Speaking In tounges...help...

[Athanasian Creed]

Rural Preacher I am a bit confused with this. I understand this passage to mean “the Holy Spirit works in us in ways we cannot even imagine” Even when we are not aware of it or don’t know how to express it. Assurance...

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Learn hence, 1. That the holiest and best of saints labour oft-times under great infirmities in the work and duty of prayer, not knowing what to pray for, or how to manage that important affair as they ought.
Hence it was that the apostles themselves, being sensible of their own disability in this kind, made their addresses to Christ himself to teach and instruct them how to pray, Lu 11:1.

Learn, 2. That it is the work and office of the Holy Spirit of God to help our infirmities in prayer, or, as the word signifies, to help together with us, to set his shoulder to ours, and lift with us at the same burden: the Spirit of Christ and our own spirit must both do their part in carrying on this work; if ever we expect the Spirit of Christ and our own spirit must both do their part in carrying on this work; if ever we expect the Spirit's assistance, we must exert our own endeavours.

More particularly; the Spirit helps us in prayer, by working in us a deep sense of our spiritual wants, by giving us an insight into the promises, and enabling us to plead them at the throne of grace, by creating and stirring up desires in our souls to have our wants supplied by encouraging and emboldening us to come to God in prayer as to a father, with an humble reverence and child-like confidence.

But though the Holy Spirit be our guide and assistant in this duty, yet not so as to give us occasion to think that the words of prayer are immediately inspired and dictated to us by the Holy Ghost: let us have a care that we mistake not an idle and foolish loquacity, a frothy eloquence and affected language, outward vehemency and boldness of speech, a natural fervency, or an acquired fluency of expression, for the Spirit's help and assistance in prayer.

Implore the Spirit's help, and he will help thy infirmities: he will show thee thy sins, to give thee matter of confession; he will show thee thy wants, to give the matter of petition; he will show thee the mercies and blessings of God, to yield thee matter of thanksgiving; he will show thee the church's miseries and necessities, to furnish thee with matter of intercession.

Thus the Spirit will assist thee, but never expect that he should act without thee.

Learn, 3. What is the proper work and office of the Holy Spirit in prayer: it is to make intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

But how is the Spirit our intercessor? Is not that Christ's office?

Ans. Christ is an intercessor for us, the Holy Spirit is an intercessor in us.

Christ, in respect of his meritorious sufferings, is an advocate, mediator, and intercessor with the Father for us.

The Holy Spirit intercedes in us, by enabling us for, and assisting us in, the duty; by quickening our affections, and enlarging our desires; by setting us a-groaning after the Lord.

Groaning notes the strength and ardency of desire, which through the fervency of it puts the soul to pain, and an holy impatience till it be heard.

Lord, how flat and dead are our hearts sometimes in prayer! How much are our spirits straitened! But, if we want words, let us not want groans; let thy Spirit help us to groan our a prayer, when we want ability to utter it; for silent groans proceeding from thy Spirit shall be heard in thine ears, when the loudest cries shall not be heard without it.

(William Burkitt's Expository Notes)


Ray

 

[qpmomma]

I'm glad you know what she means. I'm still trying to figure it out. It's like talking to the Riddler or something. Just say what you mean and specify. You've got to specify more when you're in a forum like this. No one can see your face or know what people really mean unless you spell it out!!

I do the same thing. I'll talk about something or make a reference to something and just assume that everyone knows what I'm talking about.

 

[mesue]

I'm glad you know what she means. I'm still trying to figure it out. It's like talking to the Riddler or something. Just say what you mean and specify. You've got to specify more when you're in a forum like this. No one can see your face or know what people really mean unless you spell it out!!

I guess the Bible's like that. Because they are not my words speaking in riddles. All I did was quote scripture.

