Speaking and praying in tongues? Real or fake?

[Hillsage]

.

Your USERNAME has always intrigued me as to it's meaning and whether there was any kind of Charismatic subliminal implication accompanying the obvious. I'm now assuming, No...????

Question. What is tongues?

Depends on who you ask. If you're speaking of 'unbiblical' babble/gibberish then you are talking the languages of man since the tower of Babel. IOW today it would be the equivalent of ENGLISH, SPANISH, HEBREW etc. Though we may not know 'just exactly' which 'languages of men' came after Babel. But we do know that the loss of that original "one language" prevented their unity to be able to accomplish anything they "imagined/planned/purposed".

GEN 11:6 And the LORD said, "Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language; and this is only the beginning of what they will do; and nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them.

Is it a strange new language?

The prayer tongue of my spirit speaking to God....was a 'new language' to me.....46 years ago. And it is still just as 'new' every time I use it...even as His repeated "mercies are 'new' every morning".

is it speaking in another language?

I believe so. It is the heavenly/spiritual language of my spirit when I'm praying in tongues to God. And it is the earthly languages of men when it comes from the Holy Spirit and is 'to' men. Both of which took place on the day of Pentecost.

Or is it speaking in the original language all of humanity spoke before babel?

That is another opinion I've heard preached before also. But, that opinion just doesn't 'teach' as well as it does 'preach'. I'm not saying it is wrong, I don't know.

On the day of Pentecost they all heard what was said in their own tongue. How? IMO it is because we all have that original language deep inside and it gives voice when the Holy spirit is present.

There is no 'gift of hearing' in 1Cor 12 for unbelievers, so I'm of the persuasion that the disciples spoke, even as Paul wrote, in the tongues of men....and of angels on the day of Pentecost. Angelic spiritual tongues from their spirit first and then tongues of men as Holy Spirit manifestations through 'them' second.

 

[YeshuaFan]

I can see speaking in tongues as spreading the "Good News" to those who have a different language than you and a sign to the unbeliever. But I can not grasp it as a genuine prayer language. Yes, yes, I know Paul talks about it however, I think he is basically saying, if you want to speak sounds into the air where no one understands you and you could possibly look foolish to others while doing it, then do it on your own time and not in the congregation. I believe Paul was dealing with a wild group, the Corinthians, possibly fresh out of Pagan practices who soaked in ecstatic utterances as part of their worship before they became Christian. So he probably did not know who was genuine and who was not. He simply said, take your utterances to the Lord privately if there is no interpreter. (By the way, I believe an interpreter is actually someone in the room who knows the language you are speaking in.)

Paul also said, why would you pray without your understanding?? I say that too? Why would I spew out unintelligible words that I do not understand? How will my Lord know my supplications? How will He hear my praises of thanks? Do really need this type of edification? If so, why do I need to be edified in this manner? Would my time be better served helping the poor? Or, studying the scriptures to show myself approved unto God?

1 Corinthians 14:15
So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding.

I only pray with my understanding. It is much more fruitful.
Blessings

BTW: I spoke in tongues upon conversion in the early 80's. If God wants to use my gift, I believe He will to spread the Gospel.

There was no personal prayer tongue language in the Bible, and when someone had the real gift of tongues, was speaking forth in unknown to them but a real human language!

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

There was no personal prayer tongue language in the Bible, and when someone had the real gift of tongues, was speaking forth in unknown to them but a real human language!

Look at the OP quotes.

Paul said he used this gift more than any of them, but not in others' hearing, because it was not intelligible/edifying.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

You have just caused me to rethink my opinion. If Cessationists can indeed walk in the fruit of the Holy Spirit, then are we to assume that they can also walk in the gifts of the Holy Spirit? If such an assumption is true than what reason is there to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, in your opinion?

