Space-Time, Universe Models, and Whether a "Big Bang" Could Even Happen

[Stephen3141]

Scientists are no longer sure the Universe began with a bang | Aeon Essays

It was thought that science could tell us about the origins of the Universe. Today that great endeavour is in serious doubt

aeon.co

This is an article on the development of thinking about "space-time" and gravity,
and even what we can infer about the past history of the universe, given current
scientific observations.

This is the best overview article (for scientific laymen), that I have encountered.

It is important for Christians to read good articles like this, in order to be
aware and knowledgeable about how scientific reasoning (using models)
has changed over the centuries, and to be conscious and knowlegeable
about the questions that can be asked, given scientific models of the
universe.
---------- ----------

Although the emergence of "Big Bang" models of the universe dismayed
some atheists, because they seemed to imply that the universe had a beginning
in time (this is compatible with the existence of a divine creator), more modern
reasoning about the space-time and gravity models suggest that, following the
direction of space-time backwards, leads to an infiniteloy curved place which
has no "beginning" in time.

The modern reasoning about physics models also brings up the conclusion that,
given current observations of the universe, it is possible to infer a probable
configuration of space-time and universal characteristics, BUT that the
possibility exists that unobserved portions of the universe do not follow these
inferred configurations. The problem is the difficulty of solving Einstein's
equations, to try to "universalize" them and conclude anything about ALL
space-time. Note that currently, scientists often still use Newton's equations,
because at least they are relatively computable.

Many other questions are raised in this article, including the impossibility of
a "same" instantaneous "time", by which each location in space-time could be
monitored. Even given the speculations about "instantaneous" linking of
multiple particles, that are separated in space-time.
---------- ----------

From the standpoint of Christian apologetics, Christians ought to recognize
the possible dire mistakes of trying to read theologies into physics models of
the universe, or trying to read physics models of the universe into interpretations
of Scripture.

Just as the models of Darwinian evolution, Neo-Darwinian evolution and later
versions of evolution with epigenetic effects are not a threat to orthodox
Christian doctrine (but were treated as such, by some Fundamentalist
Christian groups), so too, Christians should not leap to embrace models of
the universe that seem to help them explain the Christian faith.

This is a hard lesson for some Christian groups to learn, and some, have not
yet learned it.

 

[Stephen3141]

By the way, the article discusses how we each could (or could not) identify
any one, unique instant in time. I'm not sure that I agree with this reasoning
(it involves the question of whether or not space, and time, are continuous
of discrete). For Christians, I do not see that this is a substantive issue,
although for modern physics, it may be.

 

[Neogaia777]

I generally don't have a problem working within some of the assumptions that many scientists make/have made about the/this universe when talking to them, or with them, etc, but I do have a few ideas of my own that I fully think are just as much possible that are made or based on what we observe, or the evidence, that I wish they would listen to, or would at the very least entertain, or would hear out, etc.

One of them has to do with a forever, perpetual universe from this point onward or out, etc.

God Bless.

 

[com7fy8]

a forever, perpetual universe from this point onward or out, etc.

Physically, it is possible for the universe to continue forever. But in what condition, for various items?

The Bible says there will be a new heaven and a new earth. And according to what I read in Romans 8:20-21, the universe will be changed into "the glorious liberty of the children of God." And I understand that in our glorious liberty we will be *resurrected* into Jesus Christ's own glory. So, if the universe joins us in this, it will not be like it has been.

And if the universe can be resurrected by God, how might it have begun? Possibly, the earlier universe was in a supernatural state, and then become as it is physical now. And so, if this is true, then scientific principles alone can not tell us what happened in the beginning.

About there having been a big bang > if all is composed of what is physical, then all in the universe would have to function according to scientific principles which would be set and therefore predictable and experimentally provable. So, as soon as such matter existed, right then it would do what is predictable and provable so there would be a big bang, immediately, I would think. So, why did this not happen earlier or later than when ones claim it did????

Set physical principles for a big bang, I would think, would work as soon as those principles existed. But there has been all eternity before now or before the moment of the claimed big bang. Those principles would have all eternity . . . earlier . . . to do what they are guaranteed to do, but they didn't.

So, that is interesting, how certain scientists can see that a big moment would support that Someone started things when He pleased. But they do not want that to be true?? And so they are looking for some other explanation.

 

[Neogaia777]

Physically, it is possible for the universe to continue forever. But in what condition, for various items?