1Corinthians 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

 

[handmaiden97]

I dont think we can limit God, and scripture supports that speaking in tounges is of God.....I know many conservative christians (mennonites) who God surprised with the gift of speaking in tounges.....I know of a young man who went to India the taxi he was in got speerated from the taxi his outreach team leader was in and the young man and two girls with him did not know where to go....they had never prayed/spoke in tounges before but had read it in the bible. The girls in the back seat prayed that God would give the young man in the front seat the words to speak in the hundu mans language. The girls prayed the guy spoke out the words that came to his mind not knowing if they were giberish or real words and the taxi driver took them to the correct hotel.....God is amazing

 

[rural_preacher]

Rural Preacher I am a bit confused with this. I understand this passage to mean “the Holy Spirit works in us in ways we cannot even imagine” Even when we are not aware of it or don’t know how to express it. Assurance.

I never before compared this passage to the thought of tongues. Could you help with a bit of explanation here? My experience with knowing someone whom experiences this is another Baptist (gentle sweet Christian) woman whom confessed this to me one day. I found it shocking and strange (truly it freaks me out the idea of someone blabbering next to me – it makes no sense to me) I have always felt that “tongues” meant languages of other cultures, else we would be able to "understand" it all. But she claims to have this happen sometimes in prayer, in private. She said she would never do this in public. So based on this verse is it saying that this is wrong? Or is this supporting that we should never underestimate the power of the Spirit? I am having a difficult time tying this in. Thanks!

After I posted that verse, I figured you would question me. I guess I was just pointing out that sometimes we are unable to articulate what we want to say in prayer, but we have the assurance that the Holy Spirit knows our heart and intercedes on our behalf. So, if someone feels the need to "babble" quietly because they can't articulate their thoughts, God still understands. It's not the same as the "gift of tongues" - which I believe is the supernatural enabling to speak in other languages (Acts chapters 2, 10, 19).

Remember when Hannah prayed in the Temple? Her lips were moving but she made no sound and Eli thought she was drunk. Well, for some maybe in the intensity of private prayer, they make sounds that are not actual words, but are simply an expression of worship. But the thoughts and intents of their heart are understood by the Holy Spirit who intercedes for them.

Just some thoughts to consider...


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[Stinker]

I have a friend who totally believes in speaking in tounges...i however have been raised baptist since i was little and all i've ever learned about the subject that it no longer exsist. I don't know why it doesn't exsist anymore though...i would just say "okay, it doesn't exsist." and not ask questions. Now i want to know where are verses or passages that say that speaking in tounges no longer exsists. Thanks!

-Preacher Boy

In order for someone to speak in tongues someone else who already has the gift (power) of the Holy Spirit has to lay hands on them.

I have not heard nor seen (as of yet) such an event. Someone would have to confirm that the person who just received the gift of the Holy Spirit actually was totally ignorant of the language that they now instantly can speak fluently.

 

[Leimeng]

~ Any Christian CAN speak in toungues. The DIVERSITIES of toungues has not passed away. It exists now as it did in the book of Acts. Not every Christian will speak in toungues though sadly.
~ The idea that people cannot speak in toungues based on their presumed asking and not having is theology based on experiance. We must NOT base our theology on our experiances but on the Word of God. (Which will confirm our experiances.)
~ Cessationism as a theological system is herasy in that it denys the Word of God. After all, God does not change, Jesus Christ is the same Yesterday, Today, and Forever... Additionally, the gifts are practiced and or referred to in the Old Testament as well as throughout the New Testament and have been a continual part of the Church since the day of Pentecost.
~ I encourage anyone who wants to understand the issue clearly to actually read the ENTIRE book of Acts and the ENTIRE book of I Corinthians without taking words out of context.
~ I pray that each of you learn to operate in ALL the gifts of the Holy Spirit to include speaking in toungues.
~ When I am back from shopping perhaps I shall go into a few details for those
curious.
~ Continue to discuss amongst yourselves...

Peace,

Leimeng

Flatulo Ergo Sum ~~~

(***Insert Personal One Liners Here***)

 

[rural_preacher]

Here is an excellent paper written by Lehman Strauss entitled "Speaking in Tongues". It is somewhat lengthy, but well worth the read. Even if you don't agree with him, it is still very educational for anyone struggling with this matter.

http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=393


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[Flynmonkie]

After I posted that verse, I figured you would question me. I<snip>
Just some thoughts to consider...


