Spanish Inquisiton

[jamiec]

I’m not aware of anyone claiming a hundred million were killed, and if true that would be per se incredible since it exceeds the population of Spain and Portugal throughout the period of the Inquisition. Indeed even in 1800 the population of Spain was less than 15 million; today it is 40 million.

There are also several logical fallacies in your argument which I can enumerate for you, although ordinarily I only do that in arguments made directly to myself, as I want people who debate me to use logical arguments and avoid fallacy and factual error.

A figure of 130 million killed by Catholicism generally, has been stated on some Seventh-Day Adventist websites. On what this figure is based, is anyone’s guess. Some Chick tracts and comics give figures of several tens of millions. Neither of these sources gives references to their sources for these figures; which makes informed discussion of them very difficult.

 

[The Liturgist]

A figure of 130 million killed by Catholicism generally, has been stated on some Seventh-Day Adventist websites

Do you have a link? Because if someone said such a wicked untruth it must be confronted. That number exceeds the total number of Christians killed by Muslims and Communists, who are responsible for the majority of martyrdoms of Christians.

Indeed the only way I can think of that someone could arrive at such a figure would be through a skewed sectarian interpretation of all wars involving secular states of a majority Christian population.

 

[The Liturgist]

The corruption of the church back then eventually lead to the reformation.

The corruption was specific to the Western church.

My comment was more broad in scope however, like when Pastors do bad things they use the language of forgiveness manipulatively.

Indeed. The early church established canons, which are still followed by the Eastern churches, that disqualify a number of people from serving in any clerical capacity, including anyone who commits adultery, or who engages in deviant behavior, and which also preclude clergy from engaging in certain conduct which invites problems, for example, managing the financial affairs of members of the church.

In a similar fashion, if one is satirized, shouldn't they turn the other cheek?

Yes. Most Orthodox I know find the Seinfeld episode “the Conversion” and “My Big Fat Greek Wedding” to be very amusing, if far removed from reality.

 

[jamiec]

Do you have a link? Because if someone said such a wicked untruth it must be confronted. That number exceeds the total number of Christians killed by Muslims and Communists, who are responsible for the majority of martyrdoms of Christians.

Indeed the only way I can think of that someone could arrive at such a figure would be through a skewed sectarian interpretation of all wars involving secular states of a majority Christian population.

I’ll try and find it find it for you. This was some years ago, and I remember the figure because it was the highest figure for an alleged Catholic body-count that I had so far come across.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Why do teachings like this only apply when the church is corrupt and needs to repent?

We are talking about history. Even if you say that the Church is still corrupt today, how does the use of tactics prohibited by Christ help your cause?
Did the sermon on the mount tell you to ridicule your enemies and provoke them to anger?
Show me the verse

If a group is really evil and corrupt, exposing the acts of corruption in an argument of reason would do more to make a point
Satire shuts off reason, which is the action of men, and appeals to emotion, which is the instinct of beasts. Reason is shut off and dissent is changed to anger which results in chaos, and you have then achieved the exact opposite of your stated intent which is a call to repentance

Christ taught us blessed are the peacemakers, not blessed are the satirists

 

[Gregory Thompson]

We are talking about history. Even if you say that the Church is still corrupt today, how does the use of tactics prohibited by Christ help your cause?
Did the sermon on the mount tell you to ridicule your enemies and provoke them to anger?
Show me the verse

If a group is really evil and corrupt, exposing the acts of corruption in an argument of reason would do more to make a point
Satire shuts off reason, which is the action of men, and appeals to emotion, which is the instinct of beasts. Reason is shut off and dissent is changed to anger which results in chaos, and you have then achieved the exact opposite of your stated intent which is a call to repentance

Christ taught us blessed are the peacemakers, not blessed are the satirists

The appeal to "Reason" sounds like Enlightenment theology which basically lead to the holocaust, so not convincing.

Jesus did say to turn the other cheek when we're insulted tho, so satire still has a good purpose.

 

[Kathleen30]

The appeal to "Reason" sounds like Enlightenment theology which basically lead to the holocaust, so not convincing.

Jesus did say to turn the other cheek when we're insulted tho, so satire still has a good purpose.

Gregory I would be a little careful with the holocaust might be a case of the exaggerated numbers as mentioned about the Spanish Inquisition in many of the posts here. In what way did enlightenment theology lead to the holocaust.l? We saw plenty of that in the French, Bolshevik Russian and Chinese communist revolutions. But of the holocaust?

