Speaking in Tongues

[GodsGrace101]

What if a person does not speak in tongues?
Are they still invited into the assembly of believers?
Are they believed not to have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?
Since this is considered to be an INITIAL sign, do the other signs not matter UNTIL
this initial sign of tongues is shown in the believer?

Thanks.

 

[Dave-W]

What if a person does not speak in tongues?
Are they still invited into the assembly of believers?

My MIL and FIL were Assy of God members most of their lives.
To my knowledge, neither ever spoke in tongues.

Are they believed not to have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

Some believe that way - yes.

Personally, I do not agree with that position but WHY is too long to go into here. Suffice it to say the verses they use to support their belief actually say PROPHECY, not tongues.

Since this is considered to be an INITIAL sign, do the other signs not matter UNTIL
this initial sign of tongues is shown in the believer?

AFAIK, ANY of the Charismatic gifts from 1 Cor 12 should suffice as evidence.

Could you really say that a person who has the gift of miracles or healings or Word of Knowledge is NOT baptized in the Holy Spirit?

 

[quietbloke]

What if a person does not speak in tongues?
Are they still invited into the assembly of believers?
Are they believed not to have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?
Since this is considered to be an INITIAL sign, do the other signs not matter UNTIL
this initial sign of tongues is shown in the believer?

Thanks.

The Holy Spirit indwells every born again believer. Being born again into new life in Jesus as Saviour and Lord is an operation of the Holy Spirit. The Baptism in the Holy Spirit or being filled with the Holy Spirit should follow being born again. The Holy Spirit overflows and power is received from God to witness and live a life in the fullness of the Holy Spirit'Repent and be baptised and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit',we are taught in Acts. We are not to confuse the indwelling of the Holy Spirit with being filled with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Dave-W]

The Holy Spirit indwells every born again believer.

I believe that to be true; but it is NOT the understanding of most classical pentecostal groups.

 

[quietbloke]

I believe that to be true; but it is NOT the understanding of most classical pentecostal groups.

It is certainly true of Assemblies of God

 

[DW1980]

Hi

What if a person does not speak in tongues?
Are they still invited into the assembly of believers?
Are they believed not to have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?
Since this is considered to be an INITIAL sign, do the other signs not matter UNTIL
this initial sign of tongues is shown in the believer?

Thanks.

Of course they are - the gifts have to be received. We all receive the Holy Spirit when we are born again, whether we ask for the gifts or the baptism of the Spirit is another issue.

 

[rockytopva]

Here is a lady speaking in tongues in one of our church services.

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? - 1 Corinthians 12

18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. - 1 Corinthians 14

The Holy Spirit is welcome to move in our church. If an interpretation is not given we consider it a sign that someone is being disobedient. We would like the Holy Spirit to fall on all with the gift of the speaking of tongues, but in most cases it is done by one, or at the most, three.

 

[Ken Rank]

What if a person does not speak in tongues?
Are they still invited into the assembly of believers?
Are they believed not to have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?
Since this is considered to be an INITIAL sign, do the other signs not matter UNTIL
this initial sign of tongues is shown in the believer?

Thanks.

You'll get answers all over the board on this but I encourage you to find the balance in this. I have submitted to God through Christ over 22 years ago, my life and the life of my family is centered on Him and His ways. We're not perfect, but He is the foundation of all we do. I have never spoken in tongues, not once. Early on this really bothered me because, living on the eastern edge of central Kentucky, we border a lot of more pentecostalish churches and this is a common and popular doctrine... that the manifestation of the holy Spirit is the speaking in tongues.

As I have learned and grown, however, I realize that this is a teaching is not as sound as it's adherents believe it is. God CAN manifest Himself in the lives of believers in the form of tongues, but it is but ONE gift that is such a manifestation, and it is the least of all gifts. Consider...

1 Cor. 12:28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. (29) Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? (30) Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?

The obvious answer to each question is "No," that how God manifests Himself in each of our lives is going to be different based on our callings. And yet, for some reason (I have an idea why, but won't bore you with it) tongues is taken from the bottom of the list (by a minority of Christians by the way) and exalted to the top of the list along with a non-Scriptural decree that states ALL MUST HAVE this gift. It simply isn't Scripture.

Remember, the word tongue simply means language. When the disciples spoke in other tongues in Acts 2 to the crowd below... they were speaking in OTHER LANGUAGES and when we take into consideration the verse that says that the crowd below was made up of people from other nations... then "other languages" means just that... not some unknown, gibberish sounding language.... but rather Persian, Etruscan, Greek, Latin, Parthian, etc. It was a miracle, no doubt... but it was a move of the Spirit to reach those there on that day. To take that and create a doctrine that says we all must have this (or a similar) ability is simply not a sound conclusion.

I will leave you with this... we are NOT known by our gifts, we are known by our fruit. But that fruit isn't our works... the fruit is the fruit of the Spirit within us. For we are nothing, and we can do nothing, without God. Therefore, we don't save souls and notch our belts and that is our fruit... our fruit is His fruit...

