Speaking in tongues

PollyJetix said:

1stcenturylady...

Just a few points, based on your post...
1. How could the 12 have received the Holy Ghost when Jesus breathed on them? The Holy Ghost had not yet been sent from heaven. I doubt that they actually received it that night. I suspect what Jesus gave was simply a preview of that "rushing mighty wind" that filled the house. Jesus was not yet ascended. He breathed a presence of Heaven over them, to keep them, perhaps, until the Day of Pentecost, when they would receive the Baptism of the Holy Ghost. "Baptism" means overwhelming. Dunking. And that's what happened on Pentecost.

2. I don't think there is sufficient Scripture to maintain the position that there are 2 Holy Ghost baptisms. The 12 who were breathed upon, did indeed receive the Baptism of the Holy Ghost on the Day of Pentecost... just as did the others of the 120. And the 12 were among the group who were re-visited by the Holy Ghost again in Acts 4! That would have been their 3rd baptism, if each visitation were to be considered a re-baptism.
The early Pentecostals of Appalachia tried to put labels on subsequent visitations of the Holy Ghost. They had the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, and then they called the next one, the Baptism of Fire, then there came Baptisms of Lyddite, etc. None of which are in the Bible. They just wanted to call it something. But it was based on their imagination, not the Word.

But there is only one Baptism of the Holy Ghost, and it is the "receiving" of the Holy Ghost, in Scripture.

3. In Acts 8, the way the Apostles knew the believers had not received the Holy Ghost, was not because of some deep, spiritual, unseen revelation in their spirits. It was because... read it in verse 16. The apostles went down to pray for them because the Holy Ghost had not yet "fallen upon" them.



They were baptized, but they had not yet received the Holy Ghost.
How did they know? Because the Holy Ghost had not yet "fallen upon" them.
What did "falling upon" consist of?

Well, you have to read further, to get a hint:


This "recieving" of the Holy Ghost by having Him "fall upon" you was so dramatic that Simon the Sorcerer asked for the power to do it.
Notice, Simon was a very carnal person. This was not something only perceived by super-spiritual people.
And Simon had followed Phillip around, marveling at the signs and wonders.
Simon himself was a wonder-worker. He was amazed at the power Phillip had, and was trying to pick up some "vibes" perhaps, by hanging around him.
But what he saw when the Holy Ghost fell upon the believers... it outdid all he had seen Phillip do. He knew THIS was the holy grail of spiritual power!

He saw something. Something bigger than any of the signs and wonders. What was it?

I think we are very safe to say it was tongues. And probably a good bit of other physical manifestation.

After all, what other outward sign was ever accepted as proof that new believers had received the Holy Ghost?
Acts 19, they believed and were baptized... and THEN, subsequent to the new birth, and to water baptism, they received the Holy Ghost. (which is the pattern, usually.)
Acts 8, They believed and were baptized... and then, it didn't happen... so the apostles risked their lives to make sure they received... and they did... they knew, by an outward evidence.
Acts 2, Peter preached that if the crowd would believe, repent, and be baptized, they would receive. (Notice the order of operations) And what that crowd was expecting to receive, was "THIS is THAT"... which the 120 were demonstrating... and that's what they got. Otherwise, Peter was guilty of false advertising.

4. New believers receive Christ, not the Holy Ghost, at the moment of the new birth.

NOW, The spirit of Christ is Christ Himself, not the Holy Ghost... After all, as a person before his baptism, Christ was God in the flesh. The Spirit of Christ from ages past dwelt in that body of flesh. But the Holy Ghost came upon Christ at His baptism. Two separate persons of the godhead there.

Romans 7 was a cry for help. Paul loved God in his spirit. His inner man. It wasn't really the real Paul, who sinned. This is happening to one who is born again. "Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" He cries!
Romans 8 is a promise: There is deliverance from that power, by a greater power.

Look at verse 10. If Christ is in us, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive, because of righteousness.
This is Romans 7!!
BUT.
BUT there's a higher step, than just having Christ in you!
The word BUT means something.
It means "however".

You see, the one who raised up Jesus, isn't Jesus. It's the Father.
And the Holy Spirit, is the Spirit sent from the Father! Remember that Jesus said the Father would send the Spirit, if He would ascend to the Father? The Spirit could not come until Jesus went up.

So, if Christ is in you, your fleshly body is a dead weight on you, because the real you inside is alive in Christ.
BUT... HOWEVER!
... if the Spirit of Him who raised up Christ from the dead dwells in you--tell me what happens?!!
THEN, it brings to life this mortal body!

The context is not talking about the resurrection after physical death.
Not before or after.
The entire context is talking about death and life in a spiritual sense, and victory over a fleshly body.

