Speaking in Tongues as Foreign Language

[gilliger]

In Isaiah 28 also speaks of stammering lips and another tongue, the stammering lips together with another tongue explains the holy spirit prayer language pentecostals receive in the baptism of the spirit. You can't pick out a couple words of a verse and forget the rest of the verse to make a point of reference or interpratation. look up the word stammering: (to speak with involuntary breaks and pauses, or with spasmodic repetitions of syllables or sounds).

I didn't take that out of context. The Hebrew people used to mock the foreign or barbarian nations by saying that their speech sounded like stuttering or stammering because they did not understand it. God was going to punish Israel by prophesying a future captivity by foreigners since they wouldn't listen to their own prophets.

Also, I know what stammering means, but the word translated stammering in the KJV does not mean stammering, it means "mocking or foreign." The word is "La`eg" in Hebrew.

Paul's usage of heteroglossais is important too for all that means is "another tongue or language." If we are to use the language and context of Isaiah as proof, then it only proves that Paul is talking about foreign languages...not an "unknown tongue" which incidentally, as a phrase, does not occur in the NT either.

 

[stormdancer0]

Why would anyone get on a Pentecostal forum and try to argue against Pentecostal doctrine?

No teachings contrary to the beliefs tacked to the top of the forum, I believe, is a primary rule on these forums. It only serves to cause dissension. I have one piece of advice. If you don't want to speak in tongues and pray in the Spirit, DON'T.

But don't think you can get on a forum of people who've been touched by God and tell us not to express that in the way God gave us, just because you can't understand it, and are not satisfied with the scriptural evidence.

 

[lilmissmontana]

I have nothing to contribute ... I know gilliger's been here before and knows the rules, however, I saw another new face so wanted to remind should probably check out the rules ... things like only fellowship and questions if you're not Pentecostal, etc ... God bless, everyone!

Why would anyone get on a Pentecostal forum and try to argue against Pentecostal doctrine?

No teachings contrary to the beliefs tacked to the top of the forum, I believe, is a primary rule on these forums. It only serves to cause dissension. I have one piece of advice. If you don't want to speak in tongues and pray in the Spirit, DON'T.

But don't think you can get on a forum of people who've been touched by God and tell us not to express that in the way God gave us, just because you can't understand it, and are not satisfied with the scriptural evidence.

Amen, sister!

He knows the rules ... been down this road before ...

http://www.christianforums.com/t7436629-5/

 

[stormdancer0]

Oh, yeah. I'd forgotten this poster. Well, that just solves everything. He can go away feeling justified, because it was just "those women" speaking when they should be silent, and we were right.

See, everyone is happy!!

 

[lilmissmontana]

Oh, yeah. I'd forgotten this poster. Well, that just solves everything. He can go away feeling justified, because it was just "those women" speaking when they should be silent, and we were right.

See, everyone is happy!!

God is good, eh?!!!

 

[gilliger]

Why would anyone get on a Pentecostal forum and try to argue against Pentecostal doctrine?

No teachings contrary to the beliefs tacked to the top of the forum, I believe, is a primary rule on these forums. It only serves to cause dissension. I have one piece of advice. If you don't want to speak in tongues and pray in the Spirit, DON'T.

But don't think you can get on a forum of people who've been touched by God and tell us not to express that in the way God gave us, just because you can't understand it, and are not satisfied with the scriptural evidence.

I just want one of you to answer my questions...you never do. I wish you would be honest with the evidence instead of going off of your feelings. Truth comes from the word, not from an experience.

 

[Christ's_Warrior]

As a member of the Ancient (Assyrian) Church of the East we have preserved the native tongue of Christ, the term tongue in Aramaic or modern syriac is "Lishaneh" which specifically means "Languages".

If you are not praying in another language, then you are not praying in tongues.

Sorry.

 

[lilmissmontana]

I just want one of you to answer my questions...you never do. I wish you would be honest with the evidence instead of going off of your feelings. Truth comes from the word, not from an experience.

Perhaps your questions are answered ... perhaps they just don't suit you ... or perhaps that's not it at all ... as I read this post of yours this is what came to mind ...

Proverbs 3:5,6,7

Trust in the Lord with all thine heart;
and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him,
and he shall direct your paths.
Be not wise in thine own eyes:
fear, the Lord, and depart from evil.

any court in the land knows 'evidence' can be 'tampered' with ... the Holy Spirit is never wrong ...

jmo

 

[lilmissmontana]

If you are not praying in another language, then you are not praying in tongues. Sorry.

This is where I stand. I believe we may never know all the 'tongues' as far as what language they are ... but I do know they are a language.


just food for thought ...

