Speaking In tounges...help...

[novcncy]

~ Any Christian CAN speak in toungues. The DIVERSITIES of toungues has not passed away. It exists now as it did in the book of Acts. Not every Christian will speak in toungues though sadly.

~ Cessationism as a theological system is herasy in that it denys the Word of God. After all, God does not change, Jesus Christ is the same Yesterday, Today, and Forever... Additionally, the gifts are practiced and or referred to in the Old Testament as well as throughout the New Testament and have been a continual part of the Church since the day of Pentecost.
~ I encourage anyone who wants to understand the issue clearly to actually read the ENTIRE book of Acts and the ENTIRE book of I Corinthians without taking words out of context.

Hi Leimeng,

Just a word for temperance here....

Although you may not realize it, the first bullet of yours I quoted has put you in an indefensible position on just about every doctrine. While it is true that God does not change, the economy between God and man clearly changes. For instance, I do not have the same relationship with God that Adam originally held. That does not mean that God changed. Another example is blood sacrafice. I no longer need the high priest to offer a sacrifice to atone for my sins, because God offered His Son as the perfect atonement. Again, God did not change. Fortunately, my method of interacting with God will change one more time, all praise to God, but again, God will not change. This does not make me a heretic, but it does show that I can read the Bible with comprehension.

As for the second bullet I quoted, well....what an excellent idea. I should think that would illuminate the many many differences, and the vast disparity between the biblical usage of toungues, and the modern use of "tongues". I find it startling that people, even within this thread, did not realize that biblical tongues are actually foreign languages.

So although it may be fun to get one's heart racing by hurling accusations such as "heretic", one would do well to recognize the fallibility of one's foundational "logic" before proceeding down that path.

Regards

 

[Leimeng]

~ The blood sacrifice of the old covenent was based on the hope of the blood sacrifice of the new covenent. If there was not a promise of the sacrifice of Christ for the sin of an individual, there would be no hope for having our sins washed away. That the Jews did not recognize the sacrifice of the Messiah when it was taking place indicated the condition of their heart, not the method that God used to get deal with sin. ~ When one actually reads the book of Acts, they find that only ONCE is toungues specifically mentioned as other human languages, and the other times in the book of Acts it is not talked about. Additionally, the word translated 'toungues' is not exclusively used to mean foriegn human languages in greek. (Unless one reads commentaries and dictionaries written by staunch cessationists). It also is used to indicate sounds, groans, utterings, moanings, estatic utterances and other ideas as well. The grammer as well as context cannot honestly be translated to mean just human known languages. ~ On the account from Acts 2, one further finds that the entire group of people was filled with the Holy Spirit at one time and by context and grammer we find that the vast majority if not all of the individuals were speaking in tounges at the same time, and people thought they were drunk because they did not understand what was going on. Sounds like much of the same criticisms leveled today at Full-Gospel folk by the cessationist and anti - gifts crowd. ~ More can be posted later, but I have a few errands to run and things to do. ~ Continue to discuss amongst yourselves... Peace, Leimeng Flatulo Ergo Sum ~~~ (***Insert Personal One Liners Here***)

 

[MatthewPoole]

That's a pretty bold statement. Are you saying that tounges is to make believers out of non-believers or that all who believe in it are non-believers?

If it is the latter, than you're saying it is all a huge conspiracy and everyone that has experienced is faking, making a hoax.

I'm sorry to say it, But I'm afraid that is true. I spent 21 years in that movement... and I know, it's a emotionally Based, Sign seeking version of Christianity. and it's FULL of confusion.

Here's some links for you.
http://www.tbaptist.com/aab/tongues.htm

http://www.tbaptist.com/aab/signswonders.htm

http://baptistbibleman.home.comcast.net/pentecostalism.html

http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/strange1.htm

I'D REALLY take a good hard look at these and pray about getting involved with that group. I left after 21 years and am more free now, than I've ever been.

MP

 

[JPPT1974]

Good for you Matthew
That is good for you!!

 

[novcncy]

~ When one actually reads the book of Acts, they find that only ONCE is toungues specifically mentioned as other human languages, and the other times in the book of Acts it is not talked about. Additionally, the word translated 'toungues' is not exclusively used to mean foriegn human languages in greek. (Unless one reads commentaries and dictionaries written by staunch cessationists). It also is used to indicate sounds, groans, utterings, moanings, estatic utterances and other ideas as well. The grammer as well as context cannot honestly be translated to mean just human known languages.

