fwGod said:
i hope you dont mind if i put in my 2cents regarding your post..?
No problem at all
your not saying that the non jewish views is where Jesus got the parable, are you?
because if that is what your saying.. i disagree.
I am saying that Jesus was addressing a view of Hades that was around, yes.
if they did then it was because that is what death looked like. as one who is but sleeping.
when Jesus was asked to come minister to a little girl. she had died. now, Jesus said that she was asleep.
the disciples thought he meant really just napping. but Jesus straightly said that she was dead.
why did Jesus bother to tell them plainly the difference? because its not hard to wake up a person who's just napping. but the miracle is that much greater when the dead person is arisen from the lower part of sheol back to the body.
Except that He never said anything about the lower part of sheol. He just said she was dead. And that I agree with.
the people of the old testament were not given revelation concerning the after life. but only that they had one. however.. it now brings to mind the incident when king saul went to a woman to call up the dead prophet.
and the question arises.. who was the man who appeared to be the dead prophet?
A good question. I will post Saul and the witch of endor in a bit. The preview is that people were forbidden to consult those with familiar spirits for a reason.
Now as to whether nothing is said of the afterlife, or the state of those who are dead in the OT, is it that nothing is said, or that you cant reconcile what is said?
the dogs didnt harass him. they were the only ones who would even attempt to comfort him by licking his wounds.
Yes, I think you may be right on that one.
its my belief that abraham's role was every bit true. more scripture on that as the post progresses.
Ok, but I didn't see other texts to back up Abraham's role.
you dont address why abraham was in charge of the righteous dead.. is it because you consider it useless fluff to the parable?
Not at all. I consider it Jesus using "father" Abraham becuase he is a key figure to the Jews. Abraham was the one they looked to, and took pride in being a son of. So when the man was on the other side of Abraham it set all his expectations on their head. They believed physical lineage was the key to being a son of Abraham. Jesus is showing otherwise. (Note the narratives on the son of your father the devil vs. being sons of Abraham. Also note John the Baptist saying do not think to say that you are sons of Abraham, for God can raise up from the stones sons for Abraham.
is it so strange to consider that Jesus is in the parable revealing a mostly unknown fact concerning the afterlife?
It is not strange, no. It is only strange when it doesnt match up with other passages.
upper sheol is not heaven. it is what abraham said it was. a compartment above and separate from the lower part.
And again, this is the only place where you can give hard evidence that such a place would even exist.
people were not allowed to go into heaven until after Jesus had been raised from the dead. it was then that he "lead captivity captive" eph4.. up into heaven. heb.12 refers to those there as "the spirits of just men made perfect." and Paul revealed that to those who die in Christ after his resurrection.. they go to be with the Lord, in heaven. phil.1:23
- I will deal with Phil. After this as well.
- Ephesians 4 is a much debated topic. It could refer to those who were resurrected at Jesus crucifixion. It could refer to the notion that Jesus was the victor, as in ancient times, carrying his vanquished foes behind Him in His chariot (the usual meaning of captives, and more in line with the text and the culture). The emphasis in the passage is on the giving of gifts, primarily the Spiritual gifts.
- The reference in Hebrews 12 is a comparison between the OT covenant mountain, and the New Jerusalem Mount Zion. Just as the people assembled at the mountain, now these Christians are seen as gathered around that mountain before God and the angels. But let me ask, are the people he is writing to in heaven? No, but they are seen as assembled. So he is apparently using this much the same way as he does when he says come boldly before the throne of grace.
through the parable i believe that Jesus was giving more revelation there that the torment, the thirst, the desire to get relief is so. whether we fully comprehend it or not.
Actually, I dont dispute that part of it. There will be torment, and fire and suffering at the final judgement in the lake of fire.
and Jesus said of the rich man.. luke 16:9-20 "there was a certain man.." also stated luke14:16; 15:11; acts9:10; 18:7 certain indicates that these people are real. the poor man, and the rich man are real.
And he also said there was a certain widow when it was clearly said to be a parable. So that phrase is really a precedent for a parable, than for reality.
as i understand the word, the grave is 6 ft under. where the body is laid and covered with dirt. or put in a tomb.
sheol, a.k.a. 'abraham's bosom' by the perimeters Jesus gives shows that its much more than just someplace to put a dead body.
In the Greek concept, which had become prevalent, yes. But not in the biblical concept of sheol. There was no place where people were mindful of God or anything else:
Psa 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of you; in Sheol who will give you praise?
Ecc 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going. [/quote]
Psa 88:9 my eye grows dim through sorrow. Every day I call upon you, O LORD; I spread out my hands to you.
Psa 88:10 Do you work wonders for the dead? Do the departed rise up to praise you? Selah.