Verse 11 is, too.
The path to victory over the flesh... the route to putting life into "the body of this death" ... is to be filled with
"The Spirit of Him that raised Christ from the dead!"

And THAT, my dear, is the BAPTISM OF THE HOLY GHOST.

Read Acts 8 and Acts 19. The disciples in Ephesus were asked if they had "received' the Holy Ghost since they had believed.
IF the Holy Ghost is received at the moment of conversion, Paul would never have asked them if it had happened. He would only have asked them if they had believed on Jesus Christ!
It's a bit like asking at a restaurant in south Georgia, if grits came with the eggs.

Today, most Christians would never dare to ask Paul's question, because of the implications.
But Paul's question is just as valid today as it was back then.
And once a new convert is baptized, they ought to have hands laid upon them, and the Holy Ghost should be expected to "fall upon" them.

Otherwise, we are not preaching the same gospel Paul, or any of the other apostles, preached.

And if we say the Holy Ghost is automatically received without any outward manifestation, at the moment of the new birth, then we preach a different doctrine than what the apostles in Acts 8 preached.

(sarcasm on) If the apostles had only known it was an automatic thing, they could have stayed in hiding, and not have risked their lives over this! (sarcasm off)

Click to expand...

Third: Polly, Romans 7 is the conclusion of Paul's sermon on THE LAW before Christ, from chapter 1. And verse 10 of Romans 8 is NOT the same as Romans 7. Read it in context. Context, context, context!

See, Paul is talking about the LAW: "7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died."

Romans 8:10 is talking about our BODIES which are not renewed, only our spirit. "But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness."

1stcenturylady said:

Second point: It is not a third, as the apostles only received two. The first when Jesus breathed on them, and on the Day of Pentecost. The apostles were off to the side when the 120 were praising God in tongues.

Click to expand...

Problem 1. You are saying the Apostles received when Jesus breathed on them, and also on the day of Pentecost, as they stood off to the side?

But we see clearly that the Holy Ghost fell on the 12 as they praised God in Acts 4!...

Problem 2. The Bible doesn't say they stood off to the side, anywhere. You are adding that. Yes, the 12 stood up together, and Peter began to be spokesman, as usual... but that doesn't say they were off to the side, receiving silently as the rest of the 120 were receiving.

What you are saying doesn't make sense.

Oscarr said:

There is nothing there to say that He wasn't!

Click to expand...

Oh, no. Not another, "If it doesn't say anything about it, we're completely free to make it into a dogma."

If people would only thing that notion, they'd see what it leads to, which is everything that they condemn the ultra-liberal denominations for engaging in.

PollyJetix said:

1stcenturylady...

Just a few points, based on your post...
1. How could the 12 have received the Holy Ghost when Jesus breathed on them? The Holy Ghost had not yet been sent from heaven. I doubt that they actually received it that night. I suspect what Jesus gave was simply a preview of that "rushing mighty wind" that filled the house. Jesus was not yet ascended. He breathed a presence of Heaven over them, to keep them, perhaps, until the Day of Pentecost, when they would receive the Baptism of the Holy Ghost. "Baptism" means overwhelming. Dunking. And that's what happened on Pentecost.

2. I don't think there is sufficient Scripture to maintain the position that there are 2 Holy Ghost baptisms. The 12 who were breathed upon, did indeed receive the Baptism of the Holy Ghost on the Day of Pentecost... just as did the others of the 120. And the 12 were among the group who were re-visited by the Holy Ghost again in Acts 4! That would have been their 3rd baptism, if each visitation were to be considered a re-baptism.
The early Pentecostals of Appalachia tried to put labels on subsequent visitations of the Holy Ghost. They had the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, and then they called the next one, the Baptism of Fire, then there came Baptisms of Lyddite, etc. None of which are in the Bible. They just wanted to call it something. But it was based on their imagination, not the Word.

But there is only one Baptism of the Holy Ghost, and it is the "receiving" of the Holy Ghost, in Scripture.

3. In Acts 8, the way the Apostles knew the believers had not received the Holy Ghost, was not because of some deep, spiritual, unseen revelation in their spirits. It was because... read it in verse 16. The apostles went down to pray for them because the Holy Ghost had not yet "fallen upon" them.



They were baptized, but they had not yet received the Holy Ghost.
How did they know? Because the Holy Ghost had not yet "fallen upon" them.
What did "falling upon" consist of?

