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Speak in Tongues - essential :

Marvin Knox

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And what were these wonderful works of God? Answer....Peter explains it in the next set of verses. Which means the wonderful works of God is the Gospel.
In Acts chapter 3 Luke uses "walking and leaping and praising God" when a man is healed. Yet no such statement in Acts 2.
Now thaaats a stretch.

About the time I think I might have to work at this a bit - you put your foot in it.

" Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved."

"One day Peter and John were going up to the temple at the time of prayer—at three in the afternoon."
 
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Waggles

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False. The spurious nature of the Longer Ending is a simple recognition of its absence in the manuscript tradition, and is recognized regardless of theological tradition, denomination, or religious background.
And yet both Ivan Panin and John Bullinger are able to prove all of the original Hebrew and Greek texts
through applying Bible Numerics [gematria] including Mark 16:15-20
The last word Amen is I think from memory additional.

Bible Numerics proves beyond doubt the authenticity of the last verses of Mark. The intricate and
numerous mathematical values of 7 are interwoven throughout the enter passage.
It is as valid as Genesis 1:1.
 
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redleghunter

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Only by unbelievers denying the anointing of the Holy Spirit as originally preached by Jesus and the
Apostles.
Evidence of the work of the anti-Christ; mutilate the parchments and scrolls containing the word of
God and substitute the word with another gospel.
I'm interested in your view of which manuscript tradition you follow.

Does it also include the Trinitarian Johannine Comma?
 
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ViaCrucis

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Can you quote me the verses. Thanks.

In the Acts of the Apostles it uses the word dorea to refer to the giving of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:38 - λήμψεσθε τὴν δωρεὰν τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος ("you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit")
Acts 8:20 - ὅτι τὴν δωρεὰν τοῦ θεοῦ ἐνόμισας ("because you have thought the gift of God")
Acts 11:17 - τὴν ἴσην δωρεὰν ἔδωκεν αὐτοῖς ("the like gift as given to us")

It is also used by St. Paul in reference to God's generosity in our salvation,

Romans 5:15 - καὶ ἡ δωρεὰ ἐν χάριτι ("and the gift by grace")
Romans 5:17 - καὶ τῆς δωρεᾶς τῆς δικαιοσύνης ("and the gift of righteousness")
Ephesians 3:7 - κατὰ τὴν δωρεὰν τῆς χάριτος ("by the gift of the grace")

Dorea refers to something given, bestowed, granted; God giving us His Holy Spirit, God giving us salvation, giving us the righteousness of Jesus, etc.

When referring to the gifts of the Spirit, the use of charisma/charismata (χάρισμα/χαρίσματα) is used; literally "grace/graces", this refers to many things, but in 1 Corinthians 12 the Apostle uses πνευματικῶν (pneumatikon) "spirituals" in reference to the expressions, gifts, and manifestation of the Spirit--he speaks of graces (χαρισμάτων charismaton), administrations (διακονιῶν diakonion), operations (ἐνεργημάτων energematon), and manifestations (φανέρωσις phanerosis).

So there is a distinction in language here, but the implication that the tongues of Acts 2 are "dorea" and therefore different than the tongues of 1 Corinthians 12 (being "charismata") is a false dichotomy, the use of dorea in Acts typically refers to the gift of the Holy Spirit Himself, the giving or bequeathing of the Spirit; whereas in 1 Corinthians 12 it is speaking of the spiritual things of the Spirit operating through the Church as graces, operations, administrations, manifestations (etc). The former refers to God's bequeathing of the Spirit, the latter is the working of the Spirit in the life of the Church in the diversity-in-unity of Christ's Body. These are not comparable things.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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And yet both Ivan Panin and John Bullinger are able to prove all of the original Hebrew and Greek texts
through applying Bible Numerics [gematria] including Mark 16:15-20
The last word Amen is I think from memory additional.

I don't subscribe to "Bible magic", so trying to use it as an argument is a non-starter.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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DamianWarS

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Thanks. Comparing both verses and the context clearly shows the 3000 on the day of Pentecost did not receive "charisma." Meaning dorea is used in Acts 2:38 as simply "gift."

they did receive charisma if they received salvation. Rom 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the [charisma] of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
 
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Marvin Knox

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The sounds made at Pentecost were real languages-not chirpings, howling's, barkings, gruntings, snarlings and yowls. Neither are the people at Pentecost described as losing control of themselves, dropping to the floor and rolling on the ground. Speaking In Tongues EXPOSED!
Nor has anyone said that they were.