The Bible says there will be a new heaven and a new earth. And according to what I read in Romans 8:20-21, the universe will be changed into "the glorious liberty of the children of God." And I understand that in our glorious liberty we will be *resurrected* into Jesus Christ's own glory. So, if the universe joins us in this, it will not be like it has been.

And if the universe can be resurrected by God, how might it have begun? Possibly, the earlier universe was in a supernatural state, and then become as it is physical now. And so, if this is true, then scientific principles alone can not tell us what happened in the beginning.

About there having been a big bang > if all is composed of what is physical, then all in the universe would have to function according to scientific principles which would be set and therefore predictable and experimentally provable. So, as soon as such matter existed, right then it would do what is predictable and provable so there would be a big bang, immediately, I would think. So, why did this not happen earlier or later than when ones claim it did????

Set physical principles for a big bang, I would think, would work as soon as those principles existed. But there has been all eternity before now or before the moment of the claimed big bang. Those principles would have all eternity . . . earlier . . . to do what they are guaranteed to do, but they didn't.

So, that is interesting, how certain scientists can see that a big moment would support that Someone started things when He pleased. But they do not want that to be true?? And so they are looking for some other explanation.

I don't know if a new heaven and a new earth means a new universe or not, and some of my ideas when it comes to the universe are just some alternative plausible theories to some current scientific ideas about the origins and endings of the universe right now, etc, but one of them has to do with what we observe about the universe right now supposedly expanding, and increasing faster in that expansion when I don't believe that is the case, etc, because what we actually observe is the universe growing or expanding outward from us at the center, and increasing in the speed or rate of that expansion the further stuff is away from us out, etc, and supposedly with us as the center, etc. But I propose that it is expanding equally outward from everything else with nowhere as the center and at a constant rate of growth/expansion that never changes and is equal everywhere, etc, and it's really not all that fast or that much either, etc, at least not at those scales anyway, relatively speaking, etc. And then that we also have gravity attracting everything back towards one another, etc. And that these are in a kind of balance so that as much as it is growing or expanding is the same as as much as everything is being drawn back in/towards/on one another, etc. And all of this could mean that the umiverse could be infinite and perpetual from this point/time onward maybe, etc.

Did it start with a BB? I don't know. But it maybe could have also been started already laid out maybe, and then set into motion maybe, etc. I'm not saying that that is the way it is, but it could have been maybe though. Is it as old (or young) as they say it is? Well, when we look into the universes past by looking way out (13.5-13.7-8 billion years ago, etc) we do seem to see it in a super hot, super dense state maybe, etc? But current newer telescopes might be changing some of that maybe? Telescopes like the JWST for example, etc. It is right now seeing fully formed galaxies where current scientific theories say that there maybe shouldn't be any, or should be none, etc. I'll be keeping a watch on these newer discoveries as they come about, but right now, because of some telescopes like the JWST, many scientists are having to change, or alter, and maybe even in some cases, completely rewrite some of their currently held theories, or ideas, etc.

God Bless.

 

[com7fy8]

the universe right now supposedly expanding,

Well, if it is infinite in all directions . . . expanding might not be a possibility, except in a local part of the universe where we are observing . . . I suppose. My opinion is that God is so great that He exists in all directions without end and He is creative so He has universe created wherever He is. And so, if He is so spacially infinite, so is His tendency to create.

and supposedly with us as the center, etc.

Well, we have God's Son Jesus who has invested in us being here so He can have His Church Bride. So, if there are no other locations where Jesus is doing this, then we might say we are God's center of attention in creation, for His Son who is the real center of His attention. And so we would be the center of what is physically infinite.

And all of this could mean that the umiverse could be infinite and perpetual from this point/time onward maybe, etc.

Infinite, yes, I would say . . . but if God will resurrect this universe into His glorious liberty (Romans 8:20-21) . . . then it will not be perpetual in this present physical state.

Did it start with a BB? I don't know.

God started the universe > "In the beginning" . . . so, yes, there was a Big Beginning!!! And Jesus saw Satan fall to earth like lightning > lightning can be followed by a big bang of thunder. For all I know, there was a thunderous bang of ovation in Heaven when Satan got thrown out. And then all of a sudden Satan found himself on this earth and supposed that big bang of thunderous ovation made this earth and universe.

"I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven." (in Luke 10:18)

So, among other possibilities, you can believe that genes evolved so I could develop the ability to think this up. Or, you can accept that what I am considering is what happened. Or . . . something else. But genes evolving so I could make this up is an "interesting" idea . . . including how supposedly natural selection and survival of the fittest would select me and favor my ability to make such things up. And where did I get this from? Ones in my family feel I'm not in touch with reality; so I didn't get this from their genes, I am willing to consider. lololololololol May be I got a double-recessive screwball gene > but one pair of genes making me able to think this up . . . is an interesting possibility.