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Oh, I am always questioning everything, never mind me! I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't being one dimensional about this passage.

Thank you for elaborating for me I feel much the same way (but never had a verse to put it with)

 

[PreacherBoi1527]

Now i'm just indecisive...I have always said that God can do whatever he wants...but i've been bombarded with scripture that defends both sides...however it's all in King James or New King James...I'm only 15...ahhhhh!!!!...could someone atleast post something that i might have a hint of understanding? I really don't know what I think now...me and my friend (we're like best buds) don't pressure eachother about what we believe but we like to ask eachother questions and i just couldn't defend myself against the speaking in tounges portion of the Q & A...and you know what...i still can't...nor could i defend myself in saying i do (which i dont...or do)...i've been praying for understanding (not for talking in tounges...just understanding)...and i'm still confussed...

frustration...

Keep information coming...just make it to where i can understand...lol
-Preacher Boy

 

[rural_preacher]

Now i'm just indecisive...I have always said that God can do whatever he wants...but i've been bombarded with scripture that defends both sides...however it's all in King James or New King James...I'm only 15...ahhhhh!!!!...could someone atleast post something that i might have a hint of understanding? I really don't know what I think now...me and my friend (we're like best buds) don't pressure eachother about what we believe but we like to ask eachother questions and i just couldn't defend myself against the speaking in tounges portion of the Q & A...and you know what...i still can't...nor could i defend myself in saying i do (which i dont...or do)...i've been praying for understanding (not for talking in tounges...just understanding)...and i'm still confussed...

frustration...

Keep information coming...just make it to where i can understand...lol
-Preacher Boy

Preacher Boy,

I've already posted this link, but I'll post it here again. Please take the time to read this article by Lehman Strauss. I believe it will be just the information that you are looking for. Although it is a little long, you will benefit greatly! In fact, I would even recommend printing it and keeping it around as a reference tool.

http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=393


~Rural Preacher


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[Stinker]

Excellent article rural_preacher!

I would not say that everyone automatically believe the article, just that we keep it in mind till it can be disproven. I myself have not seen anything yet that could disprove it.

 

[sudzer]

I am a Baptist who has the gift of tongues, I was praying in a church when someone layed their hands on me, my hand crippled with arthritis was healed right away and I began to speak in tongues. I pray in the spirit at all times. For it is written to pray in the spirit for God is spirit. So there you have it. As baptist we are not told about the gifts, that if it be God's will and if we seek the gifts God will give them to us, if it be his will for us

 

[ghs1994]

Tongues is something I haven't done or if I have, I don't know it. I doesn't account for anything and I truly believe some put too much emphasis on it over other things. It's just a gift and the least of all of them ta boot.

 

[Stinker]

I am a Baptist who has the gift of tongues, I was praying in a church when someone layed their hands on me, my hand crippled with arthritis was healed right away and I began to speak in tongues. I pray in the spirit at all times. For it is written to pray in the spirit for God is spirit. So there you have it. As baptist we are not told about the gifts, that if it be God's will and if we seek the gifts God will give them to us, if it be his will for us

I am not doubting what happened to you sudzer, becuase I do believe in miracles and the secular world even points to them on the Discovery channel and other places. The only problem I have with these miraculous operations is that they are not according to the pattern we find in the book of Acts.

 

[PreacherBoi1527]

Now i have a question after reading that article...when you speak in toungues are you speaking in a different language that is known on this Earth...or speaking in a language no one on this Earth knows? Cause he used the examples of German and Russian. So does that mean you speak in a language known to man...just not known to you?

-Preacher Boy

 

[mlqurgw]

There is only one place in the Scriptures that tounges are actually defined. Acts 2 Here is a response I wrote for another forum on why I am a cessationist.


Why I am a cessationist. I admit that much of this comes from “ Signs of the Apostles” by Walter Chantry. He is not my only source but he did help shape my views. I also read many Pentecostal pages on the subject and found almost all of them saying pretty much the same thing. Only that the gifts had not ceased but not giving any real reason why. I also studied some Pentecostal history and was convinced that the modern day gifts were absent until about the 1800’s. Most of those who hold to modern day gifts trace their history to the so-called Azusa Street Revival which took place between 1906 to 1913. I must question why those gifts were absent, especially in the manner in which they are practiced today, until that time. Was not the Spirit working before that time?