Gal. 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, (23) gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

If somebody speaks in tongues but isn't kind, has no joy or peace, and there is no love in their words... I am to ignore that because they speak in tongues? Balance... find balance here sis.

Blessings.
Ken

 

[Dave-W]

It is certainly true of Assemblies of God

That is a recent change then. Back circa 1966 when we joined the A/G, they told us if you did not speak in tongues you did NOT have the Holy Spirit.

So I became a "chronic seeker."

 

[quietbloke]

The Assemblies of God statement of belief is found at the head of this Pentecostal Assemblies of God forum.

 

[GodsGrace101]

My MIL and FIL were Assy of God members most of their lives.
To my knowledge, neither ever spoke in tongues.

Some believe that way - yes.

Personally, I do not agree with that position but WHY is too long to go into here. Suffice it to say the verses they use to support their belief actually say PROPHECY, not tongues.

AFAIK, ANY of the Charismatic gifts from 1 Cor 12 should suffice as evidence.

Could you really say that a person who has the gift of miracles or healings or Word of Knowledge is NOT baptized in the Holy Spirit?

I do agree with you. Whether one speaks in tongues or not seems to be irrelevant to me.
No one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
God distributes to each one individually as He wills.
I believe this is the chapter where it's stated that love is the best gift of all...

There's a very small A of G church near my home and I've been thinking of trying it. I've been saved a long time but have never spoken in tongues. I don't know why. It seems that God should just give me this gift if He wants to, not that I need to look for it all my life.

Thanks for the post.

 

[GodsGrace101]

The Holy Spirit indwells every born again believer. Being born again into new life in Jesus as Saviour and Lord is an operation of the Holy Spirit. The Baptism in the Holy Spirit or being filled with the Holy Spirit should follow being born again. The Holy Spirit overflows and power is received from God to witness and live a life in the fullness of the Holy Spirit'Repent and be baptised and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit',we are taught in Acts. We are not to confuse the indwelling of the Holy Spirit with being filled with the Holy Spirit.

Are you saying that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues?
(Acts 2)

 

[GodsGrace101]

Here is a lady speaking in tongues in one of our church services.

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? - 1 Corinthians 12

18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. - 1 Corinthians 14

The Holy Spirit is welcome to move in our church. If an interpretation is not given we consider it a sign that someone is being disobedient. We would like the Holy Spirit to fall on all with the gift of the speaking of tongues, but in most cases it is done by one, or at the most, three.

Thanks for posting the video.

 

[1stcenturylady]

You'll get answers all over the board on this but I encourage you to find the balance in this. I have submitted to God through Christ over 22 years ago, my life and the life of my family is centered on Him and His ways. We're not perfect, but He is the foundation of all we do. I have never spoken in tongues, not once. Early on this really bothered me because, living on the eastern edge of central Kentucky, we border a lot of more pentecostalish churches and this is a common and popular doctrine... that the manifestation of the holy Spirit is the speaking in tongues.

As I have learned and grown, however, I realize that this is a teaching is not as sound as it's adherents believe it is. God CAN manifest Himself in the lives of believers in the form of tongues, but it is but ONE gift that is such a manifestation, and it is the least of all gifts. Consider...

1 Cor. 12:28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. (29) Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? (30) Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?

The obvious answer to each question is "No," that how God manifests Himself in each of our lives is going to be different based on our callings. And yet, for some reason (I have an idea why, but won't bore you with it) tongues is taken from the bottom of the list (by a minority of Christians by the way) and exalted to the top of the list along with a non-Scriptural decree that states ALL MUST HAVE this gift. It simply isn't Scripture.

Remember, the word tongue simply means language. When the disciples spoke in other tongues in Acts 2 to the crowd below... they were speaking in OTHER LANGUAGES and when we take into consideration the verse that says that the crowd below was made up of people from other nations... then "other languages" means just that... not some unknown, gibberish sounding language.... but rather Persian, Etruscan, Greek, Latin, Parthian, etc. It was a miracle, no doubt... but it was a move of the Spirit to reach those there on that day. To take that and create a doctrine that says we all must have this (or a similar) ability is simply not a sound conclusion.

I will leave you with this... we are NOT known by our gifts, we are known by our fruit. But that fruit isn't our works... the fruit is the fruit of the Spirit within us. For we are nothing, and we can do nothing, without God. Therefore, we don't save souls and notch our belts and that is our fruit... our fruit is His fruit...

Gal. 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, (23) gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

If somebody speaks in tongues but isn't kind, has no joy or peace, and there is no love in their words... I am to ignore that because they speak in tongues? Balance... find balance here sis.

Blessings.
Ken

Hi Kenny

 

[quietbloke]

Are you saying that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues?
(Acts 2)

People very often speak in tongues when they are filled with the Holy Spirit

 

[GodsGrace101]

You'll get answers all over the board on this but I encourage you to find the balance in this. I have submitted to God through Christ over 22 years ago, my life and the life of my family is centered on Him and His ways. We're not perfect, but He is the foundation of all we do. I have never spoken in tongues, not once. Early on this really bothered me because, living on the eastern edge of central Kentucky, we border a lot of more pentecostalish churches and this is a common and popular doctrine... that the manifestation of the holy Spirit is the speaking in tongues.