Well, you have to read further, to get a hint:


This "recieving" of the Holy Ghost by having Him "fall upon" you was so dramatic that Simon the Sorcerer asked for the power to do it.
Notice, Simon was a very carnal person. This was not something only perceived by super-spiritual people.
And Simon had followed Phillip around, marveling at the signs and wonders.
Simon himself was a wonder-worker. He was amazed at the power Phillip had, and was trying to pick up some "vibes" perhaps, by hanging around him.
But what he saw when the Holy Ghost fell upon the believers... it outdid all he had seen Phillip do. He knew THIS was the holy grail of spiritual power!

He saw something. Something bigger than any of the signs and wonders. What was it?

I think we are very safe to say it was tongues. And probably a good bit of other physical manifestation.

After all, what other outward sign was ever accepted as proof that new believers had received the Holy Ghost?
Acts 19, they believed and were baptized... and THEN, subsequent to the new birth, and to water baptism, they received the Holy Ghost. (which is the pattern, usually.)
Acts 8, They believed and were baptized... and then, it didn't happen... so the apostles risked their lives to make sure they received... and they did... they knew, by an outward evidence.
Acts 2, Peter preached that if the crowd would believe, repent, and be baptized, they would receive. (Notice the order of operations) And what that crowd was expecting to receive, was "THIS is THAT"... which the 120 were demonstrating... and that's what they got. Otherwise, Peter was guilty of false advertising.

4. New believers receive Christ, not the Holy Ghost, at the moment of the new birth.

NOW, The spirit of Christ is Christ Himself, not the Holy Ghost... After all, as a person before his baptism, Christ was God in the flesh. The Spirit of Christ from ages past dwelt in that body of flesh. But the Holy Ghost came upon Christ at His baptism. Two separate persons of the godhead there.

Romans 7 was a cry for help. Paul loved God in his spirit. His inner man. It wasn't really the real Paul, who sinned. This is happening to one who is born again. "Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" He cries!
Romans 8 is a promise: There is deliverance from that power, by a greater power.

Look at verse 10. If Christ is in us, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive, because of righteousness.
This is Romans 7!!
BUT.
BUT there's a higher step, than just having Christ in you!
The word BUT means something.
It means "however".

You see, the one who raised up Jesus, isn't Jesus. It's the Father.
And the Holy Spirit, is the Spirit sent from the Father! Remember that Jesus said the Father would send the Spirit, if He would ascend to the Father? The Spirit could not come until Jesus went up.

So, if Christ is in you, your fleshly body is a dead weight on you, because the real you inside is alive in Christ.
BUT... HOWEVER!
... if the Spirit of Him who raised up Christ from the dead dwells in you--tell me what happens?!!
THEN, it brings to life this mortal body!

The context is not talking about the resurrection after physical death.
Not before or after.
The entire context is talking about death and life in a spiritual sense, and victory over a fleshly body.

Verse 11 is, too.
The path to victory over the flesh... the route to putting life into "the body of this death" ... is to be filled with
"The Spirit of Him that raised Christ from the dead!"

And THAT, my dear, is the BAPTISM OF THE HOLY GHOST.

Read Acts 8 and Acts 19. The disciples in Ephesus were asked if they had "received' the Holy Ghost since they had believed.
IF the Holy Ghost is received at the moment of conversion, Paul would never have asked them if it had happened. He would only have asked them if they had believed on Jesus Christ!
It's a bit like asking at a restaurant in south Georgia, if grits came with the eggs.

Today, most Christians would never dare to ask Paul's question, because of the implications.
But Paul's question is just as valid today as it was back then.
And once a new convert is baptized, they ought to have hands laid upon them, and the Holy Ghost should be expected to "fall upon" them.

Otherwise, we are not preaching the same gospel Paul, or any of the other apostles, preached.

And if we say the Holy Ghost is automatically received without any outward manifestation, at the moment of the new birth, then we preach a different doctrine than what the apostles in Acts 8 preached.

(sarcasm on) If the apostles had only known it was an automatic thing, they could have stayed in hiding, and not have risked their lives over this! (sarcasm off)

Click to expand...

Fourth: You say that it was the Father that raised Jesus, not Jesus. Actually it was the Trinity. As they are one.

The Father: Acts 2:24; Romans 6:4
The Son: John 10:17-18; John 2:19
Spirit: 1 Peter 3:18; Romans 8:11

PollyJetix said:

1stcenturylady...

Just a few points, based on your post...
1. How could the 12 have received the Holy Ghost when Jesus breathed on them? The Holy Ghost had not yet been sent from heaven. I doubt that they actually received it that night. I suspect what Jesus gave was simply a preview of that "rushing mighty wind" that filled the house. Jesus was not yet ascended. He breathed a presence of Heaven over them, to keep them, perhaps, until the Day of Pentecost, when they would receive the Baptism of the Holy Ghost. "Baptism" means overwhelming. Dunking. And that's what happened on Pentecost.

