Space expanded before Stars created

[dad]

Since what was stretched out by God was space, the important question is whether that was before the galaxies and stars and all that is in space was in it when it was stretched out. If not, a rethink of red shift in deep space is in order.

Not only are the implications for science startling, but for standard Christian theology. It seems to me that when believers talk or think about the heavens getting stretched out, they envision that happening with all the stars. Is there some reason for that? Any biblical support?

If I try to think of the balloon analogy, and how maybe space was expanded (the expanse) while totally empty (?) and the stars inserted later, that pretty well nixes spacetime as we think of it in deep space.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Since what was stretched out by God was space, the important question is whether that was before the galaxies and stars and all that is in space was in it when it was stretched out. If not, a rethink of red shift in deep space is in order.

Not only are the implications for science startling, but for standard Christian theology. It seems to me that when believers talk or think about the heavens getting stretched out, they envision that happening with all the stars. Is there some reason for that? Any biblical support?

If I try to think of the balloon analogy, and how maybe space was expanded (the expanse) while totally empty (?) and the stars inserted later, that pretty well nixes spacetime as we think of it in deep space.

You start a thread with a post where you say that you are wrong, what was the point? Did you get tired of everyone else refuting you so you took a shortcut and refuted yourself?

 

[AV1611VET]

It seems to me that when believers talk or think about the heavens getting stretched out, they envision that happening with all the stars. Is there some reason for that? Any biblical support?

I believe the heavens were stretched after all creation was finished.

All redshift shows is that the heavens are still expanding, just as the Bible says.

Any biblical support?

Yes ... the word "heavens" is plural.

Meaning the earth's atmosphere, outer space, and Heaven proper are expanding.

In Genesis 1:1, "heaven" is singular; but in Genesis 2:1, after the creation events are complete, "heaven" becomes plural.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Psalm 104:2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:

 

[fargonic]

Since what was stretched out by God was space, the important question is whether that was before the galaxies and stars and all that is in space was in it when it was stretched out. If not, a rethink of red shift in deep space is in order.

AGREED! Let us reconfigure science based on what the ancient Hebrews knew! (We can start with how doctors treat leprosy today...)

Not only are the implications for science startling, but for standard Christian theology.

Actually you are wrong. If Christian Theology is used as the basis for science theology will NOT be altered in any way. Science, however, will be destroyed.

And I think we all understand that that is kinda what many on CF want.

 

[Michael]

Since what was stretched out by God was space, the important question is whether that was before the galaxies and stars and all that is in space was in it when it was stretched out. If not, a rethink of red shift in deep space is in order.

Not only are the implications for science startling, but for standard Christian theology. It seems to me that when believers talk or think about the heavens getting stretched out, they envision that happening with all the stars. Is there some reason for that? Any biblical support?

If I try to think of the balloon analogy, and how maybe space was expanded (the expanse) while totally empty (?) and the stars inserted later, that pretty well nixes spacetime as we think of it in deep space.

I vaguely recall telling you quite some time ago that the only thing that separates your "different state past" and Lambda-CDM is technically just a function of "space expansion rate/time".

Technically in LCDM theory, "space expansion" is not limited to the speed of light in term of expansion rates, and the expansion process begins at the moment of inflation. According to Alan Guth, the author of inflation theory, that "space expansion" process begins at at time when all matter/energy is contained inside of a single object that is smaller than proton. Goodness knows why the whole thing didn't implode due to gravity, but miracle of miracles, it didn't. You technically just need to justify a faster "space (not object) expansion" rate, and you're home free dad.

Of course the redshift pattern doesn't support your young earth creationist idea, nor do your YEC ideas jive with what we understand about radiometric decay rates. In short, you've got lots of other scientific problems to worry about, but your claim about early "space expansion" isn't one of them. Your claimed rate of "space" (not object) expansion is going to run into trouble with the redshift patterns however, since the patterns are derived from a "Hubble constant" which shows a distance/speed/redshift relationship pattern that is far too "low" to meet your YEC needs.

