Sovereign or not

Tenebrae

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This is an issue I have been struggling with since being on medical placement. Please dont use it as an opportunity to bash others beliefs or I will ask for the thread to be closed.

I struggle with the idea of a God who is sovereign supposedly in charge of everything. Yet if that is the case, it is the same God who allows a person to end up with end stage ovarian cancer, their time on earth going from months and years to weeks and months. The patient is in their mid 40s

Or the man who ends up drowning in his own fluids from pulmonary odema, as well as chronic renal faiure

I could go on.


God is sovereign, if that is the case, then why does He allow such horribleness and cruelty
 
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Spock49

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God is sovereign as He is supreme ruler but He does not control everything. If God controlled everything and everything that happened is in His plan or will then we would have to blame God for every murder, rape, war etc...
It's kind of like a president being sovereign over his country... He is supreme ruler and has a military and police force that is sent to enforce the laws of the land - but even then, laws are still broken and the president doesn't control everything.
As the people of God, we are to be His police force in a way... We are to enforce the will of God in the Earth by laying hands on the sick, casting out devils etc...
I agree with disciple, that the horrible things that happen in life are a result of mankind's fallen state. I am convinced that it is not God's will for people to suffer... That's why He sent His son to suffer and die for us.
 
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MrBojangles

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I understand completely.
I have a brother who was just diagnosed with colon cancer. This is not going to be a pleasant ride for him. He starts treatment tomorrow. I and my other (3rd) brother have been trying to witness to him about the goodness and love of God, and now this!

Anyways....

Yes. God is sovereign. But I question whether the word "sovereign" means "in control." I am sovereign over my home. I can determine many things if I choose. But in many area I just allow things to happen. I let them take their free course. I do not direct and control every aspect of meals, or furniture arraignment, or college placement. Some things I direct and allow others to play out. I can step in if I choose because I AM sovereign in my home. But I do not always choose to step in. But my point is this.. God is sovereign, but His activity in the world is on the basis of intervention, not control. He is not controlling everything... but because He is sovereign He can intervene. Therefore, if we want to understand God, we need to realize that the only events that have meaning are those when God intervenes. The things He "allows" have no meaning when it comes to defining or understanding Him. It is only in His interventions that we can see Him act and see what He is like. Salvation is an intervention. He moved on our behalf and intervened into the normal course of things. He sent Jesus to die for us and so that we would raise up together with Him into newness of life. Intervention. From this we see His nature and will toward us. The course of nature that would of landed us in the bad place does not reflect His will toward us. It is not His will that any should perish. It is His intervention that defines His will... not the course of nature.
So when it comes to sickness and other horrible things, I think that the course of nature is the norm. I mean to say that these things are ALL allowed by course of nature in this fallen world. And because they are all allowed by course of nature, we cannot attach any significance to them regarding God and His will. He allows EVERYTHING to happen, so no individual event has any significance. We have to assume He wants us all saved, healed, and delivered. I cannot imagine it any other way. That is a faith element for me. So we can be saved, healed, and delivered from them, but in each case, an intervention is required.
Now if He were in control as some suggest, and He was micromanaging every single event in the universe, then every terrible thing that happened would have significance. Nothing would be random. Everything would happen according to His will for some purpose. This, I think, is the hole in which many good saints find themselves. They want to believe that God is "in control" of every element of their lives. This is what they base their faith upon. It comforts them to think this. So when a terrible thing happens in our lives - what is their answer?

"I do not know why... but 'God is in control'!"

This makes them feel better... and that is ok... but it really leaves a bad taste in our mouth doesn't it (hence your OP)? Somewhere down inside we wonder. So what I describe above is my answer. I think it is scriptural. It works for me. I realize that bad things happen by course of nature in a fallen word, and God is present to intervene when we need Him.
Hope this makes sense.
Peace



This is an issue I have been struggling with since being on medical placement. Please dont use it as an opportunity to bash others beliefs or I will ask for the thread to be closed.