But it maybe could have also been started already laid out maybe, and then set into motion maybe, etc.

Well, if science has some things correct, then there are a major bunch of atoms and molecules and energy waves in creation; and God made all the atoms and molecules and energy that make up physical things. And God now is managing every one of these atoms and molecules, and every wavelength. He is so capable and attentive and so fast that He can control and keep track of atoms and molecules and wavelengths in numbers more than we could come close to counting, and He's got track of them all, right now. So, He didn't just push some blob of matter into a few forms and then watch what would happen.

And God is so busy but does not burn out. And He has not changed and does not change. So, He is different than we are.

And He has His purpose . . . to have us living on this earth while God adopts people to become His children and then be changed into the likeness of Jesus >

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29)

So, as I have offered, Jesus is the center of attention, that God brings us to become family . . . "many brethren" . . . of Jesus. This has motivated the creation of this universe. Plus, we see how various living beings are family beings . . . created by our God who is the family love Being > Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

And, right while God is managing every atom and molecule and wavelength and is managing how much and what evil does . . . still, He is keeping His main focus on conforming us to the image of Jesus > and His ministry is so focused >

"Him we also preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. To this end I also labor, striving according to His working which works in me mightily." (Colossians 1:28-29)

Is it as old (or young) as they say it is?

If it started in a supernatural state, it could have changed into an older state which has not been around for much time. In Romans 8:20, our Apostle Paul says >

"For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;" (Romans 8:20)

At first, possibly, it was in a new state, but with the fall of Adam and Eve, creation changed to an old state along with Adam and Eve, maybe so Adam and Eve could relate with it. If it had stayed in a pure and perfect state, it could be that Adam and Eve would not be able to function in it > their sin-oldened senses would not be able to sense what is supernatural and new in condition.

seeing fully formed galaxies where current scientific theories say that there maybe shouldn't be any, or should be none, etc.

Well, if the universe is infinite, I do not think we humans are going to have the ability to see stars so far. But I note how we do have the imagination. It is intriguing for me, how ones can believe that atoms and molecules and energy would evolve to produce us with our ability to be so concerned about such things and to imagine them . . . not what I would think natural selection and survival of the fittest would find needful, and I am not sure physical DNA molecules can have us processing such things. I think our minds and imaginations have a supernatural . . . nonphysical . . . level of function.

 

[Neogaia777]

Well, if it is infinite in all directions . . . expanding might not be a possibility, except in a local part of the universe where we are observing . . . I suppose. My opinion is that God is so great that He exists in all directions without end and He is creative so He has universe created wherever He is. And so, if He is so spacially infinite, so is His tendency to create.

Well, we have God's Son Jesus who has invested in us being here so He can have His Church Bride. So, if there are no other locations where Jesus is doing this, then we might say we are God's center of attention in creation, for His Son who is the real center of His attention. And so we would be the center of what is physically infinite.

Infinite, yes, I would say . . . but if God will resurrect this universe into His glorious liberty (Romans 8:20-21) . . . then it will not be perpetual in this present physical state.

God started the universe > "In the beginning" . . . so, yes, there was a Big Beginning!!! And Jesus saw Satan fall to earth like lightning > lightning can be followed by a big bang of thunder. For all I know, there was a thunderous bang of ovation in Heaven when Satan got thrown out. And then all of a sudden Satan found himself on this earth and supposed that big bang of thunderous ovation made this earth and universe.

"I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven." (in Luke 10:18)

So, among other possibilities, you can believe that genes evolved so I could develop the ability to think this up. Or, you can accept that what I am considering is what happened. Or . . . something else. But genes evolving so I could make this up is an "interesting" idea . . . including how supposedly natural selection and survival of the fittest would select me and favor my ability to make such things up. And where did I get this from? Ones in my family feel I'm not in touch with reality; so I didn't get this from their genes, I am willing to consider. lololololololol May be I got a double-recessive screwball gene > but one pair of genes making me able to think this up . . . is an interesting possibility.

Well, if science has some things correct, then there are a major bunch of atoms and molecules and energy waves in creation; and God made all the atoms and molecules and energy that make up physical things. And God now is managing every one of these atoms and molecules, and every wavelength. He is so capable and attentive and so fast that He can control and keep track of atoms and molecules and wavelengths in numbers more than we could come close to counting, and He's got track of them all, right now. So, He didn't just push some blob of matter into a few forms and then watch what would happen.