Of course IMO the redshift pattern has absolutely nothing at all to do with expansion. I share Hubble's belief that this redshift observation is related to the transfer of photon momentum to the medium of spacetime, specifically the dust and plasma of spacetime.

 

[Aureus]

Since what was stretched out by God was space, the important question is whether that was before the galaxies and stars and all that is in space was in it when it was stretched out. If not, a rethink of red shift in deep space is in order.

Not only are the implications for science startling, but for standard Christian theology. It seems to me that when believers talk or think about the heavens getting stretched out, they envision that happening with all the stars. Is there some reason for that? Any biblical support?

If I try to think of the balloon analogy, and how maybe space was expanded (the expanse) while totally empty (?) and the stars inserted later, that pretty well nixes spacetime as we think of it in deep space.

You seem to be lost, this is the Science section, not the "post crazy weird theology" section.

 

[dad]

I believe the heavens were stretched after all creation was finished.

All redshift shows is that the heavens are still expanding, just as the Bible says.Yes ... the word "heavens" is plural.

Meaning the earth's atmosphere, outer space, and Heaven proper are expanding.

In Genesis 1:1, "heaven" is singular; but in Genesis 2:1, after the creation events are complete, "heaven" becomes plural.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Psalm 104:2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:

Ok, so looking at the words in Gen 1 we have heaven, and firmament. By chap 2 it is all already finished.

Since God placed the stars in the firmament or heaven, we can translate those I would think as space. Later we see that the earth sky is included when we use the word heavens plural. So I guess we could take either opinion, that the stretch was before or after the stars were here. (or both) I can see how it also would be stretched after the stars were created also!

The implications are startling.

Namely that time was stretched, so that the time science thinks exists out there would not.

 

[Justatruthseeker]

I believe the heavens were stretched after all creation was finished.

All redshift shows is that the heavens are still expanding, just as the Bible says.Yes ... the word "heavens" is plural.

Meaning the earth's atmosphere, outer space, and Heaven proper are expanding.

In Genesis 1:1, "heaven" is singular; but in Genesis 2:1, after the creation events are complete, "heaven" becomes plural.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Psalm 104:2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:

There is no continuing expansion. Re read Genesis 2:1 - finished, done, over, complete.

Redshift is simply the lack of understanding of people that do not understand plasma physics. Take a minute to think about it. The universe is 99% plasma. Plasma physics is not even required reading in astronomy. Would you go to a doctor for advice if in medical school the study of diseases was not even required reading? Or how to set bones, or stitch up a wound?

The reason modern astronomy has 96% ad-hoc assumptions is because they lack any understanding at all of plasma physics in a universe 99% plasma. It's the only so-called science in which when observations falsify your belief you can add "strange matter" and everyone pats you on your back for your brilliance. Never mind no one has a clue what strange matter might be - but it sure does sound cool don't it. Why that must be why the math doesn't work, it's because of strange matter - dark matter - dark energy - dark mystical things because they don't understand the first thing about plasma physics.

http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/1970/alfven-lecture.pdf

"The cosmical plasma physics of today is far less advanced than the thermo-nuclear research physics. It is to some extent the playground of theoreticians who have never seen a plasma in a laboratory. Many of them still believe in formulae which we know from laboratory experiments to be wrong. The astrophysical correspondence to the thermonuclear crisis has not yet come."

This was in 1970 - and they understand even less today about plasma than they did back then - because they are still using those theories we know from laboratory experiments to be wrong back in the 70's.

We already know their mass estimates were orders of magnitude off. Yet they haven't bothered to revise mass estimates in 80 years. Because doing so would also require redoing dark energy estimates - hence impacting expansion theories.

Cosmological redshift has nothing to do with expansion. It is the interaction of light quanta with highly ionized electrons in space.

http://www.newtonphysics.on.ca/hubble/

 

[Justatruthseeker]

You seem to be lost, this is the Science section, not the "post crazy weird theology" section.