Nor has anyone defended the abuses which are occasionally found in charismatic circles today.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Thanks. Comparing both verses and the context clearly shows the 3000 on the day of Pentecost did not receive "charisma." Meaning dorea is used in Acts 2:38 as simply "gift."

And the gift they would have received is the gift promised in Acts 2:38, which is connected with Baptism. As the three thousand were baptized, they received God's gift--the Holy Spirit. To say anything more than this would be to commit gross violations against the text.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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1stcenturylady

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There are not 2 separate kinds of tongues - a gift and a sign.

The sign of tongues in Mark 16, along with the sign of miracles (such as picking up deadly snakes), driving out demons, and healing people, was a sign to authenticate the early believers and their message in their missionary endevours. Carry on reading the next couple of verses of Mark 16...

Mark 16:20 "Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it."

All those abilities were miraculous powers given to the early believers as confirming signs to others. They would 'wow' others and cause them to recognize that God was indeed with them, and so pay attention to the message they brought. Just as the tongues at Pentecost did. The other tongues in Acts has a similar confirming function - they caused the apostles to recognize that whole new groups of people were also genuine believers and should be accepted into the church.

This ability to perform miraculous signs was given by the Holy Spirit (Rom 15:19, Heb 2:4). It is therefore a gift of the Spirit - the same gift of tongues, miracles and healing as mentioned in 1 Cor 12.

The list of abilities in Mark 16:17 were not given to all believers. Although it happened in the first century, such miracles as picking up deadly snakes and drinking poison without harm are clearly not given to everyone today. Such confirming signs were only for the foundation of the church.

That is the sign giving function of tongues. Tongues spoken in private is not a sign to anyone. In fact private tongues is completely unbiblical. Nowhere in scripture does it advocate speaking in tongues in private. That would be an abuse of a spiritual gift which should only to be used for the benefit of others (1 Cor 12:7, 1 Peter 4:10).

The was also a secondary function of tongues of course when it was spoken in church meetings - to edify others (1 Cor 14) provided it was translated in the assembly.

Charismatics have already invented a new type of tongues, the 'heavenly' tongue to compliment the foreign tongues spoken in Acts which they clearly do not have. Now we have a further subdivision making 4 types of tongues. How many more types of tongues will have to be invented to order to try to get their preconceived ideas and experiences to align with scripture?

A couple more questions..

I take it by this understanding of Mark 16, if there is a sign and a gift of tongues, there must also be 2 types of healing - the sign of healing and the gift of healing and 2 types of miracles the sign of miracles and the gift of miracles. Perhaps you could tell us what the difference between those are?

If Corinthian tongues is the GIFT of tongues, how come 1 Cor 14:2 says tongues were spoken TO God?

If Corinthian tongues is the GIFT of tongues, how comes 1 Cor 14:14 says "if I pray in a tongue"? According to you isn't praying in tongues the SIGN of tongues?

Isn't the 'gift' of tongues in 1 Cor 14:22 also described as a 'sign'?

Sorry but, but like the miracle of hearing at Pentecost theory, there are just too many holes in this idea.

You are responsible for what you believe. But contradicting God's written word, is irresponsible.

14 Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. 15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God. 20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.

The way you are reading this only the apostles would be able to speak in tongues, completely disregarding those people who became Christians and spoke in tongues. Was baptism also only for the 1st century? Look, I feel sorry for you if you can't believe, but the Holy Spirit works the same today as He did back then. I don't know if you don't believe in healing either, but it is also for those who believe.
 
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redleghunter

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Now thaaats a stretch.

About the time I think I might have to work at this a bit - you put your foot in it.

" Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved."

"One day Peter and John were going up to the temple at the time of prayer—at three in the afternoon."
It's not a stretch as Peter presented the Gospel in public after "wonderful works of God." The diaspora Jews were not marveling at prayer but the wonderful works of God. Peter then explains what this wonderful work is. He gives his dialogue on the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Which frankly is the whole theme of the NT. See 1 Corinthians 15.
 