I used to study with a husband and wife pastors on TV until the station cut them off. Pastors Gene and Melissa Scott ... These two each know an amazing amount of languages (I believe something like 25 languages)... not just the language ... but they can take any scripture you give them and translate it in Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, Spanish and a whole host of others ... then they can break it down to the bare essentials of spellings, isms, phonics rules ... anything you want ... another Pastor ... Arnold Murray has the same ability ... maybe not to the extent ... but far beyond the 'normal' ... it's my thought that this is also a gift of tongues ... they can understand, speak, and interpret to an amazing diversity of languaged peoples all at once ... on their show they had three big huge marker boards ... they always did what they were teaching in at least five languages ... all three boards would literally be covered with writing and it might only be on three or four verses ...

more food for thought ... have you wondered how the witnesses will minister to the WHOLE world all at once and every one will hear in their own language ... to me, it's simple ... the computer can translate into every language ... any one you want ... as you're hearing it ... I know many don't have computers ... but by then ... maybe it will be 'mandatory' ...

I'm guessing there is a whole lot more to tongues than any one who is 'knowledged' about will ever know before jesus gets here ... I wonder if He really cares what language you speak to Him in ... maybe He would prefer we talk with our heart ...

Ecclesiastes 12:12,13
the whole duty of man

And further, by these, my son, be
admonished: of making many books
there is no end: and much study is
weariness of the flesh.
Let us hear the conclusion of the
whole matter: Fear God, and keep
his commandments: for this is the
whole duty of man.

jmo
lilmiss

 

[Christ's_Warrior]

I used to study with a husband and wife pastors on TV until the station cut them off. Pastors Gene and Melissa Scott ... These two each know an amazing amount of languages (I believe something like 25 languages)... not just the language ... but they can take any scripture you give them and translate it in Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, Spanish and a whole host of others ... then they can break it down to the bare essentials of spellings, isms, phonics rules ... anything you want ... another Pastor ... Arnold Murray has the same ability ... maybe not to the extent ... but far beyond the 'normal' ... it's my thought that this is also a gift of tongues ... they can understand, speak, and interpret to an amazing diversity of languaged peoples all at once ... on their show they had three big huge marker boards ... they always did what they were teaching in at least five languages ... all three boards would literally be covered with writing and it might only be on three or four verses ...

Now that is the gift of tongues!!!

 

[stormdancer0]

I just want one of you to answer my questions...you never do. I wish you would be honest with the evidence instead of going off of your feelings. Truth comes from the word, not from an experience.

The answers we give you are never enough - because you do not want to believe that you could be wrong. Thus, you are here only to cause trouble. This is the job of the adversary, thus you are doing his work. I'd love to be able to convince you, but only God can do that.

As a member of the Ancient (Assyrian) Church of the East we have preserved the native tongue of Christ, the term tongue in Aramaic or modern syriac is "Lishaneh" which specifically means "Languages".

If you are not praying in another language, then you are not praying in tongues.

Sorry.

So the fact that you are a member of the Assyrian (Babylonian) church makes you an expert on speaking in tongues?

So, the word means Languages. What's your point? When I pray in the Spirit, I never said I wasn't praying in another language. When my friend Lynn prays in the Spirit, it often comes out french, even though she doesn't know french. I am praying in a language I don't know. My heart knows what I am trying to say, as does my God, and His Spirit in me. That's all that matters.

As I said, if you don't want to speak in tongues, and don't believe in it, don't do it.

 

[Cribstyl]

Right, Luke described historically what happened: namely, that a group of men who had never studied certain languages before, inspired by God, could speak perfectly coherent language.

That is a reasonbly response to Act 2

This is the same in the later stories in Acts too. There is no evidence from Luke that there were other types of tongues. It makes much more sense to look at Paul's words through that interpretation, rather than using his description (written to Christians who had asked questions that we don't have) to understand Luke's words.

If what you say is truth, then post 1 incedent of tongues after Act 2 that proves that tongue was exclussively another language.

Do you not believe Luke's account was inspired?

Yes, but his account does not give the church all the details about the gift of tongues.

 

[brinny]

i was attending this church and everyone in the congregation began praying in tongues, out loud. it was bedlam.

 

[gilliger]

Our voice is working, but our mind is inactive. They've even proven it with CAT scans and MRI's. When we are praying in the Spirit, the language area of our brain is not active.

I really would like to be able to read about these studies. Where can I check them out?

 

[Builder_Bob]

I didn't take that out of context. The Hebrew people used to mock the foreign or barbarian nations by saying that their speech sounded like stuttering or stammering because they did not understand it. God was going to punish Israel by prophesying a future captivity by foreigners since they wouldn't listen to their own prophets.