Goes hand in hand with strange matter. Or is it you just don't like hearing about God stretching out the heavens while you talk about the heavens stretching out in expansion, before you even thought of it?

 

[Justatruthseeker]

I vaguely recall telling you quite some time ago that the only thing that separates your "different state past" and Lambda-CDM is technically just a function of "space expansion rate/time".

Technically in LCDM theory, "space expansion" is not limited to the speed of light in term of expansion rates, and the expansion process begins at the moment of inflation. According to Alan Guth, the author of inflation theory, that "space expansion" process begins at at time when all matter/energy is contained inside of a single object that is smaller than proton. Goodness knows why the whole thing didn't implode due to gravity, but miracle of miracles, it didn't. You technically just need to justify a faster "space (not object) expansion" rate, and you're home free dad.

Of course the redshift pattern doesn't support your young earth creationist idea, nor do your YEC ideas jive with what we understand about radiometric decay rates. In short, you've got lots of other scientific problems to worry about, but your claim about early "space expansion" isn't one of them. Your claimed rate of "space" (not object) expansion is going to run into trouble with the redshift patterns however, since the patterns are derived from a "Hubble constant" which shows a distance/speed/redshift relationship pattern that is far too "low" to meet your YEC needs.

Of course IMO the redshift pattern has absolutely nothing at all to do with expansion. I share Hubble's belief that this redshift observation is related to the transfer of photon momentum to the medium of spacetime, specifically the dust and plasma of spacetime.

Wrong. Come on Michael. You know if there was a stretching out of the heavens then decay rates occurred differently in the past. Why does the twin age slower? Because he changes as energy is added during acceleration - yes? So as you wind the clock backwards even for the twin - what happens to it? It speeds up - not stays the same rate as he reads at his present velocity. How will the twin calculate his true age if he refuses to speed up his clock for when his velocity was less than it is at present? Answer - he won't - he will get an age far older in present terms than he would otherwise. Don't misunderstand - you will still get billions of years, but they pass in 6,000 of today's time - hence the reason people are confused - they can't grasp that time passed faster in the past then it did at present. This will be true even if expansion stopped shortly after creation and the present velocity remained roughly the same. That they mistake what cosmological redshift is gives no excuse for neglecting what happened when they were stretched out in the beginning to encompass the entire universe.

This is why a day is as a 1000 years to God, because God is energy and energy controls the rate of time.

We are traveling at whatever unknown velocity we attained after expansion - our clocks are now slower than before the expansion began when the earth was created. We must account for that expansion by speeding up our clocks to account for the faster decay rates before and during the expansion process. If time slows to a stop as one nears c - then as one stops velocity all-together - then time passes billions of years in the blink of an eye. You can not calculate one-way only. Your clocks can not slow during acceleration if they were not faster before. To reverse that process you MUST speed your clocks up as you go backwards to account for a slower rate of expansion and none at all before it began. Since an atomic clock slows down under acceleration - decay rates are affected. The twin does not magically age less - he ages less because his decay rate slows as acceleration increases because the atomic structure gains energy. Likewise as acceleration lessens energy is lost and the decay rate increases.

It is a violation of all known physics, let alone if expansion has now stopped or if expansion is still continuing to refuse to speed up those clocks as you go backwards in time. In either view the physics is ignored by both young earth creationists and modern cosmological theory supporters. I don't care if you want expansion to be continuing or if you want it to have finished - in either view you must account for the slowing of those clocks during the period of expansion. And if Guth is correct and it began faster than c - then it must be done exponentially.

 

[dad]

There is no continuing expansion. Re read Genesis 2:1 - finished, done, over, complete.

Even if this were true, the stretching of space before stars were put in would mean space and time were expanded already.

Also, since the stars were made many verses and days before this Gen 2, lots of stretching is possible even after the stars were created! You need more than that.