...and we're off...

As you yourself have stated, the example in Acts 2 does indeed have very specific references which irrefutably prove that these were spoken languages. As you also are quick to point out, the other incidents in Acts don't really have any such distinctive indicators.

So.....what you're saying is, that instead of using what we do know from scripture, to fill in what we don't know, we should feel comfortable with doctrine that is simply made up with no support whatsoever? (aside from some questionable commentary by pentecostal and charismatic "scholarship" which assigns imaginary and ambiguous meanings to clear cut Greek syntax (Written EXTREMELY toungue-in-cheek ))

Nice. Thanks, but I'm not buying. See, I have the Holy Spirit, who teaches me all things, and He teaches me that this whole toungues movement is so much hooey.

The issues have been rather summarily covered already in the thread. I certainly will not be offended if you continue to adhere to the notion that babbling at a level under that of a three month old is a manifestation of divine approval, but neither will I agree with you. The big problem here, as I see it, is when someone starts hurling the "heresy" word around, and then contradicts ther own positions numerous times within their own statements....what about that kind of thinking qualifies one to judge another's positions?

 

[PreacherBoi1527]

I have a couple of things I want to ask now...Me and my friend talked and he took me to 1st Corinthians 12 and showed me where it names all the gifts. He also implyed that if you can't speak in toungues your not filled with the spirit..."how can you prove it?" But then I had to point out that when reading chapter 12 it began with "To one is given" "To another" "To another" "To another" so I see that not everyone gets the same gift. I asked him what if you didn't get the gifts of speaking in toungues...he couldn't answer. Can anyone tell me if that's what these verses mean? And if so, does it mean that your not filled with the spirit if you don't get the gift of speaking in toungues?

Another thing. After talking to my baptist friends I keep hearing that it's not brought by God unless there is an interpreter. Where in the Bible does it say that there has to be someone there to interpert it? They say that this is true cause you see people speak in toungues in front of large crowds without an interpreter and so what's the point of it? if anyone could answer me that i'd appreciate it.

And another thing, my friend brought up being slained in the spirit. That's where the preacher comes up and touches you on the forehead and you fall over. Is this Biblical? If so, then where can it be found?

That's all the questions i have so far...

By the way...i'm 16 now! i turned 16 on the 27th of january...

 

[mesue]

I have a couple of things I want to ask now...Me and my friend talked and he took me to 1st Corinthians 12 and showed me where it names all the gifts. He also implyed that if you can't speak in toungues your not filled with the spirit..."how can you prove it?" But then I had to point out that when reading chapter 12 it began with "To one is given" "To another" "To another" "To another" so I see that not everyone gets the same gift. I asked him what if you didn't get the gifts of speaking in toungues...he couldn't answer. Can anyone tell me if that's what these verses mean? And if so, does it mean that your not filled with the spirit if you don't get the gift of speaking in toungues?

Another thing. After talking to my baptist friends I keep hearing that it's not brought by God unless there is an interpreter. Where in the Bible does it say that there has to be someone there to interpert it? They say that this is true cause you see people speak in toungues in front of large crowds without an interpreter and so what's the point of it? if anyone could answer me that i'd appreciate it.

And another thing, my friend brought up being slained in the spirit. That's where the preacher comes up and touches you on the forehead and you fall over. Is this Biblical? If so, then where can it be found?

That's all the questions i have so far...

By the way...i'm 16 now! i turned 16 on the 27th of january...

The book of 1Corinthians is where Paul speaks of everything wrong with that church. It's a book of pointing out the mistakes they were falling into.

1Corinthians 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

and

1Corinthians 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

show where in the Bible where someone needs to interpret.
Actually, chapter 12 speaks of how they're talking in tongues, and other gifts, and Paul tells them that to prophesy is far better because it edifies and brings the lost to the Lord. Then at the end of chapter 12 he says he has a more excellent way and goes on to speak of charity in chapter 13, this is the more excellent way. Then he continues the conversation on spiritual gifts in chapter 14. He clarifies why to prophesy is far better than speaking in tongues and really explains the true purpose of speaking in tongues.
It makes for a good read that should only take 15 minutes to read all 3 chapters.