And God is so busy but does not burn out. And He has not changed and does not change. So, He is different than we are.

And He has His purpose . . . to have us living on this earth while God adopts people to become His children and then be changed into the likeness of Jesus >

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29)

So, as I have offered, Jesus is the center of attention, that God brings us to become family . . . "many brethren" . . . of Jesus. This has motivated the creation of this universe. Plus, we see how various living beings are family beings . . . created by our God who is the family love Being > Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

And, right while God is managing every atom and molecule and wavelength and is managing how much and what evil does . . . still, He is keeping His main focus on conforming us to the image of Jesus > and His ministry is so focused >

"Him we also preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. To this end I also labor, striving according to His working which works in me mightily." (Colossians 1:28-29)

If it started in a supernatural state, it could have changed into an older state which has not been around for much time. In Romans 8:20, our Apostle Paul says >

"For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;" (Romans 8:20)

At first, possibly, it was in a new state, but with the fall of Adam and Eve, creation changed to an old state along with Adam and Eve, maybe so Adam and Eve could relate with it. If it had stayed in a pure and perfect state, it could be that Adam and Eve would not be able to function in it > their sin-oldened senses would not be able to sense what is supernatural and new in condition.

Well, if the universe is infinite, I do not think we humans are going to have the ability to see stars so far. But I note how we do have the imagination. It is intriguing for me, how ones can believe that atoms and molecules and energy would evolve to produce us with our ability to be so concerned about such things and to imagine them . . . not what I would think natural selection and survival of the fittest would find needful, and I am not sure physical DNA molecules can have us processing such things. I think our minds and imaginations have a supernatural . . . nonphysical . . . level of function.

This is a nice post and I appreciate your taking your time to reply to me with it, and I really do mean that, ok. I very much love Jesus, and my religious/spiritual beliefs, and so just know that I won't ever stray away from those or that, ok. They still (and always will) always remain in tact regardless of whatever else I might learn or believe, and my God that I follow and believe in, actually always, always makes sure of that, and I'm very, very grateful for that, etc.. Jesus, and God the Holy Spirit, and God the Father will always be the center of my whole world in my heart and in my own personal being no matter what, ok. Thankfully as I grew/still do always grow/learn in my knowledge, They have also always provided me with the knowledge I need to also not let it completely destroy my religious and/or spiritual beliefs, or make me doubt my faith, and I am very, very much eternally grateful/thankful for that, etc.

Just a couple of points about what's being talked about right now, and about the universe though, etc. When I said the universe could be infinite, I didn't necessarily mean in it's size necessarily (although the universe is very much mind boggling big, and none of us can know for sure just how big it is, etc) but when I mentioned the universe possibly being infinite, I more meant in about it's possible duration from here on out, or how long it could last from here on out, etc, and that "that" could possibly be infinite from here, etc.

Also, the universe is the same age everywhere, etc. According to current scientific theories, it's 13.7-8 billion years old here where we are at, and it's 13.7-8 billion years old 13.7-8 billion light years out away from us also, etc. But it's just that, when we are looking at a place in the universe that is very, very far away from us, or near to that, etc, due to the time it takes for the light from those places to travel back to us here, or reach our telescopes here, we are actually seeing those places that far back in the past, (or however many light years it is away from us in the universes past, etc), and there is currently no way to change that, etc. No matter what, we will always be seeing things far; to very far; to very, very far away from us, etc, in it's past, etc, however many light years it is away from us always, no matter what, etc. And that same rule is true no matter where you are, or where might be looking out at other places from, in the universe, etc. And then we also have the issue that everything appears to be moving out away from us as the center of the universe and is increasing in it's speed out away from us also, etc, depending on how far out away from us it is, etc. And so this puts some limitations on what we can observe of it, etc, and right now, no one can even think of or conceive of how we are ever going to be able to overcome that, etc.

We can only see so far out or away from us because, at a certain set distance out away from us, what appears to be moving out away from us as the center, begins to exceed the speed of light, making it not observable to or for us at that point, and right now no one knows how we are ever going to be able to ever overcome that, etc. And so for right now, and maybe for a while, or maybe for a very long, long while, etc, we are right now always going to be limited to or by that, etc.

Again, I very much thank you for your post/reply, and for replying to me, ok.

Take Care, and...

God Bless!

 

[SavedByGrace3]