Redshift is simply the lack of understanding of people that do not understand plasma physics.

If space and time were stretched and change as we go further out in the 'stretched elastic' in space, then redshift need not mean what you claim either.

 

[dad]

Wrong. Come on Michael. You know if there was a stretching out of the heavens then decay rates occurred differently in the past. Why does the twin age slower? Because he changes as energy is added during acceleration - yes?

Joke?

So as you wind the clock backwards even for the twin - what happens to it? It speeds up - not stays the same rate as he reads at his present velocity.

To be clear time is not decay. Decay is something that can happen in time. If space (therefore also time) was stretched out, then that has nothing to do with decay does it? --Especially is there was nothing..no stars or anything in space to decay at the time!

 

[Justatruthseeker]

Even if this were true, the stretching of space before stars were put in would mean space and time were expanded already.

Also, since the stars were made many verses and days before this Gen 2, lots of stretching is possible even after the stars were created! You need more than that.
If space and time were stretched and change as we go further out in the 'stretched elastic' in space, then redshift need not mean what you claim either.

Apparently you really didn't read what I said, or you would not be confusing me with someone that incorrectly believes cosmological redshift is expansion. My God Dad, you are so busy trying to prove everyone is wrong and you are right you don't even realize when someone just argued for you.

Of course you must account for it - what did you think I said??? Your so lost in being too busy claiming everything is wrong you contradict yourself every other post.

The Bible does not say He is continuing to stretch out the heavens. He stretched out the heavens and Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. Finished Dad, not continuing.

There are two explanations to redshift - either it is still continuing or it is interaction of light with electrons in space. I believe the Bible - that He "finished" His work - all of it. This leaves only one valid interpretation - interaction with electrons in space. The density mind you, of which is 30 times more abundant than the experts ever thought possible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulysses_(spacecraft)

"Ulysses discovered that dust coming into the Solar System from deep space was 30 times more abundant than previously expected."

Do you know what we call theories more than 30 times off in science? File 13 material.

We have huge halos of plasma around every galaxy - every source of that light.

https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/chandra/news/H-12-331.html#.Vu89UHpRZdg

http://hubblesite.org/newscenter/archive/releases/2015/15/full/

Mind you - this is plasma at what they call a 2 million degree Kelvin temperature - and does not include plasma down to the temperature of the surface of the sun (5,778 Kelvin) and below, which we still cannot detect yet.

I am accounting for that stretching - and all I ask is that for you to account for it too by speeding up your clocks as you calculate backwards in time. 6,000+ years have passed since man was created - but during those prior 6 days the heavens were stretched and billions of years of decay occurred in those few days, because clocks ticked faster than they do today. Now mind you I am going with your interpretation of the six days of genesis and not the reality - but even in your interpretation of a literal six days - during that stretching clocks were continually slowing down until they reached their present rate.

So yes, man is young, but the earth reads billions because decay rates occurred faster until they slowed under expansion until reaching their present rate. Once energy is added it does not magically go away, but remains constant until speed is changed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_energy

"It is defined as the work needed to accelerate a body of a given mass from rest to its stated velocity. Having gained this energy during its acceleration, the body maintains this kinetic energy unless its speed changes."

I'm arguing for you Dad - not against you.

Now if you have another theory for what it is say so, but a simple it might not be any of those does not cut it with me. It may not be, but if you don't have a better theory I could care less if you refuse to accept it or not. The science fits perfectly with what we observe - so without a valid argument against it or a countering theory - we can all claim anything we want so such is useless in getting anywhere.

 

[Justatruthseeker]

Joke?

Proven science which defeats all the arguments of people trying to argue against it - you just haven't yet grasped that fact that their own science supports you, not them, because your too busy trying to argue against everything.

To be clear time is not decay. Decay is something that can happen in time. If space (therefore also time) was stretched out, then that has nothing to do with decay does it? --Especially is there was nothing..no stars or anything in space to decay at the time!