 

[Athanasian Creed]

I have a couple of things I want to ask now...Me and my friend talked and he took me to 1st Corinthians 12 and showed me where it names all the gifts. He also implyed that if you can't speak in toungues your not filled with the spirit..."how can you prove it?" But then I had to point out that when reading chapter 12 it began with "To one is given" "To another" "To another" "To another" so I see that not everyone gets the same gift. I asked him what if you didn't get the gifts of speaking in toungues...he couldn't answer. Can anyone tell me if that's what these verses mean? And if so, does it mean that your not filled with the spirit if you don't get the gift of speaking in toungues?

You did well to point out to him that Scripture says that God the Holy Spirit gives gifts unto His Church as He wills -

1 Corinthians 12:30-31 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Another thing. After talking to my baptist friends I keep hearing that it's not brought by God unless there is an interpreter. Where in the Bible does it say that there has to be someone there to interpert it? They say that this is true cause you see people speak in toungues in front of large crowds without an interpreter and so what's the point of it? if anyone could answer me that i'd appreciate it.

There is the 1) gift of tongues and 2) the interpretation of tongues 3)prophecy -

1 Corinthians 14:2-5 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Pentecostals/charismatics believe that one can sing in the Spirit (in tongues), pray in the Spirit (in tongues) Both are, as Paul says, unto God since neither the person uttering or those around him understand what is being said. However, the person can pray for interpretation so that the whole Church can be edified.

Interpretation of tongues is a supernatural verbalization and subsequent interpretation to reveal the meaning of a diverse tongue. This gift operates out of the mind of the Spirit rather than out of the mind of man.
"Interpretation" of tongues is not the same thing as "translation" of tongues, for the interpreter never understands the tongue he or she is interpreting. For example, the message in tongues may be long and the interpretation short because the interpretation only gives the meaning. On the other hand, one may speak a short time in tongues and then given a lengthy interpretation. Yet still, at other times, the interpretation is almost word for word.

Prophecy is divinely inspired and anointed utterance; a supernatural proclamation in a known language. It is the manifestation of the Spirit of God - not of intellect (I Corinthians 12:7), and it may be possessed and operated by all who have the infilling of the Holy Spirit (I Corinthians 14:31)
Intellect, faith, and will are operative in this gift, but its exercise is not intellectually based. It is calling forth words from the Spirit of God. Another thing to keep in mind is prophecy should not be equated with the "interpretation" of tongues.

And another thing, my friend brought up being slained in the spirit. That's where the preacher comes up and touches you on the forehead and you fall over. Is this Biblical? If so, then where can it be found?

Actually, there is no precedence in the Word of God for being "slain in the Spirit". We don’t need to be slain “in the Spirit”, but cut “by the Spirit,” the Word (John 6:63; Hebrews 4:12). One way is by expositional preaching the other is offered by experience. One comes by the Word that is objective, that teaches and convicts through the Holy Spirit, the other is subjective, by a person touching you or imparting a power. The Word is Biblical, the other is not.

There are instances in the OT where saints fell to the ground - Genesis 17:3 Abraham falls on his face, but this does not describe an involuntary act of being slain in the Spirit as some claim. Abraham fell face forward toward the ground on his own accord, in reverence, in an act of fully conscious worship.
Many fell backwards in Scripture, but it was not a blessing! In 1 Samuel 4:18: Eli fell off his seat backwards on hearing of the death of his sons and the capture of the Ark and he died. Isaiah 28:13 the prophet speaks of God’s Word sent to refresh, but if not heard it became a judgment “that they may go and stumble backward, and be broken.” In all these examples it is a judgment, not a blessing! In 1 Samuel 28:20 we read of Saul immediately collapsing “full length” on the ground upon hearing of his impending death from Samuel after consulting the witch of Endor.
2 Chronicles 5, describes God’s glory filling the newly completed Temple. It says, “The priests could not continue ministering ... for the glory of the Lord filled the house of God” (v.14). This cannot be made into a normative occurrence for today’s Church, as many have tried to do.