Now to look at the way miracles and signs were used in the Scriptures.

Joseph was the first to receive extraordinary gifts from God. He didn’t work miracles but did do things that were not common. His gifts involved delivering divinely revealed truth. He was a Prophet of God.

Next we have Moses, the first to work miracles. His miracles were given as a sign that he came from God and spoke from God. This principle applies to all Old Testament miracles in that they were done as a sign that the one doing them was a Prophet from God and spoke for God. When they were done it was expected that the inspired word of God was to be spoken.

The miracles of Jesus are next in our study. His miracles were primarily to show His authority as the Prophet of God.



Joh 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

Joh 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.



Joh 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

Joh 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

The miracles of the Apostles testified to their authority as God’s prophets, they who spoke the revelation of God.



Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

Heb 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

New Testament miracles are, in Scripture, viewed as God’s stamp of approval on the message of the Apostles.



Ordinary Christians and gifts. After Pentecost every recorded instance of men receiving these gifts were under the direct ministry of an Apostle.

This brings me to the conclusion that no true servent of Christ will be given power to work miracles unless he is directly associated with bring fresh revelation from God. They are given as signs of God to show He sent the ones performing miracles and we should expect to hear from God when they are done. There are no more Apostles as there are no more that saw and heard directly from Christ as did those who gave us the Scriptures. Also to believe that men today receive a fresh revelation from God is to say the Scriptures are not sufficient.



Baptism in the Spirit is clearly shown to have taken place on the day of Pentecost.

Act 1:4 And having met with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to await the promise of the Father which you heard from Me.

Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized in the Holy Spirit not many days from now.

I do not find anywhere where there is a second work called a baptism in the Spirit. There are instances of fillings accompanied by the manifestations but only one baptism.



Speaking in tongues is only mentioned in Acts and 1Cor. If they were so important I believe they would have been spoken of in the other Epistles. The book of Romans was written after 1Cor. and the only gift repeated is prophesy, no mention of tongues.



The context of 1Cor. 12,13,14 is spiritual things not spiritual gifts. 1Cor. 12:1 does not have the word gift in it, it is another greek word altogether. Chapters 12&13 are concerned with divisions in the body, Some thinking they were higher in the body because of gifts. 14 merely teaches the proper use of tongues as opposed to prophesy in the Corinthian church not that they were to continue after the completed canon of Scripture.



These gifts were for a sign to unbelievers that they were speaking by God, that is , His word. I addressed this already.



As for 1Cor. 13:10 I do not believe that Paul is speaking of the completed canon of Scripture nor do I believe he was speaking of Christ, if he were he would have said Christ I believe. I am not sure what he is speaking of but I do think that it is possible that it is when we are glorified. Neither is he foretelling when the gifts will cease but only that they are temporary.



It seems clear to me that the book of Acts is a narration of the early Church and what happened to teach us how God established His Church in the world. It was not meant to teach doctrine nor should we learn doctrine from it exclusively. It should also be kept in mind that Paul wasn’t commending the Corinthians for their use of gifts but correcting them.



Now we have the complete inscripturated Word of God. The Apostles have all died and there are no more Apostles in the sense of those who were given special gifts and the ability to impart those gifts to men. I do believe it is clear from 1Cor. 13:11 that Paul is teaching that these things were for the establishing of the early Church. Modern day prophets claim to have new revelation from God and this denies that the Scripture are enough. I believe that Peter taught us that the Scriptures are mor to be believed than even our eyes or our experience.

2Pe 1:18 And we heard this voice being borne from Heaven, being with Him in the holy mountain.

2Pe 1:19 We also have a more sure Word of prophecy, to which you do well to take heed, as to a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the Daystar arises in your hearts,

2Pe 1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture came into being of its own private interpretation.

2Pe 1:21 For prophecy was not borne at any time by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke being borne along by the Holy Spirit.



