Spanish Inquisition

[Dominus Fidelis]

Did the Spanish Inquisition use torture?

This question came up in another thread and someone asked me for documentation to prove it happened.

Here is a Catholic source talking about torture in the Spanish Inquisition. It is a very fair and balanced report that both defends the Spanish people as a culture and the Church from the exaggerations of Protestants.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/HOMELIBR/SPANINQ.TXT

But, it also says not to whitewash the subject. It says torture couldnt last longer than 15 minutes, but admits torture did happen for heresy, etc.

Note this part though...

"Modern Spanish scholars point out that other nations have worse records than Spain in dealing with heretics. English Catholics suffered horribly under Protestant regimes."

So, it is clear that the Spanish Inquisition used torture, but this is not pointed out to attack the Spanish (my own children are half-hispanic and I love the culture) or attack the Church.

Also from the article:

Nor do we want cover-ups of the past, for as Leo XIII said, "The Church has no need of any man's lie."

 

[PeterPaul]

Nice distortion DF. Would you like to read the closed thread?

Did I not ask you to affirm where it used torture to keep Catholics in line?

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

"Did I not ask you to affirm where it used torture to keep Catholics in line?"

Yes, you did. And I did, clearly.

I don't wish to argue, nor will I be baited to get this thread closed. Face the fact, the Spanish Inquisition used torture to keep Catholics in line...ie hunt down heresy.

 

[PeterPaul]

"Torturing people into being good Catholics."
-DF

 

[PeterPaul]

"Did I not ask you to affirm where it used torture to keep Catholics in line?"

Yes, you did. And I did, clearly.

I don't wish to argue, nor will I be baited to get this thread closed. Face the fact, the Spanish Inquisition used torture to keep Catholics in line...ie hunt down heresy.

Face the fact that it does not "keep Catholics in line" to hunt heresy. One thing has nothing to do with another.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Yes, that is what they did. The tortured people to root out heresy.

What part of that do you not understand?

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

"Face the fact that it does not "keep Catholics in line" to hunt heresy. One thing has nothing to do with another."

What are you talking about?

 

[PeterPaul]

Yes, that is what they did. The tortured people to root out heresy.

What part of that do you not understand?

What part don't you understand? Did you even read the article you posted?

Again, how do you claim that they "tortured people to root out heresy" as if they took every or a majority of Catholics, and made sure they were not heretics by imposing torture on them?

 

[ZooMom]

No-one denied that torture was used in the Inquisition, DF. The question asked was where is the documentation that the *Church* tortured people into 'being good Catholics'. You made the claim that she did, so you are being asked to back it up. This need not turn into an ugly scene, which it certainly has the potential to do. None of us here should be taking the opportunity to instruct as a means of 'scoring points' off each other, and we should teach just as humbly as we should learn.

Peace be with you.

Sandy

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

What part don't you understand? Did you even read the article you posted?

Again, how do you claim that they "tortured people to root out heresy" as if they took every or a majority of Catholics, and made sure they were not heretics by imposing torture on them?

Dont try to muddy the waters and move the goal posts, PP.

You asked me to document my claim that the Spanish Inquistion used torture. I did. Now you are asking me to document that the Spanish people used torture on all Catholics.

That trick is easily spotted. I was hoping this would not turn into another argument, but I guess you can't admit that I easily documented what you wanted me to document...with a Catholic source.

 

[Dream]

In any case, no Catholic should ever whitewash the Inquisition. We must honestly acknowledge that three Popes-Sixtus IV, Innocent VIII, and Alexander VI-tried to moderate the undue severity of the early Spanish Inquisition.

.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Yes ZooMom, and my opening post was diplomatic and humble. Not trying to score points, just setting the record straight on historical fact.

PP asked for documentation and I supplied it. No need for ugliness or pride...or denial.

 

[ZooMom]

Your opening post did not address how the Church supposedly tortured people 'into being good Catholics'. For instance, how did the Church pick out the 'bad Catholics' and how then did they proceed to 'torture' the badness out of them to where they were 'good Catholics' again? The answer is that she didn't. That was not the impetus of the Inquisitions. Catholics were not the targets, heretics were.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

I didn't go into how the Church found the suspected heretics, because that was beyong the scope of the question. The fact is the Spanish Bishops of the time tortured people in order to rid them of heresy...how is that not "making them better Catholics." And yes, they were Catholics that were tortured. That article made it clear. There werent even any Protestants around during some of the years of the Inquisition. There were Jews and Muslim converts to Catholicism that were tortured to root out heresies and to steal their lands.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

ZooMom-

Here is an encylopedia article saying that the Inquisition went far beyond converted Jews and Muslims (read: Catholics that converted from Jewish and Muslims faiths) to even the likes of St. Ignatius of Loyola and St. Theresa of Ávila. Were they not Catholic?

The Spanish Inquisition was independent of the medieval Inquisition. It was established (1478) by Ferdinand and Isabella with the reluctant approval of Sixtus IV. One of the first and most notorious heads was Tomas de Torquemada . It was entirely controlled by the Spanish kings, and the pope's only hold over it was in naming the inquisitor general. The popes were never reconciled to the institution, which they regarded as usurping a church prerogative.

The purpose of the Spanish Inquisition was to discover and punish converted Jews (and later Muslims) who were insincere. However, soon no Spaniard could feel safe from it; thus, St. Ignatius of Loyola and St. Theresa of Ávila were investigated for heresy. The censorship policy even condemned books approved by the Holy See. The Spanish Inquisition was much harsher, more highly organized, and far freer with the death penalty than the medieval Inquisition; its autos-da-fé became notorious. The Spanish government tried to establish the Inquisition in all its dominions; but in the Spanish Netherlands the local officials did not cooperate, and the inquisitors were chased (1510) out of Naples, apparently with the pope's connivance. The Spanish Inquisition was finally abolished in 1834.

 

[geocajun]

Defens0rFidei has exceeded their stored private messages quota and can not accept further messages until they clear some space.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Done, resend please.

 

[PeterPaul]

Dont try to muddy the waters and move the goal posts, PP.

You asked me to document my claim that the Spanish Inquistion used torture. I did. Now you are asking me to document that the Spanish people used torture on all Catholics.

That trick is easily spotted. I was hoping this would not turn into another argument, but I guess you can't admit that I easily documented what you wanted me to document...with a Catholic source.

Nice try DF. Since apparently you never read my replies to your other thread, here you go. The claim that I said the Inquisition never used torture is your invention

"Really? Can you provide proof that we tortured into being good Catholics?"

"But, in the meantime, can you support the claim that in Spain, at any time, any torturous means were used to make Catholics stay in line?"

"Absolutely. If its so well documented that we tortured to make better Catholics, then I'm sure you will have no problem finding documentation"

So, again, where is the documentation that Catholics were tortured to make better Catholics?

And your next claim, that the Jews and Muslims tortured were done to so take over their lands, and that the Church supported that, where is that?

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Why should I now document the land stealing bit if you refuse to read the plain historical fact that the Spanish church used torture to make converts better Catholics...and then craddle Catholics better Catholics too?

I won't waste more time if you won't admit the plain truth I documented.

 

[PeterPaul]

Why should I now document the land stealing bit if you refuse to read the plain historical fact that the Spanish church used torture to make converts better Catholics...and then craddle Catholics better Catholics too?

I won't waste more time if you won't admit the plain truth I documented.

You never documented anything of the sort.