I have walked into a place where three of us praying in tongues and naming the name of Jesus, might just as well have been playing bag pipes, as you said. But, as it turns out, the demon we couldn't deal with was a 'spirit of python'. And during the 45 minute ordeal, two of us later testified that we both felt the Spirit said you haven't prayed or fasted enough. That was my first ever demonic manifestation experience. Several weeks later, the gal we failed with, asked to speak with me after home group one night. She told me she went through another deliverance session with two women in the deliverance ministry. She said they discerned the python spirit and didn't have enough authority either....not until they got a third person involved were they able to cast it out. It was several years later, while dealing with a young Mexican man I was disciplining that I learned a python spirit has the power to "kill" and that's the most authoritative demon. It's power trumps the power to "steal and destroy". This young man had an uncle he grew up with in Mexico who was a Brujo in the Santeria (black witch in Mexican Catholic voo doo). He was the one who told me the truth of the Luke 10:19 verse. He said that "(spiritual) serpents " have the power to kill and the "(spiritual) scorpions" only have the power to torture. When he told me that, Revelation also came to a new 'enlightened truth' for me.

REV 9:10 They have tails like scorpions, and stings, and their power of hurting men for five months lies in their tails.

As for Paul's viper/snake experience, I no longer believe it has anything to do with him 'handling or taking up' a serpent in the context that Jesus was speaking of, personally.

When Jesus was baptized, he was anointed like an Old Testament prophet with Isaiah 11:2 qualities. I do not think praying in tongues was available until after Pentecost started. There is old and new wine.

A cessationist can ask for the gift of tongues, and if bearing the fruit of the Spirit first, would more likely want it, and knowledge and healings...

I am still thinking about the difference between receiving the Spirit, the Christ and the Father's heart blessing. I am a bit puzzled.

In spiritual warfare there are things like Jesus' powerful blood, the sword of God's word, empowered by oil or fire, Jesus name, God's finger, angelic presence, knowledge and wisdom gifts for strategy. Method of authority.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

I have added this verse to the OP
Act 1:8 but ye shall receive power at the coming of the Holy Spirit upon you, and ye shall be witnesses to me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and unto the end of the earth.'

Peter and John never made it to the Maoris in New Zealand, Philip probably didn't either. I think Thomas went to India as the farthest traveller.

So this verse is for us, and has been applied by predecessors. Power does not mean, receive the Holy Spirit or Christ. Power from the Holy Spirit is a separate issue. One blessing is for personal salvation, gives the fruit of the Spirit, Galatians 5:22. And the oil, is His presence with power hidden in it for service. The vocal gifts are for both, but mainly for others, and healing too. Although a healing gifts persist in manifestation only as long as you the sick one does not sin.

Seeing one or yourself being healed is a sign Jesus is alive and then comes witnessing to it.

 

[swordsman1]

Look at the OP quotes.

Paul said he used this gift more than any of them, but not in others' hearing, because it was not intelligible/edifying.

That doesn't mean Paul spoke in a non-human language. The reason he didn't speak in untranslated tongues in the assembly was because there would be people there who did not understand the language spoken and so not be edified. As would be the case if he spoke say Persian in a small Greek house church.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

That doesn't mean Paul spoke in a non-human language. The reason he didn't speak in untranslated tongues in the assembly was because there would be people there who did not understand the language spoken and so not be edified. As would be the case if he spoke say Persian in a small Greek house church.

There is no account in Acts or the letters in which Paul speaks a language he does not know in a foreign region, and they understand and he does not.

A prayer language is better if the evil spirits do not understand.

 

[swordsman1]

There is no account in Acts or the letters in which Paul speaks a language he does not know in a foreign region, and they understand and he does not.

A prayer language is better if the evil spirits do not understand.

Nor is there any account of Paul or anyone else speaking a non-human language anywhere in scripture. There is only one description of tongues in scripture, Acts 2. In the absence of any redefinition it must be presumed that all subsequent references to the gift are the same thing.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Nor is there any account of Paul or anyone else speaking a non-human language anywhere in scripture. There is only one description of tongues in scripture, Acts 2. In the absence of any redefinition it must be presumed that all subsequent references to the gift are the same thing.