I struggle with the idea of a God who is sovereign supposedly in charge of everything. Yet if that is the case, it is the same God who allows a person to end up with end stage ovarian cancer, their time on earth going from months and years to weeks and months. The patient is in their mid 40s

Or the man who ends up drowning in his own fluids from pulmonary odema, as well as chronic renal faiure

I could go on.


God is sovereign, if that is the case, then why does He allow such horribleness and cruelty
 
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JSGuitarist

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This is an issue I have been struggling with since being on medical placement. Please dont use it as an opportunity to bash others beliefs or I will ask for the thread to be closed.

I struggle with the idea of a God who is sovereign supposedly in charge of everything. Yet if that is the case, it is the same God who allows a person to end up with end stage ovarian cancer, their time on earth going from months and years to weeks and months. The patient is in their mid 40s

Or the man who ends up drowning in his own fluids from pulmonary odema, as well as chronic renal faiure

I could go on.


God is sovereign, if that is the case, then why does He allow such horribleness and cruelty

I wish I had a perfect answer for that. Why did He ever let Adam and Eve eat the fruit in the Garden? He knew about it, He knew what they would do, He could have stopped it, but He didn't. It wasn't out of His power. Ultimately, nothing is.

At the same time, I don' think God is worried what we think of that. He went through with it, after all. He wasn't afraid to let people soil His name because of it.

The only thing I can think of why He would let these things be is because you need shadows to appreciate light. No picture works if there are only bright colors. The sun can't be appreciated until you've stumbled around the dark. That's a subjective answer I know, but I can only trust that God has let these things happen so that His own glory can show brighter. Paul couldn't rejoice in the grace of God until through his weakness he could see the power of God exhibited (2 Corinthians 12:9).

Perhaps so that He can show greater mercy to the vessels prepared for glory as in Romans 9:22-23. I don't think He is wicked to do that, as God never coerced Adam and Eve to eat the fruit, though He allowed it. By our own decision we rebel against God. And every day by our own doing we prove that we are deserving of the curse on our bodies. If anything, by our own daily sins, we heap on ourselves a greater deserving of these physical curses. Yet the fact that God diminishes their effects at all is a great act of mercy. Were He to send the whole human race to hell, He would have been justified; but God, even in our worst of our days, has given us more than we deserve. I don't think you can appreciate heaven until you have passed by the gates of hell.

It's true and Biblical that God has complete power, and there is nothing that He can't do, that nothing catches Him by surprise, and none can justly say that what He does or allows is unjust. I think it's revolting to our flesh to think that God has so much power over our lives, and we begin to doubt why He seems so (relatively) silent when He has so much power. But at the same time, know that He uses that same sovereignty for an incredible good for His sheep that no one can comprehend, and His perfect power over everything guarantees the absolute best outcome for you, one of His beloved whom He purchased. Keep your eyes there, and that this same sovereignty which allows Him to do as He pleases, without regard to human input and without restraint, without exception, is at the same time being used in ways you can't comprehend, for a good you couldn't imagine, because He loves you so deeply. :)

Romans 8:28-39
 
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Faulty

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I struggle with the idea of a God who is sovereign supposedly in charge of everything. Yet if that is the case, it is the same God who allows a person to end up with end stage ovarian cancer, their time on earth going from months and years to weeks and months. The patient is in their mid 40s

She's lasted over 40 years longer than one of my children. In fact, she's probably lasted longer that most of the people ever born into this world. How is that unjust exactly?

God does what He pleases and always does what is right in every circumstance, no matter what it may seem to us. He's under no obligation to share His reasonings in every matter.

I don't know why my child died, but I do know that my child is with my God and that makes me exceedingly grateful for such a wonderful God.

The scripture teaches that we are here and then we are gone and we've been given no promise to live for a certain period of time. We can't say that just because everyone don't live to a ripe old age that God is unjust, especially when we've been warned that death could come at anytime.
 
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Paul says the sufferings of the present time are not worthy to be compared with the Glory that shall be revealed in us.

