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Svt4Him

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Not only this, but I'm pretty sure the Bible says that if you ask for a loaf of bread God won't give you a stone. And if we who are evil know how to give good gifts, how much more God.

Now to address another point, it is a gift, but you need to ask, sometimes seek. The reason people have to help is there's so much teaching that is contrary to the Bible, that people can limit what they receive or understand, so it's always good to teach. Now I'm pretty sure in the OT there were groups of prophets, and the context suggest it was a learning time, even though it is a gift.
 
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razzelflabben

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It also says knowledge will pass away. Has that happened already? And individual cases are not proof of this.
again, the question is not will it happen, the bible clearly says it will, so if we believe what the bible says, then we believe it will happen. The question is when will it happen. Shall we study the scripture together?
 
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razzelflabben

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I feel like saying something ornery here but an sure it would be taken wrong, so I bite my tongue and move on, I do wish it were possible to be ornery on the forum without offense being taken, ah well, such is life in the world of technology.

God does say that if I ask for a loaf of bread, He won't give a stone, but it doesn't say He will give me a loaf of bread or a specific kind of bread either. It says that He being the good father knows how to give good gifts to us His children. I asked this question on a healing thread and it went unanswered, I'll apply the question to the issue of bread and see if I get an answer. Which is a greater gift, a loaf of bread or the bread of life? You see, what is good is a relative term and in order to understand God here it is important to understand His perspective, His relation to the statement. Now how this statement addresses my claims I still am at a lose, but you brought it up so let's talk about it a bit.

Now, when I want a gift from my husband or parents or children or friends, I don't go asking them for a gift, I either hint at what I want because I know they will be getting me something or I wait patiently hoping they get me what I want because they know me. Of those who actually know me and have taken the time to get to know me, I am never disappointed. The gift is just right, the right fit, the right look, the right need. In fact, those who live farther away, usually give money and say, you know better than I. So if God is the good father, the one who knows us intimately, the one who wants only the best for me, why then would it be necessary for me to tell Him what I need or to have someone else show me how to get what I want from Him. Wouldn't it stand to reason that He would give the gift according to my needs and wants as only He can know? Wouldn't it also stand to reason that He would show me or give me someone to show me how to use that gift properly? Now I have no problem with teaching in fact, the primary gift I have been given is teaching, I love teaching and studying and such, but, that isn't what I hear repeatedly coming from the church on this issue. I don't hear people say, thank you for teaching me about tongues, but rather First of all "thanks again for the help with speaking in tongues back in June! I appreciate it. The gift if just awesome!!" The help is not in teaching what tongues is or how it is used but rather the emphasis is on helping with speaking in tongue or as bold as some who say helping me to speak or learn to speak in tongues. These comments remove it from a gift of God to something that can be learned or taught. This is not consistant with the word of God and the words teaching on tongues. Therefore your comments about teaching are hollow attempts to correct an image that is repeatedly being put forth by the pentecostal/charismatic church. so either the image people paint with their words is wrong, or your comment is a veiled attempt to repaint a picture already painted, dried and evaluated. Which is it? Is the church trying to teach people what God says cannot be taught? Are people just misstating what is going on in the church? Why the discrepancy between what people say and what you are suggesting here?

Now since I know this is likely to label me a cessationalist or anti pentecostal/charismatic, let me refresh your memories that I do believe the gifts are still being used in the church today, I still believe God is active through the gifts, my claim has been throughout that many (note not all) today do not follow the biblical teaching on the gifts today. Thus this is consistant with my claims and not to be altered to say what it does not. Hopefully I covered all the twisting that is readily available to you all.
 
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Svt4Him

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You have totally missed the point of that post, so it's best you do bite your tongue. Someone said they knew someone who had a friend who was married to a guy who was the uncle to a person who asked for tongues and got demon possessed. I don't really care how you define good or if you think it's best to be given the bread of life, demon possession is bad. So if someone goes to God asking for a gift, in your books if they get demon possessed, is that not receiving something bad?

And you don't ask for a gift, that's great. But the Bible says to eagerly desire the best gift, it says to ask seek and knock, so it really means little on how we personally receive gifts from one another.

No I've read what you wrote about a discrepancy again and again. You say you hear people talking about how great the teaching is...I have never heard that. Is that a common thing you hear? Does everyone say it? Can you quote a thread here where someone says it? Otherwise it seems like a veiled attempt to redo a picture already painted. But that aside, there are times when my pastor teaches something amazing. I go to him and have even posted a thread before talking about the amazing thing I learned from my pastor. I don't really know if you are saying this is wrong or not, again I can't totally get the gist of what exactly the point is.

I also think you are saying if God wanted you to have this gift He'd tell you. Do you need more faith? Do you need to edify yourself in spirituals things? Would you want to do works for God like Paul did? If you answer yes to this, this is one why of helping. If you'd like me to post the verses let me know.

again, the question is not will it happen, the bible clearly says it will, so if we believe what the bible says, then we believe it will happen. The question is when will it happen. Shall we study the scripture together?

What, in the context of that verse, are all the things that pass away, and have they? Simple starting place.
 
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icedtea

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My first church had a woman who many times broke out into tongues during worship, and there was always an interpreter.

Years later, at another church, my friend used to just talk in tongues while praying, as a way of just pouring her heart to God without having to think of words.
Thats how i do it at home.
 