Also, I know what stammering means, but the word translated stammering in the KJV does not mean stammering, it means "mocking or foreign." The word is "La`eg" in Hebrew.

Paul's usage of heteroglossais is important too for all that means is "another tongue or language." If we are to use the language and context of Isaiah as proof, then it only proves that Paul is talking about foreign languages...not an "unknown tongue" which incidentally, as a phrase, does not occur in the NT either.

Isaiah 28:11-16 (King James Version)



11For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
14Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
15Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: 16Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.



Verse 16 plainly shows this message to be a prophesy concerning the new testament baptism of the spirit of acts 2


I gave you the english meaning of stammering from dictionary.com to a english word in the KJV bible which is a english written bible written for a english king. which is the same as what you found in the word (foreign which also means unknown language, or from another country, in which Christ said my kingdom wasn't from this world. So the prayer language of the holy spirit is not of this world so you get the word foreign from the meaning of stammering. Who are you to say the pray language is not a language, whether it be uninterpatable by mans wisdom?

 

[stormdancer0]

I really would like to be able to read about these studies. Where can I check them out?

I'm sure they are on a website somewhere. I saw it on National Geographic, which is strange, because they are usually non-Christian, if not anti-Christian, in a lot of their programing. I'll see if I can find it.

 

[Cribstyl]

The incident in Acts 10 with Cornelius and the other Gentile converts is an illustration of this in verses 44-46. The phrase used is that they "spoke in tongues." As Christ's_Warrior already pointed out, the word tongues is another way to say languages. Also, in Acts 11:15 Peter explains to the Jerusalem council that when he met up with Cornelius and those in his household that spoke in tongues that it was the same occurrence as in the beginning...in other words the same as the incident at Pentecost.

#1.The case with Cornelius, shows Cornelius and Peter talking back and forth in a common language from Act 10:25-45. Was there a language issue?
#2. Another significant difference is; was it not the Apostles speaking in "other tongues" in Acts 2? (which implied "other" languages) ....This time it was the Gentiles speaking in tongues to God not in a language to edify the apostles.

The text in Act 10 says
Act 10:46For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

#3. What language(s) do you think the apostles heard the Gentiles speak in?

Also, you're right that Paul does expound on tongues more that Luke, but instead of understanding Paul's words in the context of what Luke writes about, his words are misinterpreted to talk about ecstatic language.

Luke was a fellowlabourer of Paul, Yes, he was annointed to give us a timeline from the ministry of John the Baptist, through the cross and to the Gospel taught to Gentiles by Paul's ministery.

Jesus appeared to Paul and sent him to preach and teach doctrines to the church.
Two different ministries to feeds our spirit. We find harmony not contradiction.

Here is an understanding of tongues you should hold as doctrine;
1Cr 14:2For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

 

[Cribstyl]

I just want one of you to answer my questions...you never do. I wish you would be honest with the evidence instead of going off of your feelings. Truth comes from the word, not from an experience.

1Cr 14:2For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

#1. Your assesment of what Luke wrote is debatable.
#2. You dont want to accept the extensive doctrinal teachings by Paul as the understanding given on this subject.

"for no man understandeth" implies it's not an earthly language that any man can interpret.

 

[gilliger]

Verse 16 plainly shows this message to be a prophesy concerning the new testament baptism of the spirit of acts 2

I gave you the english meaning of stammering from dictionary.com to a english word in the KJV bible which is a english written bible written for a english king. which is the same as what you found in the word (foreign which also means unknown language, or from another country, in which Christ said my kingdom wasn't from this world. So the prayer language of the holy spirit is not of this world so you get the word foreign from the meaning of stammering. Who are you to say the pray language is not a language, whether it be uninterpatable by mans wisdom?

I don't see how verse 16 "plainly shows" a prophesy of NT baptism in the spirit. It does reference Jesus as the "cornerstone," but there is no direct correlation to spirit baptism.

What I'm trying to explain is that you cannot prove from Isaiah that the foreign language is jibberish...in that context it is an actual language. You have read your understanding of what tongues is into the text and ignored the context.

 

[stormdancer0]

I am grateful that I do not have to explain God's actions to you or anyone else, gilliger. I don't know why He chose to give this gift to me. I know that it is a gift from God. I know I have spoken in tongues unknown to anyone who was present at that time. I know that you likely may never believe this because you must have tangible proof that you can understand, and my God is not one who gives proof before belief, but waits for us to believe in faith, THEN offers proof. And He is not one to explain himself to non-believers.