I would say when we get to the other side and see just how wonderful God and His presence truly is, that we are going to look back and think this was nothing.
 
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Tenebrae

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Exisiting while bit by bit her body give up on her? 4 or 40, or 80, it doesnt make it suck any less. I think a person would have to be a compassionless shrew to not find


She's lasted over 40 years longer than one of my children. In fact, she's probably lasted longer that most of the people ever born into this world. How is that unjust exactly?
a 40 year old woman, who will leave behind 3 children, who unless the family steps up will end up in the foster system. How is that just.

God does what He pleases and always does what is right in every circumstance, no matter what it may seem to us. He's under no obligation to share His reasonings in every matter.
this description reminds me more of an abusive spouse, than a benevolent deity who claims to love us more than life itself.

we've been given no promise to live for a certain period of time. We can't say that just because everyone don't live to a ripe old age that God is unjust, especially when we've been warned that death could come at anytime.
Are Gods shoulders that small, that he cant take one of his creation questioning something that on the surface appears so incredibly cruel its not funny. Another example, found out this morning one of my workmates a 17 year old girl, (one of the part timers) was airlifted to hospital with bacterial meningitis, she had both legs amputated below the knee yesterday, and is back to theatre today to have her right arm amputated. She has very staunch faith in Jesus Christ, yet all of a sudden her life is completely turned upside down.
 
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Faulty

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Exisiting while bit by bit her body give up on her? 4 or 40, or 80, it doesnt make it suck any less. I think a person would have to be a compassionless shrew to not find


a 40 year old woman, who will leave behind 3 children, who unless the family steps up will end up in the foster system. How is that just.

Who is compassionless in this matter? It's one thing to have compassion on the suffering, which we do, but it's a completely different thing to claim God is unjust because of it. Who are you to declare God unjust?

If she is a believer, then she should know already that if she is to go home, then it is the appointed time to go. Now is the time for her to pray in faith that He take care of her family in the way He deems best, which He will, then when she sees Him face to face, she can get the full story on exactly what His plan is.

If she is not a believer, then the argument is moot.

this description reminds me more of an abusive spouse, than a benevolent deity who claims to love us more than life itself.

Are Gods shoulders that small, that he cant take one of his creation questioning something that on the surface appears so incredibly cruel its not funny.

Have you never come to grips with Romans 9?

"What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?" Romans 9:14-24​
Another example, found out this morning one of my workmates a 17 year old girl, (one of the part timers) was airlifted to hospital with bacterial meningitis, she had both legs amputated below the knee yesterday, and is back to theatre today to have her right arm amputated. She has very staunch faith in Jesus Christ, yet all of a sudden her life is completely turned upside down.

And if her faith is real, it will endure this trial and God will use it for her good as He promised (Rom 8:28). Please, for her sake, stay clear of her so you don't spread your doubt. This is a time for her to draw towards God and not be fed your doubt. For both your sakes, don't place yourself in the middle of that, even inadvertently.
 
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Simon_Templar

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Tenebrae,

People have been asking, and answering this question for millenia. As long as mankind has been on the earth, this question has been tossed back and forth.

There are answers that are probably true, but they never satisfy those asking the question.
In the end it comes down to this...

Will you trust God, or won't you?
will you submit yourself to God, even if he kills you?
 
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dkbwarrior

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God is sovereign, but He is not in control of what happens on this planet, man is, specifically, the church.

The priests came to Jesus one time to ask Him where He got the authority to do the things He did.

1And it came to pass, that on one of those days,
as he taught the people in the temple, and preached the gospel,
the chief priests and the scribes came upon him with the elders,
2And spake unto him, saying,
Tell us, by what authority doest thou these things?
or who is he that gave thee this authority?
-Luke 20:1-2​

Jesus told them that if they answered a question for Him first then He would answer them. He asked if Johns baptism was from God or man. They were afreid to answer so Jesus said He would not answer their question either. Then He immediately told a parable about authority. To bad the Priests did not have ears to hear, or they would have understood that He answered their question anyway.