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Svt4Him

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Tongues in church is different from a personal prayer language. This can be seen also in the fact there's a gift of faith, yet you have to have salvation faith as well. Salvation faith is what saves you, the gift of faith helps the church.
 
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GuardianShua

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"My first church had a woman who many times broke out into tongues during worship, and there was always an interpreter." And that is the way it should be according to scripture. However the miracle was in the hearing. Because each heared in his own language at the same time. I have never seen that miracle demonstrated in a Chrismatic church. No, not even once, ever.
 
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Svt4Him

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If the miracle is in the hearing, why exactly do we need interpreters? Kind of does away with the fact that one person would need to interpret if the gift really is in the hearing.
 
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AllTalkNoAction

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"My first church had a woman who many times broke out into tongues during worship, and there was always an interpreter." And that is the way it should be according to scripture.
Not according to scripture, God does not want worship interrupted by someone shouting in tongues

1Co:14:32: And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
1Co:14:33: For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Also
1Co:14:27: If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

2 or 3 only, not "many times" and "by course", i.e. one at a time.

However the miracle was in the hearing. Because each heared in his own language at the same time. I have never seen that miracle demonstrated in a Chrismatic church. No, not even once, ever.
No, if I over-heard a crowd of people speaking, I would pick out someone speaking in English.

As I've said before, if I was walking down the Champs Elyses in Paris there would be many voices & sounds but I would pick out someone speaking in English, recognise the words, but this would not mean they were preaching to me!
 
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Svt4Him

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God does not want worship interrupted by someone shouting in tongues
In the Jewish culture, the highest form of worship was reading the Bible. Our culture now makes singing the highest form of worship. Since worship can be so many different things, can not a message in tongues be a form of worship, and if so, how exactly does that interrupt it?
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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Haven't we already dealt with that one before? Tongues are for us to communicate with the Lord here and now. When Jesus comes again, and the perfect church of Christ is revealed, and we are having direct face to face fellowship with the Lord, would it be logical to still have tongues? Are you going to go up to the Lord Jesus Himself and speak to Him in tongues? Anyone with half a brain would be able to work that out!

But while the church is still on earth, in its imperfect state (and don't you tell me that the church is perfect at the moment. You know very well that it is not,) we have been given abilities in the Spirit to communicate with the Lord, for Him to communicate with us, and for us to do the will of God on earth. The next great event for us is the second coming of Christ. We are told in Scripture to occupy ourselves until He comes. Nothing about the gifts of the Spirit will change until then.
 
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AllTalkNoAction

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If the congregation is singing to The Lord, appreciating the words, then someone starts shouting in tongues, how does that not interrupt the worship and cause visitors to think it is silly?
 
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Glenda

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If the congregation is singing to The Lord, appreciating the words, then someone starts shouting in tongues, how does that not interrupt the worship and cause visitors to think it is silly?

For me, music always draws me closely into the presence of God..

And when I am in His presence.. singing & dancing before the Lord of Lords.. worshipping.. there is no distraction.. no interrupting..

If someone interjects with prayer in tongues or receives a word, it just blends into the other expressions of worship..

Of course, my church is a pretty rowdy place at times.. for God is way out of the 'proverbial box'..
 
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AllTalkNoAction

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For me, music always draws me closely into the presence of God..

And when I am in His presence.. singing & dancing before the Lord of Lords.. worshipping.. there is no distraction.. no interrupting..
That's because you have shut the rest of the congregation out, you may as well be at home with the music playing.

I'm talking about communal worship as detailed in the NT (1 Cor. 14) where peope understand what is said.

Dancing is found in the OT, but Jesus sppoke of a time coming when the true worshippers would worship in Spirit and in Truth .. . this is something not found in the OT as the Spirit was not yet given as he is now.

If someone interjects with prayer in tongues or receives a word, it just blends into the other expressions of worship..
It certainly doesn't if you are singing a hymn or a chorus, imagine you are mid-way through, following a train of thought & someone de-rails everyone with what they thing The Lord is saying.

No, you are missing the point that "the spirit of the prophets are subject to the prophets" and "let all things be done decently and in order" (1 Cor. 14:32, 40)

Of course, my church is a pretty rowdy place at times.. for God is way out of the 'proverbial box'..
God was always and is still very specific about how he wants to be worshipped.
God makes his own commandments which work perfectly well when adhered to.

People do what they want and judge that it is God making them do it, well those that want to do that will be drawn to your type of church, those that want to rightly divide the word will be drawn to mine.
 
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AllTalkNoAction

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So is the command to travel to Jerusalem 3 times a year, building stone monuments and many other things.
But it would not be rightly discerning God's will to say that those things and raising hands are how God wants to be worshipped today.

You need to understand that those old covenant things were to people that were only natural, they didn't have the Spirit, what they did was a "foreshadow", the substance is worshipping "in spirit and in truth".
 
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Svt4Him

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If the congregation is singing to The Lord, appreciating the words, then someone starts shouting in tongues, how does that not interrupt the worship and cause visitors to think it is silly?


So if someone has a word in tongues, all of a sudden someone starts singing then you can say singing is out of order? I agree we should stop singing, don't like it much anyway. And you are talking about visitors, my friend was in a group and someone said a word in tongues, which was he heard in his native tongue. The word told him to go home right away and when he did he received a very important phone call.
 
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