2. I don't think there is sufficient Scripture to maintain the position that there are 2 Holy Ghost baptisms. The 12 who were breathed upon, did indeed receive the Baptism of the Holy Ghost on the Day of Pentecost... just as did the others of the 120. And the 12 were among the group who were re-visited by the Holy Ghost again in Acts 4! That would have been their 3rd baptism, if each visitation were to be considered a re-baptism.
The early Pentecostals of Appalachia tried to put labels on subsequent visitations of the Holy Ghost. They had the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, and then they called the next one, the Baptism of Fire, then there came Baptisms of Lyddite, etc. None of which are in the Bible. They just wanted to call it something. But it was based on their imagination, not the Word.

But there is only one Baptism of the Holy Ghost, and it is the "receiving" of the Holy Ghost, in Scripture.

3. In Acts 8, the way the Apostles knew the believers had not received the Holy Ghost, was not because of some deep, spiritual, unseen revelation in their spirits. It was because... read it in verse 16. The apostles went down to pray for them because the Holy Ghost had not yet "fallen upon" them.



They were baptized, but they had not yet received the Holy Ghost.
How did they know? Because the Holy Ghost had not yet "fallen upon" them.
What did "falling upon" consist of?

Well, you have to read further, to get a hint:


This "recieving" of the Holy Ghost by having Him "fall upon" you was so dramatic that Simon the Sorcerer asked for the power to do it.
Notice, Simon was a very carnal person. This was not something only perceived by super-spiritual people.
And Simon had followed Phillip around, marveling at the signs and wonders.
Simon himself was a wonder-worker. He was amazed at the power Phillip had, and was trying to pick up some "vibes" perhaps, by hanging around him.
But what he saw when the Holy Ghost fell upon the believers... it outdid all he had seen Phillip do. He knew THIS was the holy grail of spiritual power!

He saw something. Something bigger than any of the signs and wonders. What was it?

I think we are very safe to say it was tongues. And probably a good bit of other physical manifestation.

After all, what other outward sign was ever accepted as proof that new believers had received the Holy Ghost?
Acts 19, they believed and were baptized... and THEN, subsequent to the new birth, and to water baptism, they received the Holy Ghost. (which is the pattern, usually.)
Acts 8, They believed and were baptized... and then, it didn't happen... so the apostles risked their lives to make sure they received... and they did... they knew, by an outward evidence.
Acts 2, Peter preached that if the crowd would believe, repent, and be baptized, they would receive. (Notice the order of operations) And what that crowd was expecting to receive, was "THIS is THAT"... which the 120 were demonstrating... and that's what they got. Otherwise, Peter was guilty of false advertising.

4. New believers receive Christ, not the Holy Ghost, at the moment of the new birth.

NOW, The spirit of Christ is Christ Himself, not the Holy Ghost... After all, as a person before his baptism, Christ was God in the flesh. The Spirit of Christ from ages past dwelt in that body of flesh. But the Holy Ghost came upon Christ at His baptism. Two separate persons of the godhead there.

Romans 7 was a cry for help. Paul loved God in his spirit. His inner man. It wasn't really the real Paul, who sinned. This is happening to one who is born again. "Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" He cries!
Romans 8 is a promise: There is deliverance from that power, by a greater power.

Look at verse 10. If Christ is in us, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive, because of righteousness.
This is Romans 7!!
BUT.
BUT there's a higher step, than just having Christ in you!
The word BUT means something.
It means "however".

You see, the one who raised up Jesus, isn't Jesus. It's the Father.
And the Holy Spirit, is the Spirit sent from the Father! Remember that Jesus said the Father would send the Spirit, if He would ascend to the Father? The Spirit could not come until Jesus went up.

So, if Christ is in you, your fleshly body is a dead weight on you, because the real you inside is alive in Christ.
BUT... HOWEVER!
... if the Spirit of Him who raised up Christ from the dead dwells in you--tell me what happens?!!
THEN, it brings to life this mortal body!

The context is not talking about the resurrection after physical death.
Not before or after.
The entire context is talking about death and life in a spiritual sense, and victory over a fleshly body.

Verse 11 is, too.
The path to victory over the flesh... the route to putting life into "the body of this death" ... is to be filled with
"The Spirit of Him that raised Christ from the dead!"

And THAT, my dear, is the BAPTISM OF THE HOLY GHOST.

