Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
It is sometimes good to unignore the Cessationists,
so I can see these examples of "HagionPneumaMyopia"
in all its various stages...
THAT WHICH IS PERFECT is the whole KINGDOM and STATE OF AFFAIRS accompanying Christ's return, so even if grammatically splitting hairs, it is an IT and not just a HE
But as I have pointed out above, this "Masculine gender vs Neuter gender" jazz can't be carried too far, Holy Spirit Himself is referred to in both ways
Paul answered the question.
I would hate to believe only the Corinths received the Holy Spirit, as tongues is not a Gospel message (from Jesus) nor is it mentioned to any other churches by Paul or mentioned in the non Canon Christian scriptures.
Alas, it seems as though the mere suggestion from a Christian of another tradition saying that Mr. X isn't really speaking in tongues--perhaps some TV preacher who throws a "Kala mala lama haka" into the middle of a sentence--is met by Pentecostal Christians with a denunciation as though HE, the observer, must be the one who doesn't have faith for having doubted.
If that is your opinion, then it is. But, again, we were discussing the gifts of the Holy Spirit, not who has faith and who doesn't.No, but if someone doubts EVERY Pentecostal that speaks in tongues, then yes, they don't have faith in the word of God.
The "FOR NOW / BUT THEN" illustration cannot mean "Christians will see Christ FACE TO FACE once the last New Testament book is written" as Cessationists allege.
Absolutely !!!
Receive the Holy Ghost and the immediate outward evidence speaking in tongues as the spirit gives direct undefileable contact with GOD !
Just as in the beginning ..Acts 2v4.. included Mary the mother of Jesus....
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (MUST)
Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth....according to the word, to pray in the Spirit :
1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
the first 2 is your part...the third is Gods seal of approval !
Holy Ghost + speaking in tongues .. no tongues no Spirit..
Ro 8:9 .............Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Not to be confused with the demonstration IN THE CHURCH (max 3) to show you are who you say you are !!
when you pray..go to your closet, private place and pray...
confess Jesus Christ..his way...
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
package deal
obtain the Grace,Mercy and Faith that Jesus Christ has made avaliable to whomsoever will..
or have the adversaries religious confusion..just words no power !
it would be like looking at someone "face to face" ie with far greater fullness and detail.
Let's THINK THROUGH what it would mean if
TONGUES/PROPHECY/WORD OF KNOWLEDGE
as charismatic gifts suddenly CEASED when the New Testament
was finished being written...
what DATES will we use for this "completion of New Testament"?
majority of sholars say Revelation was written about 95 AD
(though some sincere Christians who are Partial Preterists
hold that it may have been written in late sixties)
But lets say that it is now 110 AD, all apostles, even John of Zebedee,
are deceased -- the Gospels are finished and in the hands of local churches,
book of Revelation has been smuggles off Patmos and in the hands of Churches
And say we have one Lucius Marcellus, a Gentile Christian who has been speaking/praying
in Tongues for decades and decades...
At this point of TO TELEION (assuming that the Cessationist view that it means
'completion of New Testament' is correct)
Does Lucius Marcellus wake up one morning and find that
HE CAN NO LONGER PRAY IN TONGUES ??!!??
Or let us say that this TO TELEION is much later --
like when THE FIRST KNOWN LIST OF ALL 27 NT BOOKS WAS GIVEN
(which I think was about 325 AD in an Easter letter by Athanasius)
Then at that time we have Priscilla Bartholemew,
a Christian who has been praying in Tongues for decades;
does she read Athanasius' letter with the list of the 27 books and say to herself:
"Oh - that is why I have not been able to pray in Tongues since last wednesday --
THAT WHICH IS PERFECT/complete/mature has COME!!
Of course my charismaton just vanished!!"
See the silliness in saying TO TELEION means completion of the New Testament?
If that is your opinion, then it is. But, again, we were discussing the gifts of the Holy Spirit, not who has faith and who doesn't.
Besides, it is quite wrong IMHO to label any self-identified Christian as one who does not have "faith in the word of God" merely because there's a difference of opinion concerning one small doctrinal issue.
Have you ever wondered why the words from Mark 16 you quote cannot be found in the Codex Sinaiticus
I have. Have you?
So what do you say Phantasman -- is Mark 16:9-20 SCRIPTURE or not? Is it a GLOSS, or is the passage inspired by God?
All a person has to do to know whether maturity has come to the church is log in here at the Christian Forums. If things are still is in doubt spend some time in the soteriology section.I don't care if 'THAT WHICH IS PERFECT", "COMPLETENESS", or "final maturity" is used for an English rendition of TO TELEION; makes no difference to me.
TO TELEION is a time when we shall no longer SEE THROUGH A GLASS DARKLY -- as Paul, even in his own personal maturity -- said was still the case with him, even in adulthood/maturity.
It is a time/state of things WHICH HAS NOT COME YET, TO THIS DAY.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with the "completion of the New Testament writings".
HE ANALOGIES OF 'MILK VS. MEAT', "child to man", are illustrative of the human life of a Christian as he or she progresses in spiritual development -- they do not relate in any way to a FINAL KINGDOM COME when we will no longer see through a glass darkly -- it aint over til it's over.
And it aint over yet.
So, if the circulation of the completed canon is the criteria for when the gifts ceased, that would perhaps explain why tongues and the other gifts are so active in the areas where the scriptures aren't as readily available as they are in the West.No tongues didn't cease when the ink dried on John's papyrus. It took decades until the completed canon was circulated to all the churches.
Why isn't it in there? I believe it is inspired.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?