To be clear time is decay. We measure time by the decay rate of the cesium atom. There were stars present and the earth itself. the earth was created on day one in your version of things. You are confusing the rotation of the earth around its axis with time. If nothing decayed - time would not pass, it would be a meaningless concept as it is to God - because God is immortal - He does not decay. Time does not affect God because God is not subject to decay.

It is clear the stretching of the heavens included the thought of stars, planets, galaxies, everything.

http://biblehub.com/isaiah/45-12.htm

If you just accepted this you could understand why the earth appears to be billions of years old - because decay rates change as velocity increases. As things go faster time slows down - decay rates slow. So as you calculate backwards time speeds up - decay rates happen faster and what seems to be billions of years happens in a mere six days. The solution to your dilemma is right before you - in that very stretching you promote - you just have to accept the science. Again - the science argues for you Dad, not against you. It is those that refuse to accept their own science that are teaching you Fairie Dust. They want you to believe that clocks slow as velocity increases, but then calculate the the past with clocks that tick at today's rate - when they claim it is increasing in acceleration. They can't even accept their own science Dad, because their own science argues against them. They must instead try to double-talk around the very science they claim to accept. Trust the science dad - not what they tell you the science means - especially when they tell you clocks slow under acceleration but then tick the same regardless.

 

[dad]

Apparently you really didn't read what I said, or you would not be confusing me with someone that incorrectly believes cosmological redshift is expansion. My God Dad, you are so busy trying to prove everyone is wrong and you are right you don't even realize when someone just argued for you.

If space was expanded, then that means time also. The redshift simply cannot have the meaning we commonly assign to it there. For example, if it does mean something is going away from us...that would be out in stretched out space and time, where a year is not a year as we know it.

Now you may bash the scientific conception of redshift, but you cannot claim it is actually something else. Whatever you think it is also would have to account for a stretched space and time.

Of course you must account for it - what did you think I said??? Your so lost in being too busy claiming everything is wrong you contradict yourself every other post.

How can you account for it when it may have been stretched to an unknown degree??

The Bible does not say He is continuing to stretch out the heavens. He stretched out the heavens and Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. Finished Dad, not continuing.

Well, maybe so. But I didn't see where it says they do not move still? They move in stretched out space one assumes. Avi had an opinion, and you have one, but it could be both for all we know. In any case long as space and time were stretched in creation before the stars....that means science has zero clue about the actual universe and what things mean like redshift out there. That much we do know!

There are two explanations to redshift - either it is still continuing or it is interaction of light with electrons in space. I believe the Bible - that He "finished" His work - all of it. This leaves only one valid interpretation - interaction with electrons in space. The density mind you, of which is 30 times more abundant than the experts ever thought possible.

Ah, but if there is no time as we know it and space, then we know not what interaction really exists!

"Ulysses discovered that dust coming into the Solar System from deep space was 30 times more abundant than previously expected."

Do you know what we call theories more than 30 times off in science? File 13 material.

We have huge halos of plasma around every galaxy - every source of that light.

Mind you - this is plasma at what they call a 2 million degree Kelvin temperature - and does not include plasma down to the temperature of the surface of the sun (5,778 Kelvin) and below, which we still cannot detect yet.

No!!!!!

No temperature can be know if space was stretched out! If you like, try to tell us in a nutshell how temperature is determined and we'll see.

I am accounting for that stretching - and all I ask is that for you to account for it too by speeding up your clocks as you calculate backwards in time. 6,000+ years have passed since man was created

?? How would I know whether to speed up or slow down my earth clock?? Then by how much? To know that we need to know how time was stretched.

- but during those prior 6 days the heavens were stretched and billions of years of decay occurred in those few days, because clocks ticked faster than they do today. Now mind you I am going with your interpretation of the six days of genesis and not the reality - but even in your interpretation of a literal six days - during that stretching clocks were continually slowing down until they reached their present rate.