Those who promote the “slain in the Spirit” phenomenon cite Saul’s encounter with the appearance of the Lord on the road to Damascus in Acts 9:3-4 for Biblical support. Saul was an unbeliever on his way to his next extermination. He was knocked to the ground by a light (the Sheckinah glory) and he had a revelation of Christ. When Saul fell, no one touched him and no one was there to catch him. The Scripture doesn’t actually say how he fell, but the Greek language seems to indicate he went to the ground on his own volition. When the soldiers came to arrest Jesus, in John 18:4-6 He reveals His power in a unique way. He identified himself to the soldiers who were arresting him and they “drew back and fell to the ground.” Jesus first revealed Himself by saying His divine name, “I Am,” making it clear who it is they came for. When He identified Himself to them, they fell to the ground in judgment. These pagan sinners did fall -- backwards. They did not experience revelation or receive an anointing, or conversion, they got right back up and arrested Jesus. There was no change in them; they were still enemies of Jesus.


Those who are in rebellion to God seem to fall backward in Scripture. This just may be a sign today, not as a blessing but to show that these people are not submitting to His Word; so it is a sign of judgment. The idea that God is doing a “new thing” is without any biblical precedent. Their attempt to justify and defend this practice is by going to texts from the Old Testament. and yanking them out of their context and background. Trying to use the few incidents in Acts one cannot make them normative for the Church (believers) today.

some of the above information gleaned from:
http://www.christcenteredmall.com/teachings/gifts/interpretation-of-tongues.htm

http://www.letusreason.org/Pent14 .htm



Hope that helps some!




Ray

 

[mesue]

...By the way...i'm 16 now! i turned 16 on the 27th of january...

 

[JPPT1974]

Yeah Happy Birthday my friend
Have a great birthday
Enjoy being sixteen as you are only sixteen once!

 

[PreacherBoi1527]

Okay...i don't know if any of you see this as speaking in tongues...but let me just bring it up. My pastor and his wife went to Mexico before i started going to that church. They went on a prayer walk and talked to some people. The pastor's wife only knew minimal Spanish. The translator had to leave them for a bit and they were stuck struggling to speak with a person. My pastor began to pray and all of a sudden his wife started to just speak the spanish language as if she's known it forever, and she understood the things that other people were saying. I wasn't there so i can't say that this is completely true...but i'm taking his word for it.

I struggle in french class. I got sick one day and i had to stay home from school. I dreamed about Haiti, cause i went there in 8th grade and fell in love with Haiti. Haiti speaks creole which is like crude french. Kinda like the difference in British English and American English. I found my self awakened and then all of a sudden i started just speaking in french fluently. I said my entire sermon in french. I had preached a sermon in Haiti when i was in 8th grade (first sermon i've ever done) and it was in english. I know it was my sermon cause A) I had just dreamed about Haiti and B) The last thing i said in french was "All you have to do is Believe." and that is how i ended my sermon.

I read in Corinthians that Paul said that he spoke in tongues (plural) more than any of them. But when he refered to them speaking in a foreign language he said speaking in a tongue (singular). He would switch between plural and singular often in chapter 14. So I looked at a map that showed Paul's travel and it showed that he travel all over the place. Maybe when he refers the tongues he's speaking in, maybe that's just languages he has aquired while on his journey. Makes sense. If someone came up and started speaking to me in Japanese i wouldn't under stand them. If they were preaching to me...like it says...i wouldn't be edefied...but if they spoke in english i would understand them and probably get something out of it. Possibly the whole thing is talking about being gifted with being able to speak in many languages. I know people who speak both english and spanish, english and chinese, english and french, english and german, and they use their ability to do so to minister in other countries. Not only that but there are people who translate at conferences into sign language and spanish. Maybe there is another angle to look at? Not saying that's what i believe...nor am i saying that's what you should believe...just opening up another route that this whole "mystery" is suppose to go down. Any comments?

 

[A Brother In Christ]

I have a couple of things I want to ask now...Me and my friend talked and he took me to 1st Corinthians 12 and showed me where it names all the gifts. He also implyed that if you can't speak in toungues your not filled with the spirit..."how can you prove it?" But then I had to point out that when reading chapter 12 it began with "To one is given" "To another" "To another" "To another" so I see that not everyone gets the same gift. I asked him what if you didn't get the gifts of speaking in toungues...he couldn't answer.

funny

Can anyone tell me if that's what these verses mean?