Read Acts 8 and Acts 19. The disciples in Ephesus were asked if they had "received' the Holy Ghost since they had believed.
IF the Holy Ghost is received at the moment of conversion, Paul would never have asked them if it had happened. He would only have asked them if they had believed on Jesus Christ!
It's a bit like asking at a restaurant in south Georgia, if grits came with the eggs.

Today, most Christians would never dare to ask Paul's question, because of the implications.
But Paul's question is just as valid today as it was back then.
And once a new convert is baptized, they ought to have hands laid upon them, and the Holy Ghost should be expected to "fall upon" them.

Otherwise, we are not preaching the same gospel Paul, or any of the other apostles, preached.

And if we say the Holy Ghost is automatically received without any outward manifestation, at the moment of the new birth, then we preach a different doctrine than what the apostles in Acts 8 preached.

(sarcasm on) If the apostles had only known it was an automatic thing, they could have stayed in hiding, and not have risked their lives over this! (sarcasm off)

Click to expand...

Fifth: The EVIDENCE of the baptism of the Holy Spirit is being dead to sin. We receive a new mind, and a willing spirit to obey unto righteousness. Having gifts has nothing to do with righteousness. Righteousness comes first. There are some Pentecostals that say you MUST speak in tongues to be saved." Does that include you?

1stcenturylady said:

Fourth: You say that it was the Father that raised Jesus, not Jesus. Actually it was the Trinity. As they are one.

The Father: Acts 2:24; Romans 6:4
The Son: John 10:17-18; John 2:19
Spirit: 1 Peter 3:18; Romans 8:11

Click to expand...

John 10:17-18 says that Jesus had power to take back his life, because of having received a commandment from His Father.
That's the same thing as Peter walking on the water, because Jesus said, "Come!"
John 2:19... Only agrees with John 10:17-18. And with many other passages where Jesus said He had no power from himself. But only from the Father.

And the Spirit of the Father does the Father's will. The Father raised up Christ by the Holy Ghost, same as He impregnated Mary by the power of the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost does nothing of his own volition, same as Christ.

You have agreed that Romans 6:4 means that the Father raised up Jesus. Why are you arguing this point?

PollyJetix said:

1stcenturylady...

Just a few points, based on your post...
1. How could the 12 have received the Holy Ghost when Jesus breathed on them? The Holy Ghost had not yet been sent from heaven. I doubt that they actually received it that night. I suspect what Jesus gave was simply a preview of that "rushing mighty wind" that filled the house. Jesus was not yet ascended. He breathed a presence of Heaven over them, to keep them, perhaps, until the Day of Pentecost, when they would receive the Baptism of the Holy Ghost. "Baptism" means overwhelming. Dunking. And that's what happened on Pentecost.

2. I don't think there is sufficient Scripture to maintain the position that there are 2 Holy Ghost baptisms. The 12 who were breathed upon, did indeed receive the Baptism of the Holy Ghost on the Day of Pentecost... just as did the others of the 120. And the 12 were among the group who were re-visited by the Holy Ghost again in Acts 4! That would have been their 3rd baptism, if each visitation were to be considered a re-baptism.
The early Pentecostals of Appalachia tried to put labels on subsequent visitations of the Holy Ghost. They had the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, and then they called the next one, the Baptism of Fire, then there came Baptisms of Lyddite, etc. None of which are in the Bible. They just wanted to call it something. But it was based on their imagination, not the Word.

But there is only one Baptism of the Holy Ghost, and it is the "receiving" of the Holy Ghost, in Scripture.

3. In Acts 8, the way the Apostles knew the believers had not received the Holy Ghost, was not because of some deep, spiritual, unseen revelation in their spirits. It was because... read it in verse 16. The apostles went down to pray for them because the Holy Ghost had not yet "fallen upon" them.



They were baptized, but they had not yet received the Holy Ghost.
How did they know? Because the Holy Ghost had not yet "fallen upon" them.
What did "falling upon" consist of?

Well, you have to read further, to get a hint:


This "recieving" of the Holy Ghost by having Him "fall upon" you was so dramatic that Simon the Sorcerer asked for the power to do it.
Notice, Simon was a very carnal person. This was not something only perceived by super-spiritual people.
And Simon had followed Phillip around, marveling at the signs and wonders.
Simon himself was a wonder-worker. He was amazed at the power Phillip had, and was trying to pick up some "vibes" perhaps, by hanging around him.
But what he saw when the Holy Ghost fell upon the believers... it outdid all he had seen Phillip do. He knew THIS was the holy grail of spiritual power!

He saw something. Something bigger than any of the signs and wonders. What was it?

I think we are very safe to say it was tongues. And probably a good bit of other physical manifestation.

