Spanking

[cantata]

Spanking belongs only between consenting adults. In those cases, I am very much for it

Really, I think any kind of violent response to misbehaviour is a bad idea, whatever the age of the child. I think the loss of privileges (TV time, going out, a favourite toy &c.) or the introduction of unpleasant responsibilities (washing up, taking out the rubbish &c.) are much more effective punishments because they mirror punishments you can continue to give throughout childhood, and because they reflect the consequences of bad behaviour that are likely to continue throughout your life.

What happens if you're rude to someone? You lose the privilege of their affections. What happens if you don't give back things people lend to you? You lose the privilege of borrowing them. Ultimately, what happens if you behave extremely badly (stealing, fighting &c.)? You have your freedom curtailed, or you have to do community service or pay a fine.

It seems to me that violence is a senseless punishment. It is punishment for punishment's sake, rather than because it is reparative or educational. What reason can the child possibly believe there was for them having been spanked? Only the very basic one that if you do bad things, bad things will happen. But when they get out into the real world, there is no parent to spank them. They need to understand that the natural consequences of bad behaviour are unpleasant.

I really can't think of any circumstance where spanking would be the preferable punishment.

 

[gengwall]

Spanking is certainly a legitimate means of delivering consequences. But it is not for everybody or every child. We didn't spank our girls hardly at all. It was unnecessary for DD#1 as she was very compliant and it was ineffective with DD#2. So, for us, there werre better ways to discipline. But I would never say spanking is "always wrong" or "never works".

 

[quatona]

you'd have to read Dare to Discipline. The ideas are fairly lengthy and that's just a small overview of the idea (very small).

honestly, I'd post it but I hate eon long posts and no one really is interested in reading a 25 paragraph summary anyway, but is interested in either posting their beliefs or supporting them.

No need for long quotes. When reading "it works best" I just noticed that I couldn´t think of any major value I pursue in the upbringing of children that it would work towards (and quite a few that it works against), so I was wondering what might be the major values you hold that it works best towards.

To give an illustrative example: Gagging children works great. I think this is a correct statement - if the purpose or value we pursue is e.g. silencing them. I don´t find that a major value in the upbringing of children, though.

 

[Meshavrischika]

No need for long quotes. When reading "it works best" I just noticed that I couldn´t think of any major value I pursue in the upbringing of children that it would work towards (and quite a few that it works against), so I was wondering what might be the major values you hold that it works best towards.

To give an illustrative example: Gagging children works great. I think this is a correct statement - if the purpose or value we pursue is e.g. silencing them. I don´t find that a major value in the upbringing of children, though.

hahaha

I guess my purpose in spanking is to get their attention really. Normally I only do it when they're in danger of harming themselves or others. I don't do it hard and I don't do it to inflict pain ever. I do it to get them to focus on what I'm saying and I have yet to have them not. (mine are more pops than spanking formal)

As for the reaction from them... I don't ever see anger or resentment or anything mentioned from other posts. But then, I have very strong willed, not too sensitive babies. I'd venture to say spanking an introverted insecure or hesitant child would be a big mistake.

gagging children - hahahah (sorry... that was a great example)

 

[Beanieboy]

I remember discussing this with college friends, and I said, "Yeah, thank God for the 60s and fat belts. They totally didn't hurt," to my friends mouths standing open.

I assumed everyone had been beaten with a belt, yardstick, or paddle (Those paddles with the ball at the end still give me the willies.

But yeah, I thought I was just angering my parents. Sometimes it was done in anger, sometimes not. My sister doesn't think it was abuse, one of my brothers doesn't remember any of it.

I think a lot of it depends on the kid. I was a really sensitive kid. (Ever see Gilbert Grape, where the brother smashes a grasshopper, and then you see him crying? That was me. I once stole candy from a store to see if I could, and felt guilty about it for 6 months. I thought about it every day.)

It had some bad effects on me. I was always trying to fly below the radar at school, avoid bullies. I learned to avoid punishment, rather than confront problems, or to seek reward.

There was also a contradiction: Stop hitting your brother, or I'm going to hit you. Then, you believe that the bigger person has the power, so once your kids get bigger than you, as I did, they start to rebel, knowing that you can't spank them anymore.