Where? On earth? No. Earth was not stretched!

So yes, man is young, but the earth reads billions because decay rates occurred faster until they slowed under expansion until reaching their present rate.

Whoah. That is a mouthful! You claim the reason for decay is a certain thing! Nowunder your idea, why would decay look the same on earth in sn1987a?

"It is defined as the work needed to accelerate a body of a given mass from rest to its stated velocity. Having gained this energy during its acceleration, the body maintains this kinetic energy unless its speed changes."

If God put the moving stars in the stretched out space, forget your kinetic energy.

I'm arguing for you Dad - not against you.

I am trying to make sense of that here.

Now if you have another theory for what it is say so, but a simple it might not be any of those does not cut it with me.

Two bit narrow minded little earth based theories are worthless.We need to KNOW what space and time is like out there FIRST.

 

[dad]

Proven science which defeats all the arguments of people trying to argue against it - you just haven't yet grasped that fact that their own science supports you, not them, because your too busy trying to argue against everything.

Proven science on earth is meaningless in a stretched out space and time. That is like saying you have proof the whole universe has the flu and a runny nose because you show us a tissue from blowing your nose!

To be clear time is decay.

False. Time is time. Decay is decay.

We measure time by the decay rate of the cesium atom.

I know...so? We measure it many ways! That does not mean an alarm clock IS time.

There were stars present and the earth itself. the earth was created on day one in your version of things. You are confusing the rotation of the earth around its axis with time.

No I am not. The earth came days before the stars. Not sure what time you think was involved in the rotation or axis?

If nothing decayed - time would not pass, it would be a meaningless concept as it is to God

How would you know! Try testing that one! Get everything to stop decaying and see if there is still time!

- because God is immortal - He does not decay.

So? That does not mean time=decay!

It is clear the stretching of the heavens included the thought of stars, planets, galaxies, everything.

http://biblehub.com/isaiah/45-12.htm

Yes He stretched out space and the stars. The heavens are where He put the stars!

If you just accepted this you could understand why the earth appears to be billions of years old - because decay rates change as velocity increases.

That is a stretch! By the way what velocity where are you talking about that made radioactive decay change on earth!?

As things go faster time slows down - decay rates slow.

Theory!! We never been anywhere else but earth. The forces that make things move and decay and etc may be less than universal. Even if they were, time is likely not! So you may NOT claim any slowed down decay out there.

So as you calculate backwards time speeds up - decay rates happen faster and what seems to be billions of years happens in a mere six days.

No. Time is unknown to you. You seem to be abusing the word you do not comprehend.

Trust the science dad - not what they tell you the science means - especially when they tell you clocks slow under acceleration but then tick the same regardless.

There IS no science to trust about the far universe and what stretched out space and time would be like.

 

[dad]

But remember, light itself is simply an electromagnetic wave, defined by a wavelength. And it isn’t just the relative motion between a light source and an observer that can change the wavelength of light; a change in spacetime itself can alter that wavelength as well.


http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2011/12/15/goodbye-galaxies/

If the heaven..or space was stretched out, space and time would have been affected. Seems to me science did not account for this.

 

[Michael]

But remember, light itself is simply an electromagnetic wave, defined by a wavelength. And it isn’t just the relative motion between a light source and an observer that can change the wavelength of light; a change in spacetime itself can alter that wavelength as well.


http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2011/12/15/goodbye-galaxies/

If the heaven..or space was stretched out, space and time would have been affected. Seems to me science did not account for this.

Well, technically you seem to grasp the basic concept of LCDM theory, but they do in fact account for this "stretching" process, in fact they use the Hubble constant to estimate the age of the universe.

 

[dad]

Well, technically you seem to grasp the basic concept of LCDM theory, but they do in fact account for this "stretching" process, in fact they use the Hubble constant to estimate the age of the universe.