After all, what other outward sign was ever accepted as proof that new believers had received the Holy Ghost?
Acts 19, they believed and were baptized... and THEN, subsequent to the new birth, and to water baptism, they received the Holy Ghost. (which is the pattern, usually.)
Acts 8, They believed and were baptized... and then, it didn't happen... so the apostles risked their lives to make sure they received... and they did... they knew, by an outward evidence.
Acts 2, Peter preached that if the crowd would believe, repent, and be baptized, they would receive. (Notice the order of operations) And what that crowd was expecting to receive, was "THIS is THAT"... which the 120 were demonstrating... and that's what they got. Otherwise, Peter was guilty of false advertising.

4. New believers receive Christ, not the Holy Ghost, at the moment of the new birth.

NOW, The spirit of Christ is Christ Himself, not the Holy Ghost... After all, as a person before his baptism, Christ was God in the flesh. The Spirit of Christ from ages past dwelt in that body of flesh. But the Holy Ghost came upon Christ at His baptism. Two separate persons of the godhead there.

Romans 7 was a cry for help. Paul loved God in his spirit. His inner man. It wasn't really the real Paul, who sinned. This is happening to one who is born again. "Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" He cries!
Romans 8 is a promise: There is deliverance from that power, by a greater power.

Look at verse 10. If Christ is in us, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive, because of righteousness.
This is Romans 7!!
BUT.
BUT there's a higher step, than just having Christ in you!
The word BUT means something.
It means "however".

You see, the one who raised up Jesus, isn't Jesus. It's the Father.
And the Holy Spirit, is the Spirit sent from the Father! Remember that Jesus said the Father would send the Spirit, if He would ascend to the Father? The Spirit could not come until Jesus went up.

So, if Christ is in you, your fleshly body is a dead weight on you, because the real you inside is alive in Christ.
BUT... HOWEVER!
... if the Spirit of Him who raised up Christ from the dead dwells in you--tell me what happens?!!
THEN, it brings to life this mortal body!

The context is not talking about the resurrection after physical death.
Not before or after.
The entire context is talking about death and life in a spiritual sense, and victory over a fleshly body.

Verse 11 is, too.
The path to victory over the flesh... the route to putting life into "the body of this death" ... is to be filled with
"The Spirit of Him that raised Christ from the dead!"

And THAT, my dear, is the BAPTISM OF THE HOLY GHOST.

Read Acts 8 and Acts 19. The disciples in Ephesus were asked if they had "received' the Holy Ghost since they had believed.
IF the Holy Ghost is received at the moment of conversion, Paul would never have asked them if it had happened. He would only have asked them if they had believed on Jesus Christ!
It's a bit like asking at a restaurant in south Georgia, if grits came with the eggs.

Today, most Christians would never dare to ask Paul's question, because of the implications.
But Paul's question is just as valid today as it was back then.
And once a new convert is baptized, they ought to have hands laid upon them, and the Holy Ghost should be expected to "fall upon" them.

Otherwise, we are not preaching the same gospel Paul, or any of the other apostles, preached.

And if we say the Holy Ghost is automatically received without any outward manifestation, at the moment of the new birth, then we preach a different doctrine than what the apostles in Acts 8 preached.

(sarcasm on) If the apostles had only known it was an automatic thing, they could have stayed in hiding, and not have risked their lives over this! (sarcasm off)

Click to expand...

Sixth: Great point, Polly about Acts 8. It really makes sense that it was because the Holy Spirit had not fallen in that area of the country. I must remember that!

But, as for Acts 19, it was because they were merely disciples of John the Baptist, not Jesus. If they were believers in Jesus, they would have already been baptized again in His name, but they weren't.

1stcenturylady said:

Fifth: The EVIDENCE of the baptism of the Holy Spirit is being dead to sin. We receive a new mind, and a willing spirit to obey unto righteousness. Having gifts has nothing to do with righteousness. Righteousness comes first. There are some Pentecostals that say you MUST speak in tongues to be saved." Does that include you?

Click to expand...

Evidence of having become dead to sin takes a bit of time for others to observe.
The Apostles never looked for that evidence to tell them those in Samaria had finally received the Holy Ghost.
They looked for a definite outward supernatural manifestation that was instantaneously recognizable.
Tongues when the Holy Ghost was received, was the norm for the disciples.
Acts cannot make sense without understanding this.

PollyJetix said:

I made a mistake while posting. First of all, it was getting toward 2 a.m. because I was just home from visiting revivals 3 hrs away from home. And I had a prayer meeting to lead at 7 a.m. Time pressure there.
Second, I have bad eyesight. Just as I was posting, I somehow made the font very small. So I tried to correct it. But I didn't realize how large I corrected it. And I was so exhausted that I just couldn't mess with it further.