The thing that worked the most? Being forced to "sit on the chair." 1/2 goes by at a snails pace. And worse? Sitting on a chair and forced to hold my brother's hand.

I also didn't enjoy losing priveledges, but it's necessary to focus on the positive ones. My parents gave attention to what we did wrong, and what we did right was simply expected, which created really negative self esteem.

I am reminded of something that I read in an acting book. The man was in a play with an accompllished actress, and the director said, "No, you not.... No, don't ...... You sound to...." And finally, she said, "Darling. Don't Shame me. Praise me. That's what I live for."

And that's very true. Kids want to praise their parents, and if you focus on what they do positively, most of the negative behavior starves and dies off. If you negotiate with your children, they learn how to negotiate. If you simply make your child be responsible for his actions, you teach him that there are consequences that come back to you.

If you simply use threat or punishment, once you are out of sight, so are the rules.

 

[gengwall]

I also didn't enjoy losing priveledges, but it's necessary to focus on the positive ones. My parents gave attention to what we did wrong, and what we did right was simply expected, which created really negative self esteem.

You know. Although this is probably true in many homes and although there are certainly more positive ways to go about incentivizing kids to behave, there's something to be said about preparing kids for adulthood. I heard it said once that parents are not raising children, they are raising the next generation of adults. Very often in the real world, especially in business, that "punish wrong; expect right" philosophy dominates. In fact, I very much have a personal work ethic that follows that approach. I expect myself to do the right thing and don't expect to get a lot of congratulations and praise when I do. On the other hand, I fully expect my employer to let me know where I have gone astray so that I can correct the problem. There is no doubt that I aquired a great deal of this attitutde in my formative years, although I am not aware my parents had any particular plan or intention to instill those values. So, I guess the bottom line is, what kind of adults do people become who received attention for what they did wrong and were simply expected to do what was right?

 

[keith99]

Spanking belongs only between consenting adults. In those cases, I am very much for it

Really, I think any kind of violent response to misbehaviour is a bad idea, whatever the age of the child. I think the loss of privileges (TV time, going out, a favourite toy &c.) or the introduction of unpleasant responsibilities (washing up, taking out the rubbish &c.) are much more effective punishments because they mirror punishments you can continue to give throughout childhood, and because they reflect the consequences of bad behaviour that are likely to continue throughout your life.

What happens if you're rude to someone? You lose the privilege of their affections. What happens if you don't give back things people lend to you? You lose the privilege of borrowing them. Ultimately, what happens if you behave extremely badly (stealing, fighting &c.)? You have your freedom curtailed, or you have to do community service or pay a fine.

It seems to me that violence is a senseless punishment. It is punishment for punishment's sake, rather than because it is reparative or educational. What reason can the child possibly believe there was for them having been spanked? Only the very basic one that if you do bad things, bad things will happen. But when they get out into the real world, there is no parent to spank them. They need to understand that the natural consequences of bad behaviour are unpleasant.

I really can't think of any circumstance where spanking would be the preferable punishment.

You do bring up an important issue, spanking is an erotic activity and can send very wrong messages. This is especially dangerous in kids who are not getting adequate attention at other times.

Perhaps my view of when spanking is called for varies from others in one more way I was not fully aware of. The more I read threads the more I see others look at it more and more in terms of making a child compliant. I see spanking as appropriate more for safety issues than anything else. The kid who runs into the street, the one who sticks a fork into a wall socket, the kid down in the river that day it is raining. In a very real way these are all things where patience on hte parents part is not a virtue as the next offence by the child may be their last.

 

[cantata]

You do bring up an important issue, spanking is an erotic activity and can send very wrong messages. This is especially dangerous in kids who are not getting adequate attention at other times.

Desmond Morris hypothesised that the act of spanking an bared, upturned bottom mirrors the habit that dominant males among various ape species have of mounting subordinate males to assert their leadership.

The erotic implications of spanking are probably worth worrying about.

 

[Caitlin.ann]

Desmond Morris hypothesised that the act of spanking an bared, upturned bottom mirrors the habit that dominant males among various ape species have of mounting subordinate males to assert their leadership.

The erotic implications of spanking are probably worth worrying about.

Did not know that...