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ViaCrucis

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they did receive charisma if they received salvation. Rom 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the [charisma] of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

And if we translate it as "the grace of God is eternal life in Christ" we have a pretty good idea of what the Apostle is saying here--that our salvation is by God's kindness and generosity, what we receive (namely salvation) comes from God who is kind, generous, and loving and that He accomplishes our salvation by Christ, what Christ has done for us.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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1miraclechild

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Only by unbelievers denying the anointing of the Holy Spirit as originally preached by Jesus and the
Apostles.
Evidence of the work of the anti-Christ; mutilate the parchments and scrolls containing the word of
God and substitute the word with another gospel.
 
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1stcenturylady

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Show me the text in Acts 2 where it says they were praising God?

Praise by the 120:
Acts 2:11 "we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.”

Sermon by Peter:
Acts 2:14:39
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. 15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17 ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in heaven above
And signs in the earth beneath:
Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
21 And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Shall be saved.'

22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— 23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. 25 For David says concerning Him:

‘I foresaw the Lord always before my face,
For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad;
Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.
27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
28 You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of joy in Your presence.'

29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.

34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:

‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”

36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”

38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”
 
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redleghunter

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"One day Peter and John were going up to the temple at the time of prayer—at three in the afternoon."

And what did Peter and John end up doing that day?

They preached the Gospel after healing a man:

Acts 3: NKJV

“Men of Israel, why do you marvel at this? Or why look so intently at us, as though by our own power or godliness we had made this man walk? 13 The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go. 14 But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, 15 and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses. 16 And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

17 “Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers. 18 But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ 24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days. 25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’ 26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”
 
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Marvin Knox

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It's not a stretch as Peter presented the Gospel in public after "wonderful works of God." The diaspora Jews were not marveling at prayer but the wonderful works of God. Peter then explains what this wonderful work is. He gives his dialogue on the death and resurrection of Je
Which frankly is the whole theme of the NT. See 1 Corinthians 15.
It is a stretch.

The works of God in Acts 3 came a minimum of several days after the events of Acts chapter 2. The disciples in Acts 2 were not extolling the works of God which were going to take place several days later in Acts 3. That's ridiculous.
 
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1stcenturylady

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Yet there is no evidence of this in Acts 2.

Acts 2New King James Version (NKJV)
Coming of the Holy Spirit

2 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

The Crowd’s Response
5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language. 7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, “Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? 8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? 9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.” 12 So they were all amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “Whatever could this mean?”

13 Others mocking said, “They are full of new wine.”

Each devout Jew heard THEM, not one out of a cacophony of 120 different languages.

So are you a believer, or a mocker? The choice is yours.
 
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ViaCrucis

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It is a stretch.

The works of God in Acts 3 came a minimum of several days after the events of Acts chapter 2. The disciples in Acts 2 were not extolling the works of God which were going to take place several days later in Acts 3. That's ridiculous.

The wonderful works of God are what He did in and by Jesus Christ. The wonderful thing, the good news, that the Messiah had come, He was crucified under Pontius Pilate, was dead and buried, but on the third day rose again, that He ascended into the heavens, sits at the right hand of the Father, and will come again in glory on the Last Day.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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1miraclechild

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Amen ViaCrucis,
I Certainly Agree with What you've Said; even though a Few on this Site Say Tongues will Discontinue Till Jesus Returns. Yet my Annointed Pastor, his Wife, & Several brothers & sisters in Christ with Whom I go to Church with Speak in Tongues Quite Often!
love & prayers ;-) Rebecca


Another Day Closer To Heaven religious_10BLESSU (1).gif
 
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Marvin Knox

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The wonderful works of God are what He did in and by Jesus Christ. The wonderful thing, the good news, that the Messiah had come, He was crucified under Pontius Pilate, was dead and buried, but on the third day rose again, that He ascended into the heavens, sits at the right hand of the Father, and will come again in glory on the Last Day.
-CryptoLutheran
He referenced the chapter 3 works and events as being pointed to in the chapter 2 discourse - not any other works and events.

Of course everything that the Lord does is wonderful. But that's not the point I was referring to.
 
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