In the OP I quote a thorough list of scriptures on the matter to consider all at the same time. It mentions angelic tongues. Angels are remarkable, wise beyond understanding and equipped and fed by God, with access to all knowledge. Dark angels are not as numerable or strong, but are extremely shrewd and patient. They can decipher a tongue, but angelic tongues I estimate, is beyond them. So they cannot counter plan a prayer.

 

[swordsman1]

In the OP I quote a thorough list of scriptures on the matter to consider all at the same time. It mentions angelic tongues. Angels are remarkable, wise beyond understanding and equipped and fed by God, with access to all knowledge. Dark angels are not as numerable or strong, but are extremely shrtheewd and patient. They can decipher a tongue, but angelic tongues I estimate, is beyond them. So they cannot counter plan a prayer.

Neither Paul nor anyone else spoke in the tongues of angels. Let’s look at the verse in context:

1 Cor 13:1-3 "If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing."​

Paul uses five conditional IF statements in 1 Cor 13:1-3 which were both hypothetical (they were imagined scenarios) AND hyperbole (the imagined scenarios were wildly exaggerated examples of each gift) - to make the point that even having spiritual gifts to the highest conceivable degree would be worthless without love:

- tongues, even to the degree of speaking the language of angels...

- the gift of prophecy even to the degree of knowing ALL mysteries and ALL knowledge (ie becoming omniscient)...

- the gift of faith even to the degree of removing mountains...

- the gift of giving even to the degree of giving up ALL your possessions...

- and even giving up your own life...

....would all be to no avail without love.

None of those exaggerated hypothetical examples represent the normal operation of those gifts. Paul is saying that even if someone had the gift of tongues to such an superlative degree that they spoke in the language of angels, but didn't have love, it would be worthless to them.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Neither Paul nor anyone else spoke in the tongues of angels. Let’s look at the verse in context:

1 Cor 13:1-3 "If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing."​

Paul uses five conditional IF statements in 1 Cor 13:1-3 which were both hypothetical (they were imagined scenarios) AND hyperbole (the imagined scenarios were wildly exaggerated examples of each gift) - to make the point that even having spiritual gifts to the highest conceivable degree would be worthless without love:

- tongues, even to the degree of speaking the language of angels...

- the gift of prophecy even to the degree of knowing ALL mysteries and ALL knowledge (ie becoming omniscient)...

- the gift of faith even to the degree of removing mountains...

- the gift of giving even to the degree of giving up ALL your possessions...

- and even giving up your own life...

....would all be to no avail without love.

None of those exaggerated hypothetical examples represent the normal operation of those gifts. Paul is saying that even if someone had the gift of tongues to such an superlative degree that they spoke in the language of angels, but didn't have love, it would be worthless to them.

That is a misinterpretation, it is not hyperbole. The tongues of men and angels were both possible. Prophecy could search deep and far, and when in Heaven we will have access to all wisdom and knowledge. Paul briefly was in the light of Heaven, beginning with meeting Jesus the Lord after he was glorified.

Jesus taught that if we have faith the size of a mustard seed that we could move mountains. God can move literal mountains, we can have more faith than that, but we need to move inner mountains and drive out difficult demons and heal major illnesses rather than make way for roads. Mountains can figuratively mean governments.

Peter eventually completely left behind his fishing business, and people actually did sell out and lay that money at Peter's feet and Peter distributed it among them all. And in Rome, people were actually burned at the stake. These were extremes, but not exaggerations.

YLT
Col 2:2 that their hearts may be comforted, being united in love, and to all riches of the full assurance of the understanding, to the full knowledge of the secret of the God and Father, and of the Christ,
Col 2:3 in whom are all the treasures of the wisdom and the knowledge hid,

Eph 3:16 that He may give to you, according to the riches of His glory, with might to be strengthened through His Spirit, in regard to the inner man,
Eph 3:17 that the Christ may dwell through the faith in your hearts, in love having been rooted and founded,
Eph 3:18 that ye may be in strength to comprehend, with all the saints, what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height,
Eph 3:19 to know also the love of the Christ that is exceeding the knowledge, that ye may be filled—to all the fulness of God;
Eph 3:20 and to Him who is able above all things to do exceeding abundantly what we ask or think, according to the power that is working in us,

So even in this life are great riches of knowledge.