8And Jesus said unto them,
Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.
9Then began he to speak to the people this parable;
A certain man planted a vineyard, and let it forth to husbandmen,
and went into a far country for a long time.
10And at the season he sent a servant to the husbandmen,
that they should give him of the fruit of the vineyard:
but the husbandmen beat him, and sent him away empty.
11And again he sent another servant:
and they beat him also, and entreated him shamefully,
and sent him away empty.
12And again he sent a third:
and they wounded him also, and cast him out.
13Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do?
I will send my beloved son:
it may be they will reverence him when they see him.
14But when the husbandmen saw him,
they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir:
come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.
15So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him.
What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them?
16He shall come and destroy these husbandmen,
and shall give the vineyard to others.
-Luke 20:8-16​

Now, this was specifically a reference to the blessing of Abraham, and the promised land. But it was also a reference to the garden of eden, and the entire world because the pomised land was not just the land of Palestine. Abraham was promised the world:

13For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world,
was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law,
but through the righteousness of faith.
-Romans 4:13​

The blessing of Abraham was all the promises given to his seed, the Jews, which of course is all the promises of the Bible, because the Bible was written only by Jews, the descendants of Abraham, the seed that He promised to bless. Those promises outline a plan by God to take back the authority that Adam had given to satan in the garden of eden, and give the world back to mankind.​

When that Word, (those promises) became flesh, and we called Him Jesus, He was not a servant of sin. Therefore He walked fully in the authority of the first Adam, satan was not His lord, nor did death riegn over Him as it had over all humanity since the garden.​

In fact, Jesus once told us the disciples why He could do the things He did. And it wasn't because He was the son of God. It was because He was the son of man. That is, the son of Adam.​


26For as the Father hath life in himself;
so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also,
because he is the Son of man.
-John 5:26-27​

You see, only man has authority on this planet, until the lease period runs out. God cannot interfere, any more than you can break into your neighbors house and take away their cigarettes and drugs. He has the power to intervene, but because He is not a liar, He cannot lie, and it is impossible for God to lie, He will not take back or violate the dominion that He gave to Adam.

It is up to the church to take it back, peice by piece, until death is fianlly defeated. WE have the power to defeat death, as the body of Christ, becasue we are the sons of Adam as our Lord was/is. And when we became born again, we were reinstated into the authority of Adam, given back the keys of the kindom, reigning over death.

God allows nothing, we the church do. We argue about doctrine and why God doesn't just DO something, and all the while He is waiting for us to do it. It is not His fault, it is ours, mine included. Jesus is seated at the fight hand of the Father until His enemies be made His footstool. And the last enemy to be defeated is death. Please, tell me, who is going to defeat death for Him, so that He can get up and come back to get us, if He isn't going to do it?

WE, His body, that is who; it is our duty, and it will happen, though some may be dragged along into their authority, kicking and screaming and biting and scratching. Still, they will come, if they love Jesus, or they will be cast into outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Peace...
 
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SUNSTONE

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If God was in control, then why would He tell you to not sin, or to do this or that?
If He was in control, He wouldn't say anything He would just do it, or He would just control you.

When Christians work together and live life exactly like Jesus taught us to live it, then this world would be wonderful, bad situations would be awesome chances to work the gifts of the spirit.
But Christians rarely do that, and so the results of that are what you see today.
 
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Ajax 777

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If God was in control, then why would He tell you to not sin, or to do this or that?
If He was in control, He wouldn't say anything He would just do it, or He would just control you.

No, that's wrong. GOD is in control -- and has, along with HIS breath of life,
set before us blessings and curses, life and death, desiring that we choose blessings, that we choose life.

This is what is pleasing to HIM...that we have the faith to be obedient to HIM, despite having "other options."

The doctrine that by allowing us to choose our way, GOD somehow stepped off the Throne is a lie.
HE is in control --- and there is none HIS arm cannot save, and that to the uttermost.
 
