggling, as if they were about to lose their salvation if EGW was wrong. I talked once to an older pastor, who had just retired, about a failed prophecy of hers, he started shaking and I realized how lost he was trying to make something up (which was utterly unconvincing) a younger book evangelist was there to help him and without even diving into the topic as such agreed with him. I realized at that point that certain things are best left alone... and really in the end everyone has to make up their own mind...

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I talked once to an older pastor, who had just retired, about a failed prophecy of hers,

What prophesy was that?

 

[JohnMarsten]

What prophesy was that?

from testimonies

...some of you will be food for worm etc. should be a famous on I guess

 

[Kira Light]

from testimonies

...some of you will be food for worm etc. should be a famous on I guess

I think that food for worms quote fits right in with the rest of this thread in that it is now believed to be a conditional prophecy.

Any prophecy that didn't come true = conditional, and conditions were not met.

Just keep that in mind

 

[docpotter]

It is a set time, that only God himself knows, Jesus says in the Bible that " only the Father knows the time " . I don't think we can " speed this up " , but you should speed up your relationship with God / Jesus very very soon . Look at the signs , its all there . Jesus says " do not be deceived , there will be many false teachers " , and he mentions many earthquakes in various places.

I heard David Jerimiah say recently that there have been more earthquakes in the past few years then at anytime in history . Also , look at the massive floods all over the world , it seems they are happening every few days . Jesus tells us to be ready , and we all should get our " house in order " .. God Bless

 

[JohnMarsten]

I think that food for worms quote fits right in with the rest of this thread in that it is now believed to be a conditional prophecy.

Any prophecy that didn't come true = conditional, and conditions were not met.

Just keep that in mind

true, true...

there would be no other ways out... even if the prophecy as such has no conditions....

The only condition that is in it is: "when Jesus comes", you might come and say that "when" in this scenario means "if", and then there is a condition (I actually heard somebody argue that). But then I could go around and tell this prophecy to pretty much anyone cause there will always be people alive and dead at the 2nd Coming

or take this one from the official whiteestate page

First they agree that this prediction/prophecy exists (kudos for that), then they acknowledge that it failed, or at least hint at the fact that everybody died since then and NONE of that company present at the conference was to actually remain alive at the 2nd coming. And then the question: does that make her a false prophet?

I mean if somebody has the status of a prophet, is telling everyone around that AN ANGEL told him ... and it does not come to pass then I do ask myself the question what kind of angel was that? how true are her other predictions which supposedly are to happen at the 2nd coming (-/+), it is gonna be too late to check if they were true or not...

 

[tall73]

One of the things that are bothering me is the idea that we can speed up the 2nd coming of Christ.

Without getting too much into the Ellen White issue I think the general idea of that which is then expanded on in some circles comes from a specific scripture:

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.
2Pe 3:11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved,what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn!


Some other texts that are referenced with the above at times:

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Act 3:19 Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out,
Act 3:20 that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus,
Act 3:21 whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago.

Some see in these verses that there are conditions to be met before Christ's coming which the church can hasten along.

Since in the same speech as Matthew 24 above Jesus references that only the Father knows the specific day there is still the possibility within this framework that we can perceive our actions as bringing about the necessary conditions, and therefore hastening the appearing of Jesus, which we desire, while at the same time the Father already knows the specific day on which those conditions will be met.

 

[Joe67]

Without getting too much into the Ellen White issue I think the general idea of that which is then expanded on in some circles comes from a specific scripture:

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.
2Pe 3:11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved,what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn!


Some other texts that are referenced with the above at times:

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Act 3:19 Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out,
Act 3:20 that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus,
Act 3:21 whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago.

Some see in these verses that there are conditions to be met before Christ's coming which the church can hasten along.

Since in the same speech as Matthew 24 above Jesus references that only the Father knows the specific day there is still the possibility within this framework that we can perceive our actions as bringing about the necessary conditions, and therefore hastening the appearing of Jesus, which we desire, while at the same time the Father already knows the specific day on which those conditions will be met.

tall73,

Yes, and our heavenly Father is the One who works in us to bring the conditions to be, according as He planned it from the Beginning.

Acts 15:18
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. KJV

Acts 4:27-28
27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. KJV

Eph 2:10
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. KJV

Joe

 

[Princessdi]

Ok so I totaly agree with getting oen's self to acknowledge and participate ina relatoiship with God. That is important, and not just because you don't want to be caught without it. I also see that DCP's explanation is rather common also. However, I still have a problem, because we are relying too heavily upon certain events to occur.... or not. Everyone with an end-time prophecy has different signs that much occur before the 2nd coming and they all get them from the Bible. Are we all still trying to predict the time?

It is a set time, that only God himself knows, Jesus says in the Bible that " only the Father knows the time " . I don't think we can " speed this up " , but you should speed up your relationship with God / Jesus very very soon . Look at the signs , its all there . Jesus says " do not be deceived , there will be many false teachers " , and he mentions many earthquakes in various places.

I heard David Jerimiah say recently that there have been more earthquakes in the past few years then at anytime in history . Also , look at the massive floods all over the world , it seems they are happening every few days . Jesus tells us to be ready , and we all should get our " house in order " .. God Bless

 

[MidnightCry]

I believe that only God knows when the time of the end will begin. I don't think there is any way man can calculate a date. And, of course, the Bible warns against this.

However, I don't believe there is anything man can do to hasten or delay the coming of the Lord. The book of Danial makes it very clear that the date has been set by God. Sin is limited to exist for only a certain amount of time. Once the time has been fulfilled that is allotted for sin to exist, the time of the end will begin.

Daniel 11:35 And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them, and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time.l

Daniel 12:4 "But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."