 

[boughtwithaprice]

The appeal to "Reason" sounds like Enlightenment theology which basically lead to the holocaust, so not convincing.

Jesus did say to turn the other cheek when we're insulted tho, so satire still has a good purpose.

Reason is what separates us from the animals

Enlightenment theology is faulty reason based on a false premise, which is modernism which sprang from materialism. This was started by Rene Descartes who denied miracles and proposed that all religion or religions experiences can be explained by natural laws. He used satire to paint those that disagree with him as superstitious religious nut jobs.
It’s been about 400-500 years and we are still paying the price of that satire. Reason based on a false premise requires satire to keep people from thinking and figuring out the truth.
Just try and question evolution in a scientific way. I have done it and still maintain my job as a biological science practitioner. Most people do not want to talk, shut off their mind and groan, even though evolution is based on several philosophical false premises, but satire has turned it into science
Thankfully, secular science is coming to the realization that Darwin’s theory is unworkable as pure materialism and Descartes is found to be mistaken 500 years later. Once again, thanks satire. Check out the book Plato’s Revenge, The new science of the Immaterial Genome to get an idea of what is happening in science today
Science is legitimate if properly used. Science makes an hypothesis and seeks out evidence that would falsify it. False science is a narrative.
A Narrative makes an hypothesis and seeks out any evidence that would support or seem to support its claims, all the while ignoring evidence that would contradict it as statistical anomalies
Evolution is a narrative, not science
If you are interested in reviewing the narrative and really knowing what is happening to force the worlds thinking in a particular direction, then view the videos series Foundations Restored to see what did and what is happening

I agree with you that Enlightenment thinking is greatly flawed. That is not the fault of reason. It’s more the fault of satire in an Emperors new clothes kind of way

 

[Fromissouri]

This thread is one of the most rational and helpful I've ever read on Christian Forums. Kudos to all concerned.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Gregory I would be a little careful with the holocaust might be a case of the exaggerated numbers as mentioned about the Spanish Inquisition in many of the posts here. In what way did enlightenment theology lead to the holocaust.l? We saw plenty of that in the French, Bolshevik Russian and Chinese communist revolutions. But of the holocaust?

Enlightenment theology focuses on what it wants to say and sidelines everything else using Reason. This ingrained mindset is what created the just the blindspot for atrocities to be created under the nose of the church. It continues today, it's just not new theology anymore tho.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Reason is what separates us from the animals

Debatable. reason enables us to be more desensitized and more violent as a society in a "removed" kind of way so we seem "Civilized."

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Debatable. reason enables us to be more desensitized and more violent as a society in a "removed" kind of way so we seem "Civilized."

What is your alternative? Without reason we have only our instincts. It seems you are confusing reason with faulty reason

God Himself says come let us reason together

Isaiah 1:18



The word of God speaks against enlightenment thinking, but it does not tell us to abandon reason

2 Peter 2

12 But these men, as irrational beasts, naturally tending to the snare and to destruction, blaspheming those things which they know not, shall perish in their corruption, 13 Receiving the reward of their injustice, counting for a pleasure the delights of a day: stains and spots, sporting themselves to excess, rioting in their feasts with you: 14 Having eyes full of adultery and of sin that ceaseth not: alluring unstable souls, having their heart exercised with covetousness, children of malediction: 15 Leaving the right way they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam of Bosor, who loved the wages of iniquity,

16 But had a check of his madness, the dumb beast used to the yoke, which speaking with man's voice, forbade the folly of the prophet. 17 These are fountains without water, and clouds tossed with whirlwinds, to whom the mist of darkness is reserved. 18 For, speaking proud words of vanity, they allure by the desires of fleshly riotousness, those who for a little while escape, such as converse in error: 19 Promising them liberty, whereas they themselves are the slaves of corruption. For by whom a man is overcome, of the same also he is the slave. 20 For if, flying from the pollutions of the world, through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they be again entangled in them and overcome: their latter state is become unto them worse than the former.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of justice, than after they have known it, to turn back from that holy commandment which was delivered to them. 22 For, that of the true proverb has happened to them: The dog is returned to his vomit: and, The sow that was washed, to her wallowing in the mire.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

What is your alternative? Without reason we have only our instincts. It seems you are confusing reason with faulty reason