I don't think you realize how badly you have misinterpreted Scripture.

This is the kind of mistake that, if a lot of people latch onto, it creates strange doctrines.
The first Methodists thought that sanctification was a "second work of grace" and required ALL to seek that second work.
And they influenced the Pentecostal movement heavily... so that major denominations now see a three-step process:
First, they say you must be born again, then they say you must seek a spiritual breakthrough experience that sanctifies you... as if the Blood of Jesus didn't do that! Then and only then, they say, are you ready for the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

Problem is, that's not what the disciples taught or did in Acts. It was a two-step process. First came the new birth, with immediate water baptism. And then came the laying on of hands to receive the Holy Ghost. (Unless God chooses to upset this order of things, which He did once.)

What you are saying is that God does a two-step process of filling with the Holy Ghost.
I can't find that.
I see that the Holy Ghost fell in Acts 2 and again in Acts 4. But that's nothing unusual. I have had the Holy Ghost fall on me far more times than only 2! And His infilling is only growing every time. Not lessening.

If you make the time Jesus breathed on the 12, a baptism of the Holy Ghost, then you've got not 2, but 3 baptisms.
Because those 12 were there when Jesus breathed on them, and in Acts 2, and then also in Acts 4.
That makes 3 times.

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Then explain the Acts 4 account. They were the same people who spoke in tongues in Acts 2.

Polly, I study the Bible, and ask God a lot of questions. His Word is a tight mosaic of many scriptures, and NONE can contradict another, but just give further insight.

Albion said:

Oh, no. Not another, "If it doesn't say anything about it, we're completely free to make it into a dogma."

If people would only thing that notion, they'd see what it leads to, which is everything that they condemn the ultra-liberal denominations for engaging in.

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But your post didn't make sense either.

I know Oscar, and I don't think he read the background right, anymore than you did. Just a misunderstanding, nothing to get sarcastic about.

PollyJetix said:

John 10:17-18 says that Jesus had power to take back his life, because of having received a commandment from His Father.
That's the same thing as Peter walking on the water, because Jesus said, "Come!"
John 2:19... Only agrees with John 10:17-18. And with many other passages where Jesus said He had no power from himself. But only from the Father.

And the Spirit of the Father does the Father's will. The Father raised up Christ by the Holy Ghost, same as He impregnated Mary by the power of the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost does nothing of his own volition, same as Christ.

You have agreed that Romans 6:4 means that the Father raised up Jesus. Why are you arguing this point?

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Because you can't take one scripture and ignore the rest. When all are looked at, it was the Trinity, not just one of the godhead.

PollyJetix said:

Evidence of having become dead to sin takes a bit of time for others to observe.
The Apostles never looked for that evidence to tell them those in Samaria had finally received the Holy Ghost.
They looked for a definite outward supernatural manifestation that was instantaneously recognizable.
Tongues when the Holy Ghost was received, was the norm for the disciples.
Acts cannot make sense without understanding this.

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So, again, do you also believe you must speak in tongues to be saved? That should be a yes or no question.

1stcenturylady said:

But your post didn't make sense either..

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Then I'll recap for you.

There's nothing here that indicates that he was speaking to or about every believer for all of time to come.

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There is nothing there to say that He wasn't!

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If we start making doctrine on the basis of what is NOT mentioned in Scripture, we're just making things up. OK?

Albion said:

Then I'll recap for you.





If we start making doctrine on the basis of what is NOT mentioned in Scripture, we're just making things up. OK?

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So did the disciples receive the Holy Spirit when Jesus breathed on them or not? You referred to the whole world not me.

1stcenturylady said:

Oscar, what are you saying? That when Jesus breathed on the disciples in John 20 it was for us too? No, it was just to the apostles. Why would you think otherwise? Explain.

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What I am saying is that the first Apostles were Jesus' first disciples. They were to follow His example and in turn disciple others to follow the same example. The same Holy Spirit that Jesus breathed into the Apostles is the same Holy Spirit breathed into all of us. Whether it happens at conversion or later on is of no real consequence to the normal believer, although it might be a debate to keep otherwise bored theologians occupied.

The enduement of power for service, which many call the baptism in the Spirit, came on the Day of Pentecost, and that is where the Church was born and started its powerful ministry. The way the Early Church ministered and shared the gospel was the way that Jesus taught His first Apostles, and the Church was expected to follow that example until Jesus comes again.

When Jesus said to His disciples that the works He did they would do also, even greater works, He did not mean it to be limited to just the original 12. He meant that every other disciple who followed the original twelve would be able to enter into that promise as well.