1 peter 4:10 As every man hath recieved a grace gift [singular gift only] , even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.

reason for this gift is to use it toward the believers Gal 6:10 thus when the body of believers are operating with their gifts the body is health thus they are guarding the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.. eph 4:3

1 peter 4:11 If any man speak[speaking gift], let him speak as the small words of God; if any man serves[serving gift], let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praised and dominion for ever and ever.

And if so, does it mean that your not filled with the spirit if you don't get the gift of speaking in toungues?

1 cor 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts ...

another gets ...
another gets ...

Another thing. After talking to my baptist friends I keep hearing that it's not brought by God unless there is an interpreter. Where in the Bible does it say that there has to be someone there to interpert it? They say that this is true cause you see people speak in toungues in front of large crowds without an interpreter and so what's the point of it? if anyone could answer me that i'd appreciate it.

And another thing, my friend brought up being slained in the spirit. That's where the preacher comes up and touches you on the forehead and you fall over. Is this Biblical? If so, then where can it be found?

That's all the questions i have so far...

By the way...i'm 16 now! i turned 16 on the 27th of january...

flesh is weak ....
eph 5:20 witchcraft -- superstitous awe of religious activity

2 cor 5:7 For we walk by faith[heb11:1], not by sight..

Do we get to see are savior... nope...

 

[Cright]

The bible tells us that all gifts should be used for his glory. It all tells us that the gift of tongues is to help the unbelievers believe, this gift is not for believers to help other believers. The third thing is that there needs to be a translator.. A person who can understand the one speaking in tongues otherwise there is no purpose.

From those conclusions I'd have to say that people speaking tongues in a church around all believers are either A) misusing their gifts for their own glory or B) Don't have the gift. Either way it's sinful.

I've heard many stories from believers in foreign countries and they've had (by some miracle of God) an amazing ability, above their own, to communicate with others. This I believe in.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

I've heard many stories from believers in foreign countries and they've had (by some miracle of God) an amazing ability, above their own, to communicate with others. This I believe in.

so how do you deal with 2 cor 5:7...

key word is faith... hebrew 11:1 decribes it something that is not seen

or do you ignore it..

 

[JPPT1974]

We should use God's gifts for His good
And His purpose for others
Especially those that are unsaved
That they will be saved in Christ.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

We should use God's gifts for His good
And His purpose for others
Especially those that are unsaved
That they will be saved in Christ.

evanglism is one gift ..for unbelievers

there are 11 other that are important for believer to grow...

 

[JPPT1974]

Yeah there are many more than that
We should use those gifts
Especially to reach those non-believers!

 

[Cright]

so how do you deal with 2 cor 5:7...

key word is faith... hebrews 11:1 describes it something that is not seen

or do you ignore it..

Why would I need to ignore these (or any verse).
2 cor 5:7
This chapter is talking about the fact that Christians are not citizens of earth, but are mortality will pass away and we will have eternal life. That God has given us the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of this. We live by faith, not sight.

The word faith here is defined as: "Conviction based on the reliability of who or what is believed".

So the "faith" mentioned in this passage is not blind in anyway.. It’s based on the knowledge of where the belief is coming from.

Hebrews 11:1 (NIV) says: "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see".

So faith is 2 things as defined by this passage.

1) Being sure of what we hope for
2) being certain of what we do not see (e.g. being certain that God exists, being certain that heaven exists, and that Hell is real etc.)

Faith is not something that is not seen, it is the knowledge of things not seen.

Hope this provides clarification for you.

Thanks for asking!

Carina

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Why would I need to ignore these (or any verse).
2 cor 5:7
This chapter is talking about the fact that Christians are not citizens of earth, but are mortality will pass away and we will have eternal life. That God has given us the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of this. We live by faith, not sight.

The word faith here is defined as: "Conviction based on the reliability of who or what is believed".

So the "faith" mentioned in this passage is not blind in anyway.. It’s based on the knowledge of where the belief is coming from.

Hebrews 11:1 (NIV) says: "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see".

So faith is 2 things as defined by this passage.

1) Being sure of what we hope for
2) being certain of what we do not see (e.g. being certain that God exists, being certain that heaven exists, and that Hell is real etc.)

Faith is not something that is not seen, it is the knowledge of things not seen.

Hope this provides clarification for you.

Thanks for asking!

Carina

And since one does not live by what they see or witness today
but by Gods words from the bible


in the future it will change... but right now... we do not look for signs...1 cor 1:22, 2 cor 5:7