God Himself says come let us reason together

Isaiah 1:18



The word of God speaks against enlightenment thinking, but it does not tell us to abandon reason

2 Peter 2

12 But these men, as irrational beasts, naturally tending to the snare and to destruction, blaspheming those things which they know not, shall perish in their corruption, 13 Receiving the reward of their injustice, counting for a pleasure the delights of a day: stains and spots, sporting themselves to excess, rioting in their feasts with you: 14 Having eyes full of adultery and of sin that ceaseth not: alluring unstable souls, having their heart exercised with covetousness, children of malediction: 15 Leaving the right way they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam of Bosor, who loved the wages of iniquity,

16 But had a check of his madness, the dumb beast used to the yoke, which speaking with man's voice, forbade the folly of the prophet. 17 These are fountains without water, and clouds tossed with whirlwinds, to whom the mist of darkness is reserved. 18 For, speaking proud words of vanity, they allure by the desires of fleshly riotousness, those who for a little while escape, such as converse in error: 19 Promising them liberty, whereas they themselves are the slaves of corruption. For by whom a man is overcome, of the same also he is the slave. 20 For if, flying from the pollutions of the world, through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they be again entangled in them and overcome: their latter state is become unto them worse than the former.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of justice, than after they have known it, to turn back from that holy commandment which was delivered to them. 22 For, that of the true proverb has happened to them: The dog is returned to his vomit: and, The sow that was washed, to her wallowing in the mire.

As for the alternative, the Christians (not one, but the many) need to lead the way. If the church thinks things on a foundational level are AOK, then the narrative continues minus spiritual transformation

 

[boughtwithaprice]

As for the alternative, the Christians (not one, but the many) need to lead the way. If the church thinks things on a foundational level are AOK, then the narrative continues minus spiritual transformation

I agree that Christians need to lead the way, but we cannot abandon reason. Faulty reason is defeated by right reason

When reason is abandoned, the only thing left is might makes right which does no one any good

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I agree that Christians need to lead the way, but we cannot abandon reason. Faulty reason is defeated by right reason

When reason is abandoned, the only thing left is might makes right which does no one any good

I think sanctified reason is what we need. There are a lot of theologies filled with "carnal" reasoning.

 

[The Liturgist]

I’ll try and find it find it for you. This was some years ago, and I remember the figure because it was the highest figure for an alleged Catholic body-count that I had so far come across.

Yes please do.

 

[The Liturgist]

I think sanctified reason is what we need. There are a lot of theologies filled with "carnal" reasoning.

Sanctified reason - Hagia Sophia, the greatest Christian cathedral, which the Muslims stole from us.

 

[The Liturgist]

Debatable. reason enables us to be more desensitized and more violent as a society in a "removed" kind of way so we seem "Civilized."

That’s not reason, that’s unreason.

In John 1:1, in the original Greek, it refers to Jesus Christ as the “Logos”, which literally means “word”, but in the context of “logic” and “reason.” So the Greek word for people who are unreasonable is “alogoi.”

Indeed the fourth century St. Epiphanios of Cyprus used the term “Alogoi” in jest to refer to a small heretical sect that rejected the Gospel of John in his classic work the Panarion, which translated means “Medicine chest”, that is to say “ First aid kit”, and which is basically an encyclopedia of schismatic heresies in the early church, every group from the Arians to the Manicheans to the Valentinians.

 

[The Liturgist]

The word of God speaks against enlightenment thinking,

Indeed, much of the so-called “enlightenment” of the 18th century would be more properly called the “endarkenment.”

 

[Gregory Thompson]

That’s not reason, that’s unreason.

In John 1:1, in the original Greek, it refers to Jesus Christ as the “Logos”, which literally means “word”, but in the context of “logic” and “reason.” So the Greek word for people who are unreasonable is “alogoi.”

Indeed the fourth century St. Epiphanios of Cyprus used the term “Alogoi” in jest to refer to a small heretical sect that rejected the Gospel of John in his classic work the Panarion, which translated means “Medicine chest”, that is to say “ First aid kit”, and which is basically an encyclopedia of schismatic heresies in the early church, every group from the Arians to the Manicheans to the Valentinians.

In the beginning was the word. I looked in Genesis, the only thing resembling that is when the Voice of God walked around in the Garden during the cool of the day.

It may indeed be deeper than just logic, but God's logic to ours is like from Heaven to Earth .. so probably something lost in translation.