Sovereignty and Free Will as it relates to Salvation

[Lukamu]

Is it right to believe that God is responsible for people who reject the gospel and die and go to hell?

Two things to clarify first: God is sovereign and God is all-knowing. The first declares that all power and authority on heaven and Earth belongs to God alone. The second declares that God knows all things past, present, and future.

Now then, how can you believe that God is sovereign and at the same time believe that mankind has a free will? If God knows ahead of time what we will chose, whether or not we will accept His offer of salvation, then logically we can't "choose" the opposite of what God already knows. For example, God knew ahead of time that Judas would betray Jesus, so it is impossible for Judas to use his free will and choose NOT to betray Jesus. Now some of you may say, "But even though it was already known by God, Judas still DID have a choice. God already knew what choice he would make."

Here's a situation to consider to help you think about whether or not Judas really DID have a choice:

Imagine that your house is on fire, and there are two doors to get out of your house. God already knows which door you will use to get out, but you still have the feeling of "choosing" which door your are going to leave through, therefore it is by your own free will that you leave through one door and not the other.

Now imagine that your house is on fire, but there is only one door to get out of your house. Again, God already knows which door you will use to get out, and in this case, so do you. Even though there is only one door, you are still going to "choose" that door, therefore it is by your own free will that you leave through the one door.

Finally, consider this situation. Imagine that you house is on fire, but there are no doors or windows to get out of your house. You are not "choosing" to stay in the burning building, but are forced to stay there because you have no way to get out. Even though you try with all your might (or perhaps resign immediately, it does not matter which), the building will burn to the ground and you with it.

Now, please revisit my original question. Is it right to believe that God is responsible for people who reject the gospel and die and go to hell?

If God foreknows what that person will choose, then it is impossible to choose the opposite. It is like the person who is stuck in a burning house with no doors or windows and dies in the fire without a choice.

 

[Adstar]

You have just delivered a calvinist view of Gods predestination..

I am not a clavinist

God knows the future to the most minute detail.. God foreknows our lives and what our free willed response to his will shall be before we where even born.. But God does not force us to make that decision..

Imagine if you will a time machine. that you could travel through time in.. You get into the machine and travel to 2025 and you are now hovering over a suburb of some city on earth.. The only people you see outside are two little girls and they are sitting down on the ground and having a picnic in their back yard.. The door of the house opens and a woman comes out with a plate of cakes .. Some Chocolate and some strawberry, The Woman offers the girls a cake and one girl takes a chocolate cake and the other takes a strawberry cake.. This is where your future observations end and your machine takes you back to the current day..

Now you foreknow exactly what is going to happen at that house in that suburb 8 years in the future. you know that one girl will select the chocolate cake and another girl is going to select the srawberry cake..

Question.. Did your foreknowledge of their selection Force them to select the cakes they selected.. Or did they select the cakes they wanted by their own free will? Does your foreknowledge of their decisions mean that their decisions suddenly become no longer their decisions but somehow forced actions.. Forced upon them by you?

I would answer No.. God foreknowing what someone is going to do because he has the ability to see all earth history from his eternal perspective which is outside the universe.. Does not mean that God forces people to make their decisions one way or the other..

Remember God made the universe... And part of the universe is universe time.. God who exists in an eternal existence outside this universe is not limited by universe time or universe space.. So he can see all our times from his eternal time..

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

... For example, God knew ahead of time that Judas would betray Jesus, so it is impossible for Judas to use his free will and choose NOT to betray Jesus. Now some of you may say, "But even though it was already known by God, Judas still DID have a choice. God already knew what choice he would make."....

Curing greed needs an ideology shift. So consider that Judas, Esua, all the way back to Eve, taken out of Adam, operated from that nature. Acceptance of something that appeals to a higher calling, namely Love, turns us away from an inexhaustable need to fill greed within to place trust in a hope and promise of greater things. Not that it's no longer the same nature's inherant longing but the ideological shift has placed it in the hands of God to fulfill. There's no instant gratification in that. But the rewards are greater. Still free will, still the old nature with an added focus.

So the choice actually comes down to accepting God's love and somehow God does know who will do that.

 

[Sarah G]

Is it right to believe that God is responsible for people who reject the gospel and die and go to hell?

Two things to clarify first: God is sovereign and God is all-knowing. The first declares that all power and authority on heaven and Earth belongs to God alone. The second declares that God knows all things past, present, and future.

Now then, how can you believe that God is sovereign and at the same time believe that mankind has a free will? If God knows ahead of time what we will chose, whether or not we will accept His offer of salvation, then logically we can't "choose" the opposite of what God already knows. For example, God knew ahead of time that Judas would betray Jesus, so it is impossible for Judas to use his free will and choose NOT to betray Jesus. Now some of you may say, "But even though it was already known by God, Judas still DID have a choice. God already knew what choice he would make."

Here's a situation to consider to help you think about whether or not Judas really DID have a choice:

Imagine that your house is on fire, and there are two doors to get out of your house. God already knows which door you will use to get out, but you still have the feeling of "choosing" which door your are going to leave through, therefore it is by your own free will that you leave through one door and not the other.

Now imagine that your house is on fire, but there is only one door to get out of your house. Again, God already knows which door you will use to get out, and in this case, so do you. Even though there is only one door, you are still going to "choose" that door, therefore it is by your own free will that you leave through the one door.

Finally, consider this situation. Imagine that you house is on fire, but there are no doors or windows to get out of your house. You are not "choosing" to stay in the burning building, but are forced to stay there because you have no way to get out. Even though you try with all your might (or perhaps resign immediately, it does not matter which), the building will burn to the ground and you with it.