 

[swordsman1]

That is a misinterpretation, it is not hyperbole. The tongues of men and angels were both possible. Prophecy could search deep and far, and when in Heaven we will have access to all wisdom and knowledge.

Jesus taught that if we have faith the size of a mustard seed that we could move mountains. God can move literal mountains, we can have more faith than that, but we need to move inner mountains and drive out difficult demons and heal major illnesses rather than make way for roads. Mountains can figuratively mean governments.

Peter eventually completely left behind his fishing business, and people actually did sell out and lay that money at Peter's feet and Peter distributed it among them all. And in Rome, people were actually burned at the stake. These were extremes, but not exaggerations.

YLT
Col 2:2 that their hearts may be comforted, being united in love, and to all riches of the full assurance of the understanding, to the full knowledge of the secret of the God and Father, and of the Christ,
Col 2:3 in whom are all the treasures of the wisdom and the knowledge hid,

Eph 3:16 that He may give to you, according to the riches of His glory, with might to be strengthened through His Spirit, in regard to the inner man,
Eph 3:17 that the Christ may dwell through the faith in your hearts, in love having been rooted and founded,
Eph 3:18 that ye may be in strength to comprehend, with all the saints, what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height,
Eph 3:19 to know also the love of the Christ that is exceeding the knowledge, that ye may be filled—to all the fulness of God;
Eph 3:20 and to Him who is able above all things to do exceeding abundantly what we ask or think, according to the power that is working in us,

So even in this life are great riches of knowledge.

Nobody has ever literally removed a mountain. Jesus was exaggerating just as Paul is here.

Is the normal practice of the gift of prophecy to be omniscient?

Is the normal practice of the gift of giving to give away ALL that you own, even the clothes on your back? Or even give up your own life?

Of course not, nor was the normal practice of the gift of tongues to speak the language of angels. They were all hypothetical exaggerated examples to make the point that even having gifts to the highest conceivable degree would be worthless without love.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Nobody has ever literally removed a mountain. Jesus was exaggerating just as Paul is here.

Is the normal practice of the gift of prophecy to be omniscient?

Is the normal practice of the gift of giving to give away ALL that you own, even the clothes on your back? Or even give up your own life?

Of course not, nor was the normal practice of the gift of tongues to speak the language of angels. They were all hypothetical exaggerated examples to make the point that even having gifts to the highest conceivable degree would be worthless without love.

I do not agree. Nobody can move a mountain, only God can. But Paul turned Rome upside down, a great culture with extremes, and it's government. I am surprised Paul did not repeat perform with Nero and blind him until he repented. As with the sorcerer in Acts.

Prophecy is not omniscient, but in the next life we have heightened senses and access to all wisdom and knowledge, this does not make us omniscient but that is not exactly what Paul was saying.

Sadly for Romans who wanted wholeness and righteousness, they came to love Jesus, and became just, but then were expected to lose all, even their shirts and suffer torture and death, sometimes perhaps by fire.

 

[swordsman1]

Is the normal practice of the gift of prophecy to be omniscient?
Is the normal practice of the gift of faith to remove mountains?
Is the normal practice of the gift of giving to give away ALL that you own?
Is the normal practice of the gift of giving to give up your own life?

If not then neither is the normal practice to the gift of tongues to speak the language of angels.

Paul was using exaggerated examples to make the point that having gifts even to the highest degree conceivable is worthless without love.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Is the normal practice of the gift of prophecy to be omniscient?
Is the normal practice of the gift of faith to remove mountains?
Is the normal practice of the gift of giving to give away ALL that you own?
Is the normal practice of the gift of giving to give up your own life?

If not then neither is the normal practice to the gift of tongues to speak the language of angels.

Paul was using exaggerated examples to make the point that having gifts even to the highest degree conceivable is worthless without love.