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SUNSTONE

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No, that's wrong. GOD is in control -- and has, along with HIS breath of life,
set before us blessings and curses, life and death, desiring that we choose blessings, that we choose life.

This is what is pleasing to HIM...that we have the faith to be obedient to HIM, despite having "other options."

The doctrine that by allowing us to choose our way, GOD somehow stepped off the Throne is a lie.
HE is in control --- and there is none HIS arm cannot save, and that to the uttermost.

He's not in control of my actions, but He is the leader.
 
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I struggle with the idea of a God who is sovereign supposedly in charge of everything. Yet if that is the case, it is the same God who allows a person to end up with end stage ovarian cancer, their time on earth going from months and years to weeks and months. The patient is in their mid 40s
Or the man who ends up drowning in his own fluids from pulmonary odema, as well as chronic renal faiure
God is sovereign, if that is the case, then why does He allow such horribleness and cruelty



Hi Tenebrae,

At some point I think all of us have to face this question as the experience of pain and disease is universal.

I've been asking myself this question my whole life. I've had a form of muscular dystrophy - something I certainly never asked for.

Did God do it to me? After all these years the conclusion I've settled on is that there is a paradox. I do not think He did this to me. Is God in control? Definitely. God is greater than matter and all the material objects we see. He created us and He is outside of time and space. He has no limitations and He knows everything that will happen in the whole universe - to the very tiniest molecule.

At the same time He cares for us with great intensity. As Jesus said,
Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.—Matthew 10:29-31
Since we are fallen creatures we were essentially given a death sentence at birth. Our DNA is corrupted. 100% of all human beings have corrupted DNA that at some point will cause our deaths.

So, in a sense, God has programmed it into us - we are going to get sick and we are going to die. It's impossible to escape. It's a part of the curse.

So God is definitely in control. But God being in control doesn't mean

A) We've lost our free will. We have power in our own lives to make choices.

B) God will stop every sickness and disease. He does at times step into time and do miracles. But eventually we will wither away and perish.

C) That God doesn't care about us. Even Jesus our Savior and Lord suffered during this life growing up in poverty eventually suffering a terrible death by torture and dying. (Then of course rising again)

Is God in control? Thank God He most definitely is.
 
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zaksmummy

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Tenebrae, you have yourself suffered a great deal in your life, some of which you have shared here. As you look back now do you ask if God was sovereign at those times?

I sure your answer would be yes, God was in control through it all. The same is true in physical illness.
 
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This is an issue I have been struggling with since being on medical placement. Please dont use it as an opportunity to bash others beliefs or I will ask for the thread to be closed.

I struggle with the idea of a God who is sovereign supposedly in charge of everything. Yet if that is the case, it is the same God who allows a person to end up with end stage ovarian cancer, their time on earth going from months and years to weeks and months. The patient is in their mid 40s

Or the man who ends up drowning in his own fluids from pulmonary odema, as well as chronic renal faiure

I could go on.


God is sovereign, if that is the case, then why does He allow such horribleness and cruelty



I think that the general category that you are describing is injustice. What comes to mind is the passage from Isaiah 58 about fasting. I have heard the things described in this chapter as works of justice. It really changed my perspective years ago when I heard it taught that helping the poor is a work of justice. In plain words it is setting things right the way they should be.
healing the sick and setting people free from afflictions are works of justice because as you mentioned , it shouldn't be that way. Something feels wrong about it.


Isa 58:5 Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the LORD?
Isa 58:6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?
Isa 58:7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?
Isa 58:8 Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward.



With that said , what you are asking for is G-d's justice . The best explanation I have heard is that G-d delays His full justice upon the earth for the sake of those who may yet repent and be saved. In other words , to solve all injustice immeadiately , which G-d could do would also require Him immeradiately judging sin with hell and death for the unsaved.

My answer is G-d limits his sovreignty to delay His wrath upon sin. Notice in heaven , there is no sickness or injustice. In heaven G-d's kingdom is in full control and G-d is fully just.
 
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