As I have learned and grown, however, I realize that this is a teaching is not as sound as it's adherents believe it is. God CAN manifest Himself in the lives of believers in the form of tongues, but it is but ONE gift that is such a manifestation, and it is the least of all gifts. Consider...

1 Cor. 12:28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. (29) Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? (30) Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?

The obvious answer to each question is "No," that how God manifests Himself in each of our lives is going to be different based on our callings. And yet, for some reason (I have an idea why, but won't bore you with it) tongues is taken from the bottom of the list (by a minority of Christians by the way) and exalted to the top of the list along with a non-Scriptural decree that states ALL MUST HAVE this gift. It simply isn't Scripture.

Remember, the word tongue simply means language. When the disciples spoke in other tongues in Acts 2 to the crowd below... they were speaking in OTHER LANGUAGES and when we take into consideration the verse that says that the crowd below was made up of people from other nations... then "other languages" means just that... not some unknown, gibberish sounding language.... but rather Persian, Etruscan, Greek, Latin, Parthian, etc. It was a miracle, no doubt... but it was a move of the Spirit to reach those there on that day. To take that and create a doctrine that says we all must have this (or a similar) ability is simply not a sound conclusion.

I will leave you with this... we are NOT known by our gifts, we are known by our fruit. But that fruit isn't our works... the fruit is the fruit of the Spirit within us. For we are nothing, and we can do nothing, without God. Therefore, we don't save souls and notch our belts and that is our fruit... our fruit is His fruit...

Gal. 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, (23) gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

If somebody speaks in tongues but isn't kind, has no joy or peace, and there is no love in their words... I am to ignore that because they speak in tongues? Balance... find balance here sis.

Blessings.
Ken

You've said so much it's difficult to speak to everything.
I agree with all you've said and I'm happy to see that your thoughts are not uncommon by the answers I've received. This is encouraging since there are no other protestant churches near my home.

I would not have been bored with your idea of why this gift has been put to the top by some churches, but if you prefer not to say, for whatever reason, that's fine.

Thanks!

 

[Dave-W]

Whether one speaks in tongues or not seems to be irrelevant to me.
No one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
God distributes to each one individually as He wills.
I believe this is the chapter where it's stated that love is the best gift of all...

You are combining 1 Cor. chapters 12 and 13. But that is ok. No chapter divisions when it was written.

I would encourage you to get a book (written by a couple of Presbyterian pastors even) that has a good take on this subject. I hope you can find it over there in Italy.

https://www.amazon.com/Receiving-Power-Preparing-Holy-Spirit/dp/0800792467


These 2 guys are both friends of mine: Long (on the left) and McMurry:

 

[Dave-W]

Are you saying that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues?
(Acts 2)

Often tongues is evidence of being baptized in the Holy Spirit; but there is also a false gift, brought on by demonization. I knew one guy who tried so hard (fleshly striving) to evidence tongues he got the demon instead.

So be careful with how you approach it. It is dangerous to seek a gift rather than seeking the Giver.

 

[Ken Rank]

I would not have been bored with your idea of why this gift has been put to the top by some churches, but if you prefer not to say, for whatever reason, that's fine.

I don't mind... I had written a lot and didn't want to overstay my welcome.

Basically, tradition. One of the things we teach people is that we are born into a certain paradigm that is based on all of the subconscious learning we take in as we grow up. In other words, if our parents were raised Catholic and believe that baptism is done by sprinkling an infant, then, because that is what I had been exposed to in relation to that word all the years of my youth, then when I read the word baptism in the bible, I will only see sprinkling because that it what I was raised to see. It becomes part of my bias (we all have a bias) and unless I reach a point of maturity where I can look at my own bias' through a more even lens, I won't ever know that baptism might include immersion.

Likewise, when a small group of Christians take on a view that speaking in tongues is "the" manifestation of the Holy Spirit within us... then as their children grow up seeing and hearing this teaching throughout all their formative years... it will simply become part of who and what they are because that is all they have ever known.

Evenly (and openly) looking at our own paradigm/bias and weighing in information that is contrary to the thoughts and ideas we were raised in is a very hard thing to do. But I also believe that being able to do so is vital to our spiritual growth. Otherwise, God is always being forced into our narrow lens and much of His greatness becomes overlooked.

 

[danbuter]

What if a person does not speak in tongues?
Are they still invited into the assembly of believers?
Are they believed not to have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?
Since this is considered to be an INITIAL sign, do the other signs not matter UNTIL
this initial sign of tongues is shown in the believer?

Thanks.

The only thing "speaking in tongues" meant is that people were using other actual languages to preach about Jesus. It had nothing to do with the flopping around spouting gibberish act that some sects have turned it into. See Acts for details.