 

[cantata]

Did not know that...

Hehe well I might hasten to add that much of Desmond Morris' ideas in The Naked Ape have since been superseded, but it's still worth thinking about why we spank and what message it sends.

 

[Domenico]

The child I help look after is five. He is about 20 kilos and three and a bit feet tall.
I am twenty one. I am about 110 kilos and a bit under seven feet tall.

I can think of no situation where it would be appropriate for me to use physical force on him. I have the ability to hurt him very badly. I should never hold that over him.

 

[keith99]

I remember discussing this with college friends, and I said, "Yeah, thank God for the 60s and fat belts. They totally didn't hurt," to my friends mouths standing open.

I assumed everyone had been beaten with a belt, yardstick, or paddle (Those paddles with the ball at the end still give me the willies.

But yeah, I thought I was just angering my parents. Sometimes it was done in anger, sometimes not. My sister doesn't think it was abuse, one of my brothers doesn't remember any of it.

I think a lot of it depends on the kid. I was a really sensitive kid. (Ever see Gilbert Grape, where the brother smashes a grasshopper, and then you see him crying? That was me. I once stole candy from a store to see if I could, and felt guilty about it for 6 months. I thought about it every day.)

It had some bad effects on me. I was always trying to fly below the radar at school, avoid bullies. I learned to avoid punishment, rather than confront problems, or to seek reward.

There was also a contradiction: Stop hitting your brother, or I'm going to hit you. Then, you believe that the bigger person has the power, so once your kids get bigger than you, as I did, they start to rebel, knowing that you can't spank them anymore.

The thing that worked the most? Being forced to "sit on the chair." 1/2 goes by at a snails pace. And worse? Sitting on a chair and forced to hold my brother's hand.

I also didn't enjoy losing priveledges, but it's necessary to focus on the positive ones. My parents gave attention to what we did wrong, and what we did right was simply expected, which created really negative self esteem.

I am reminded of something that I read in an acting book. The man was in a play with an accompllished actress, and the director said, "No, you not.... No, don't ...... You sound to...." And finally, she said, "Darling. Don't Shame me. Praise me. That's what I live for."

And that's very true. Kids want to praise their parents, and if you focus on what they do positively, most of the negative behavior starves and dies off. If you negotiate with your children, they learn how to negotiate. If you simply make your child be responsible for his actions, you teach him that there are consequences that come back to you.

If you simply use threat or punishment, once you are out of sight, so are the rules.

You give so many good starting points. I think sometimes todays world goes overboard when it comes to praising kids, praise needs to be real. But for any kid I've known the chance does eventually come up. In the long run a base of praise and caring is crucial. I had that. Now there were things that were expected. It was always assumed I'd graduate college without any problems. Performing (reasonably well) in school was not some oh good boy thing. Also a lot of the 'praise' was not in the form of them telling me how good I was. It was in the form of my folks just being there for the sporting events I was a part of and cheering for me, win or lose. Actually thinking obout it I have to say support is more important than praise. Having your parents say they will support you in any (good) thing you want to do. That does not mean they will foot the bills, just that to use the boxing term, they will be in your corner.

Spankings were very rare in my life, nor were they hard by any reasonable standard. In fact looking back the most painful part was that this was a clear message that I had messed up big time. I would argue that something that is trying to look like natural consequences has a problem doing that. On the other side if the foundation of love and caring is not firmly established spanking probably do not carry this as quite so clear a message.

I'm not at all convinced that praise will starve off all or even most negative behavior. But I am firmly convinced that lack of positive attention often leads to negative attention. I've ehard it said more than once, it is better to be hit than ignored. That is truely sad, but it is the case too many kids face. But a base of praise and caring combined with reasonable consequences seems to work pretty well in any case I know of.

 

[keith99]

Desmond Morris hypothesised that the act of spanking an bared, upturned bottom mirrors the habit that dominant males among various ape species have of mounting subordinate males to assert their leadership.

The erotic implications of spanking are probably worth worrying about.

Not limited to apes. The same is seen in Dogs and is clearly a dominance issue. I have one of the sweetest alpha male (sort of) dogs ever. He routinely lets the other dog steal his biskits. But God have mercy on the dog that tries to mount him.