Now, please revisit my original question. Is it right to believe that God is responsible for people who reject the gospel and die and go to hell?

If God foreknows what that person will choose, then it is impossible to choose the opposite. It is like the person who is stuck in a burning house with no doors or windows and dies in the fire without a choice.

Great post! This has been on my mind all day but I couldn't think how or where to post about it.
What is really bothering me is the issue of praying for my atheist friends and family to turn to Lord Jesus Christ. I am starting to get a bit tired of it or even resent it a bit because they are generally extremely rude about Christianity and those that follow it. So, I am wondering if there is even any point in praying for them, if they have free will.

Also I am wondering what the point is of the long list I go through in my prayers (a few times a day) of people suffering (persecuted, abused, exploited, oppressed, those in war zones and those fleeing them, homeless, those in poverty, physically sick, carers, mentally ill, addicted, natural disasters...it goes on and on and I feel bad if I leave anyone or group out, (including terrorists, those involved in criminality and violence...) when clearly Jesus Christ is fully aware of all this suffering and misery and is fully in control of all that takes place and it is all part of His divine, perfect plan?

Any insights and help on these two issues would be extremely welcome as I haven't been able to find any clarification online so far and it is disturbing my spiritual life because I feel a resentment creeping into my prayers which is just not okay, obviously.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Great post! This has been on my mind all day but I couldn't think how or where to post about it.
What is really bothering me is the issue of praying for my atheist friends and family to turn to Lord Jesus Christ. I am starting to get a bit tired of it or even resent it a bit because they are generally extremely rude about Christianity and those that follow it. So, I am wondering if there is even any point in praying for them, if they have free will.

Also I am wondering what the point is of the long list I go through in my prayers (a few times a day) of people suffering (persecuted, abused, exploited, oppressed, those in war zones and those fleeing them, homeless, those in poverty, physically sick, carers, mentally ill, addicted, natural disasters...it goes on and on and I feel bad if I leave anyone or group out, including terrorists, those involved in criminality and violence...) when clearly Jesus Christ is fully aware of all this suffering and misery and is fully in control of all that takes place and it is all part of His divine, perfect plan?

Any insights and help on these two issues would be extremely welcome as I haven't been able to find any clarification online so far and it is disturbing my spiritual life because I feel a resentment creeping into my prayers which is just not okay, obviously.

It can't be good to have resentment over prayer given for others in any case scenerio ... the only insight that I may be able to provide you is that imo prayer is needed when discernment demands. Or when things are brought to mind that you know only God is able to help because you have done all that is humanly possible and within your means to do for them yourself as God has so directed. Much like the disciples were able to help many but other things can only be done thru prayer and fasting. Prayer provides a means for God to work in others lives and avails much. I often awake at night with someone in mind for no known reason to me that I'll pray for. I figger that God must have His own reasons. I have no verse to give that discernment is the reason for prayer but it's my belief that it's why we have discernment to start with and it's obedience to Him to go to Him in prayer when He gives us what to prayer about.

 

[Sarah G]

It can't be good to have resentment over prayer given for others in any case scenerio ... the only insight that I may be able to provide you is that imo prayer is needed when discernment demands. Or when things are brought to mind that you know only God is able to help because you have done all that is humanly possible and within your means to do for them yourself as God has so directed. Much like the disciples were able to help many but other things can only be done thru prayer and fasting. Prayer provides a means for God to work in others lives and avails much. I often awake at night with someone in mind for no known reason to me that I'll pray for. I figger that God must have His own reasons. I have no verse to give that discernment is the reason for prayer but it's my belief that it's why we have discernment to start with and it's obedience to Him to go to Him in prayer when He gives us what to prayer about.

That speaks to me, yes. Thank you, discernment is something I should practice more. I should be more surrendered, connected and (Holy) Spirit led in my prayers and other activities.

 

[Lukamu]

Great post! This has been on my mind all day but I couldn't think how or where to post about it.
What is really bothering me is the issue of praying for my atheist friends and family to turn to Lord Jesus Christ. I am starting to get a bit tired of it or even resent it a bit because they are generally extremely rude about Christianity and those that follow it. So, I am wondering if there is even any point in praying for them, if they have free will.

Also I am wondering what the point is of the long list I go through in my prayers (a few times a day) of people suffering (persecuted, abused, exploited, oppressed, those in war zones and those fleeing them, homeless, those in poverty, physically sick, carers, mentally ill, addicted, natural disasters...it goes on and on and I feel bad if I leave anyone or group out, (including terrorists, those involved in criminality and violence...) when clearly Jesus Christ is fully aware of all this suffering and misery and is fully in control of all that takes place and it is all part of His divine, perfect plan?

Any insights and help on these two issues would be extremely welcome as I haven't been able to find any clarification online so far and it is disturbing my spiritual life because I feel a resentment creeping into my prayers which is just not okay, obviously.

Thanks for replying, it's good to know that there are other people stuck in this same dilemma. I've had two family members die in the last two years, and neither were Christians, so it has been a real challenge to my faith. I also pray for other friends and family members, but it doesn't seem like it has any effect.

Like you, I'm also struggling with the point of prayer. I've sort of given up asking for things (except for forgiveness!) and just use prayer as a way to communicate my thoughts and feelings directly to God. I am starting to think that it's ineffective to "pray for rain" or "pray for a miracle" etc. and here's why: God will do whatever He will do because He is sovereign. In other words, why should my prayers influence God's plan? I know that it's not exactly the best posture on prayer, so I'm trying to figure it out too. That's just where I'm at right now.