No, Paul was speaking about the extremes, not the normal. And only God is omniscient, Paul did not mention this. We no longer render all we own to the bishop.

Your logic does not follow.

 

[swordsman1]

No, Paul was speaking about the extremes, not the normal. And only God is omniscient, Paul did not mention this. We no longer render all we own to the bishop.

Your logic does not follow.

Exactly. All those examples were hypothetical extremes. They are not the normal everyday operations of those gifts.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Exactly. All those examples were hypothetical extremes. They are not the normal everyday operations of those gifts.

I think they were real extremes, not hypothetical. Not normal. The believers faith moved the mountain of Rome and there is no more draconian punishment.

 

[swordsman1]

I think they were real extremes, not hypothetical. Not normal. The believers faith moved the mountain of Rome and there is no more draconian punishment.

I'm not saying Paul's hypothetical examples are impossible. All things are possible with God. But there is no evidence that anyone literally removed a mountain, or literally became omniscient, or literally spoke in the tongues of angels. The others 2 were certainly possible albeit very extreme, but none of the 5 examples are the normal operation of those gifts. So we cannot say that what Pentecostals and charismatics routinely do today is speaking in the tongues of angels. The normal operation of the gift of tongues was miraculously speaking foreign human languages.

 

[YeshuaFan]

When Jesus was baptized, he was anointed like an Old Testament prophet with Isaiah 11:2 qualities. I do not think praying in tongues was available until after Pentecost started. There is old and new wine.

A cessationist can ask for the gift of tongues, and if bearing the fruit of the Spirit first, would more likely want it, and knowledge and healings...

I am still thinking about the difference between receiving the Spirit, the Christ and the Father's heart blessing. I am a bit puzzled.

In spiritual warfare there are things like Jesus' powerful blood, the sword of God's word, empowered by oil or fire, Jesus name, God's finger, angelic presence, knowledge and wisdom gifts for strategy. Method of authority.

Jesus was God, so was not like another OT prophet!

 

[Pneuma3]

Your USERNAME has always intrigued me as to it's meaning and whether there was any kind of Charismatic subliminal implication accompanying the obvious. I'm now assuming, No...????

You lost me here Hill, what is it you are asking?

Depends on who you ask. If you're speaking of 'unbiblical' babble/gibberish then you are talking the languages of man since the tower of Babel. IOW today it would be the equivalent of ENGLISH, SPANISH, HEBREW etc. Though we may not know 'just exactly' which 'languages of men' came after Babel. But we do know that the loss of that original "one language" prevented their unity to be able to accomplish anything they "imagined/planned/purposed".

GEN 11:6 And the LORD said, "Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language; and this is only the beginning of what they will do; and nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them.

Yes but I was not talking about the babel that came afterword but the one language they spoke before which I believe is a spiritual language which when heard is understood by all that hear it.

The prayer tongue of my spirit speaking to God....was a 'new language' to me.....46 years ago. And it is still just as 'new' every time I use it...even as His repeated "mercies are 'new' every morning".

New to YOU, but not knew in the sense that no one else had ever spoken it before.

I believe so. It is the heavenly/spiritual language of my spirit when I'm praying in tongues to God. And it is the earthly languages of men when it comes from the Holy Spirit and is 'to' men. Both of which took place on the day of Pentecost.

agree it is a spiritual language and ones spirit must be atoned to the spirit to hear it..

That is another opinion I've heard preached before also. But, that opinion just doesn't 'teach' as well as it does 'preach'. I'm not saying it is wrong, I don't know.

Neither am I brother it is just the way I see, but am not dogmatic about it.

There is no 'gift of hearing' in 1Cor 12 for unbelievers, so I'm of the persuasion that the disciples spoke, even as Paul wrote, in the tongues of men....and of angels on the day of Pentecost. Angelic spiritual tongues from their spirit first and then tongues of men as Holy Spirit manifestations through 'them' second.

He that has ears to hear let him hear.....
The unbeliever is not atoned to the spiritual language or original language until the presence of the Holy spirit.