No, they sure do not. The stretching they envision is imaginary...happening in imaginary time. They need space to have expanded a lot so they invoke great time to accomplish that. If, however, the expanding of space (like the blowing up of the balloon they often talk about) happened in creation week, then it was already expanded before the stars got there! Now what happens if we stick stars in expanded space? Also, what would happen if we stuck stars in expanded space and then there was continues movement or expanding? Seems to me that the tell tale redshift or blueshift would simply not possibly mean what they think. After all if time was stretched, making it less or more or whatever, then how much time was involved in the redshifted light would not equate to the redhift measured on earth or area.

 

[Justatruthseeker]

If space was expanded, then that means time also. The redshift simply cannot have the meaning we commonly assign to it there. For example, if it does mean something is going away from us...that would be out in stretched out space and time, where a year is not a year as we know it.

Now you may bash the scientific conception of redshift, but you cannot claim it is actually something else. Whatever you think it is also would have to account for a stretched space and time.
How can you account for it when it may have been stretched to an unknown degree??

It was stretched, not continuing to stretch. Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. Done, over, finished, complete - hence not ongoing.

I am accounting for it. If you adjust your clocks as you go backwards in time you are accounting for any stretching that was done. Since it was finished after 6 days - in your view - then the effects if now stopped can be accounted for. If I stretch a piece of gum out and then stop stretching it, I can accurate account for its present shape and size by accounting for what occurred during that stretching. Stretched out or not that gum still behaves the same. Waves still transfer through it exactly the same before stretching and after. Only while it is being stretched do the waves behave differently.

Well, maybe so. But I didn't see where it says they do not move still? They move in stretched out space one assumes. Avi had an opinion, and you have one, but it could be both for all we know. In any case long as space and time were stretched in creation before the stars....that means science has zero clue about the actual universe and what things mean like redshift out there. That much we do know!

Sure you saw where it says that - you just want to ignore it. Genesis 2L1 "Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array."

No temperature can be know if space was stretched out! If you like, try to tell us in a nutshell how temperature is determined and we'll see.

Gum stretched out behaves the same as gum not stretched out - only during the process of stretching does the temperature of the gum change from heat added due to the molecules moving.

?? How would I know whether to speed up or slow down my earth clock?? Then by how much? To know that we need to know how time was stretched.

And this is the problem - we don't know, nor can we determine our true velocity in space. Which is why in all my threads I consistently proclaim the age of the universe is unknowable. We have no frame in which to judge just that. But knowing that experimental results show that clocks slow during acceleration - it is an unavoidable fact that they must then speed up as you calculate backwards - being that the rate of expansion was less. It can't slow down if it was never faster to begin with. The very process of slowing down demands that it was once faster.

Where? On earth? No. Earth was not stretched!

I beg to differ!

Ps 136:6 "To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: for his mercy endureth for ever."

Is 42:5 "Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:"

This is why dinosaurs were larger - As velocity increases mass is added - so the earth was once smaller and less massive - so larger life could flourish. As energy was added and mass increased - life became smaller due to the added gravitational force.

Whoah. That is a mouthful! You claim the reason for decay is a certain thing! Nowunder your idea, why would decay look the same on earth in sn1987a?
If God put the moving stars in the stretched out space, forget your kinetic energy.
I am trying to make sense of that here.
Two bit narrow minded little earth based theories are worthless.We need to KNOW what space and time is like out there FIRST.

He didn't put them there after the stretching was finished. He put them there while it was being stretched - they were part of it - just as he stretched out the earth as well.

Ps 136:6 "To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: for his mercy endureth for ever."

Make sense of it then. They were put there while it was being stretched and underwent the effects of being stretched. And hence the earth shows billions of years of decay - because during that process of stretching time has slowed until it has reached our present rate. No, I can not calculate the age of the universe - no one can, because no one knows our true velocity in space because there are no stationary frames in which to compare against. We can only calculate our velocity in respect to another object - also moving at an unknown velocity through space.