Also God himself tells us that He has magnified His word even above His name.

Psa 138:2 I will worship toward Your holy temple, and praise Your name for Your loving-kindness and for Your truth's sake; for You have magnified Your Word above all Your name.

 

[JPPT1974]

Now i'm just indecisive...I have always said that God can do whatever he wants...but i've been bombarded with scripture that defends both sides...however it's all in King James or New King James...I'm only 15...ahhhhh!!!!...could someone atleast post something that i might have a hint of understanding? I really don't know what I think now...me and my friend (we're like best buds) don't pressure eachother about what we believe but we like to ask eachother questions and i just couldn't defend myself against the speaking in tounges portion of the Q & A...and you know what...i still can't...nor could i defend myself in saying i do (which i dont...or do)...i've been praying for understanding (not for talking in tounges...just understanding)...and i'm still confussed...

frustration...

Keep information coming...just make it to where i can understand...lol
-Preacher Boy

I thought you can only speak in tongues
But nobody can understand it
That is except you and God
Because what you say and do
Only is your business as well as God's business.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

I'm not big on speaking in tongues; I've never experienced this gift of the Spirit, and I don't have an overwhelming urge to receive it (unless God wills otherwise, of course). But my understanding of the Scriptures tell me that speaking in tongues never passed away, and that it still exists in the church. Whatever your opinion is, here is the pertinent passage.

Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. (1 Corinthians 13:8-10)



​

Many Baptists argue that tongues have "passed away" with the close of the canon. You might ask: what's so important about the close of the canon? Well, notice what is said in verse 10, "when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away." These Baptists reason that the "perfect" is the canon of Scripture, while the "partial" is the gift of tongues. They believe that tongues were a sign in the early church, which God made known for the benefit of believers and unbelievers, but that since the Scripture is a greater revelation, tongues are no longer necessary.


This is why I disagree. First of all, Apostle Paul does not identify "the perfect" with the canon of Scripture. In fact, nowhere does the Bible refer to any canon of Scripture.

the perfect thing refer to prophecies ..

Jesus Christ is alway in male form in greek, the scriptures are in female form in greek..

perfect is in the neutor thing...

Christ Jesus refers to the Law, Psalms, and Prophets, which make up the Old Testament (St. Luke 24:44), and Peter refers to Paul's writings as Scripture (2 Peter 3:15-16). But there is no direct reference to the whole of canonical Scripture Furthermore, there is no point in time when we can say that the canon of Scripture was officially closed. Did the canon close when Apostle John died? Or was it when he finished writing the Revelation? We can't use either of these as a date for the close of the canon, because the New Testament hadn't fully circulated within the early church by this time.

what is the importants of a closed cannon... when the mormon church states that its alright to have more than one wife then ...then says wait [we want to become a state...Two wifes is wrong says a mormon prophet?]

any one can add to the bible..

can a prophet perdict the future long term and short term and if not according to OT ..kill them

At this time, the canonical Bible as we now know it had been written, but not all the churches had a standardized canon Scripture. The only Bible the church had was the Old Testament, the epistles of the Apostles, and perhaps a Gospel or two. Even this wasn't definitive. The church had not yet determined what books should be in the Old Testament, there were many forged epistles circulating, and heretics had already written false gospels to decieve the Christians.

The closest thing I can think of to a closing of the canon is the Council of Hippo in 393, which approved the Biblical canon that Bishop Saint Athanasius had recorded in his Easter Letter of 367. Even this wasn't "perfect" for two reasons. First, the Council of Hippo wasn't an ecumenical council, so not all the churches recognized it. Secondly, Athanasius made one minor error in his canon. He mistakenly placed Esther in the Apocrypha, and Baruch in the Old Testament. That's not too bad, especially since most Christian theology doesn't strongly rely on Esther, but it still isn't perfect.

For this reason, I think that the spiritual gifts, including tongues, still exist in the church today. It seems to me that by "perfect," Apostle Paul was referring to the Second Advent of our Lord Jesus.

2 peter 1:19-21

 

[A Brother In Christ]

i like 1 cor 14:23...

2 cor 5:7,heb 11:1