There are ones who try to explain away signs and wonders and call modern day signs and wonders false because these people say that the power ministries that the Apostle had were limited to just that original group. What I am saying is that Jesus never indicated either way. Because of that, we can safely assume that everything the first Apostles received from the Lord, we, as subsequent disciples can receive the same things too.

Oscarr said:

What I am saying is that the first Apostles were Jesus' first disciples. They were to follow His example and in turn disciple others to follow the same example. The same Holy Spirit that Jesus breathed into the Apostles is the same Holy Spirit breathed into all of us. Whether it happens at conversion or later on is of no real consequence to the normal believer, although it might be a debate to keep otherwise bored theologians occupied.

The enduement of power for service, which many call the baptism in the Spirit, came on the Day of Pentecost, and that is where the Church was born and started its powerful ministry. The way the Early Church ministered and shared the gospel was the way that Jesus taught His first Apostles, and the Church was expected to follow that example until Jesus comes again.

When Jesus said to His disciples that the works He did they would do also, even greater works, He did not mean it to be limited to just the original 12. He meant that every other disciple who followed the original twelve would be able to enter into that promise as well.

There are ones who try to explain away signs and wonders and call modern day signs and wonders false because these people say that the power ministries that the Apostle had were limited to just that original group. What I am saying is that Jesus never indicated either way. Because of that, we can safely assume that everything the first Apostles received from the Lord, we, as subsequent disciples can receive the same things too.

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Well, that is MUCH clearer. Thank you. I didn't know where you were going at first...

1stcenturylady said:

So did the disciples receive the Holy Spirit when Jesus breathed on them or not? You referred to the whole world not me.

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Do you think that Jesus was being prophetic when He breathed on them? That is quite feasible that He prophesied what was going to happen to them on the Day of Pentecost.

Oscarr said:

Do you think that Jesus was being prophetic when He breathed on them? That is quite feasible that He prophesied what was going to happen to them on the Day of Pentecost.

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No, I believe He was preparing them for the Day of Pentecost. That was quite a day, and when Peter preached, He spoke with boldness, and finally knew what he was preaching. No more weak Peter, denying Jesus.

1stcenturylady said:

Then explain the Acts 4 account. They were the same people who spoke in tongues in Acts 2.

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When the Holy Ghost has filled a person, He stays there. He is a constantly comforter and guide.
However, He still falls upon these same people, who are baptized in the Spirit, over and over. Each subsequent experience of being overwhelmed by the Holy Ghost is not necessarily "receiving" the Holy Ghost. It's just another visitation from Heaven. I have experienced such visitations many times.

Polly, I study the Bible, and ask God a lot of questions. His Word is a tight mosaic of many scriptures, and NONE can contradict another, but just give further insight.

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Me too. I agree. But we need to be careful not to add our explanations to the Word, to try to create teachings that aren't really in there.

1stcenturylady said:

Because you can't take one scripture and ignore the rest. When all are looked at, it was the Trinity, not just one of the godhead.

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Yes, the entire Trinity was present at Christ's resurrection. Just as as his baptism.
HOWEVER. The Son does nothing unless the Father tells Him to.
And the Holy Spirit does the same.
The Father raised up Jesus by the Holy Ghost.

Now, back to where this started from:
If CHRIST be in you, the body is dead because of sin,
BUT the spirit is alive, because of righteousness.

THIS is the condition of one who is living in Romans 7. Paul cried out in torment! Who shall deliver me from this body of death??
I know, you have read this passage the same way all your life... but let yourself see it through new glasses.

Paul did not author the chapter divisions. They did not exist in the original epistle. Look at Romans 7 and 8 as all one passage. That's how it was written.
Neither was there any verse divisions. Nor punctuation. Those were added in the 1300's by MAN.

Just let this passage speak to you:
Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

Whose Spirit was it that raised up Jesus from the dead? You yourself said this verse means the Father raised Jesus from the dead, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
(There is no need to argue over this!)

What these verses are saying, is that when we are born again, we receive Christ into our spirits.
But that's not enough to live triumphantly over sinful flesh.
The flesh is still dead, because of sin.
Read the verse. See how it says that?

And the next verse starts talking about But. There's a HOWEVER, here!

Replace the word "But" with the word "however." It means the same thing.
This is talking about the flesh--the mortal body. The flesh that is dead, which we still wrestle with.

HOWEVER, if the Spirit dwells in you, He will quicken your mortal bodies. Not your immortal bodies. These mortal ones, which feel the pull of sin.

and THEREFORE--(since this is true)--
Therefore, brethren, we owe it to God, to live after the Spirit, instead of after the flesh!