Psa 88:11 Is your steadfast love declared in the grave, or your faithfulness in Abaddon?
Psa 88:12 Are your wonders known in the darkness, or your righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?
Notice also the famous prophecy:
Psa 16:10 For you will not abandon my soul to Sheol, or let your holy one see corruption.
Corruption and sheol are tied together in the Hebrew parallelism. Jesus was not abandoned to the grave to see corruption.
perhaps the destroy part is held off for an as yet later time. and you are trying to mash them together.
It is a later time. I am simply showing that this does not fit all of Jesus own statements if it is taken literally. The lake of fire is at the end of time. However, it is both body and soul that Jesus says is destroyed.
Nor does the passage in Luke say anything about a spirit being tormented ,but says he was in hell.
what is your understanding on this question.. was Jesus there body and soul in that place when he preached to those in upper sheol?
I assume you are speaking of I Peter 3.
Any look at a decent commentary will note that interpretations vary on this text. There are several questions that any expositor must ask.
A. What is the relation of the story of the spirits in prison to Peter's main point....suffering, as Christ suffered.
B. who are the spirits?
C. What is the prison? How did they wind up there?
D. When did Jesus preach to them? How did Jesus preach to them? What did Jesus preach to them? Why did Jesus preach to them?
G. What does it mean for Jesus to be made alive by the Spirit?
H. How does this part of the passage relate to Peter's comments directly after this that speak of our actions in the body, etc?
These are all big questions. I don't know if the Bible actually answers all of them.
We have to look at the text phrase by phrase to see whether it is really saying that Jesus went to preach during His death.
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit
First of all, we can say that Jesus was put to death, and buried, most everyone agrees on the basics of that statement.
But then what does it mean when it says that He was raised by the Spirit? The form is a dative. It could be instrumentality (by the Spirit). It could be in the Spirit. For that matter we are told that we will have a spiritual body at the resurrection, and Jesus body was not completely like ours after His resurrection.
through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built
Jesus went to preach....through the Spirit.
This is not too foreign an idea since Jesus told his disciples that he would not leave them as orphans, but would send the Spirit so that He could be where they were.
JN 14:15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever-- 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me
What did He preach? Why ? Etc. we don't know.
Now one can assume that these were human spirits, but that doesn't necessarily follow. In fact, Peter makes mention of spirits in prison. And they are not human. We see a reference to them in Jesus' ministry as well.
2PE 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment...
Here the word Tartarus is translated hell. We see mention of a similar place in Jesus' dealings with demons.
Luke 8: 28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell at his feet, shouting at the top of his voice, "What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, don't torture me!" 29 For Jesus had commanded the evil spirit to come out of the man. Many times it had seized him, and though he was chained hand and foot and kept under guard, he had broken his chains and had been driven by the demon into solitary places. Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" "Legion," he replied, because many demons had gone into him. 31 And they begged him repeatedly not to order them to go into the Abyss.
If Peter makes reference to spirits in prison that are not human, why do we assume these are when it other places speaks of sheol as a place of silence?
who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built
This brings up two issues:
1. Timing - did Jesus preach to them through the Spirit during that time? Through Noah? Later? After His resurrection? It is all unclear. And for that matter, it is unclear what Peter is talking about at all. However, I would submit that this was a nice segue into Peter's comparison with baptism. And the immediate context, connected as it is with the discussion of Jesus' death, could be taken to mean that He went soon after His death. But the timing issue is really all up in the air.
2. Who were these spirits? What happened around the time of Noah? We don't know that either. Although there is one speculative answer. And note, I said speculative...I don't say this as doctrine at all. There is a text that some people feel is speaking of spirits, that occurred around the time of the flood, and might be something that would call for judgment by God, just as he judged the earth with floods:
GE 6:1 When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days will be a hundred and twenty years." The Nephilim were on the earth in those days--and also afterward--when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.
Now of course we have probably all heard varying takes on this one too, because it too is a difficult passage. But if we take them to be spirits, they could well be these, who were disobeying in the days before Noah's flood.
My point is, there is a lot of information that none of us know about this text. But what we do know is that
a. It speaks of Jesus death, and resurrection by the Spirit. He also preached by means of the Holy Spirit.
b. Peter's other reference to spirits in prison is in relation to evil angels. And given there are not direct statements in scripture about human spirits in prison, it seems like the safe way to interpret this unusual passage is that he is referring to the angels he mentioned at another time
is anyone's body nowdays taken directly to heaven/or hell when the person dies?
As you notice from the prophecy above, Jesus was in the grave, but was not abandoned to corruption.
And no, peoples bodies are not taken there, which is the point. They will be at the end of time though. Nowhere does it say in Revelation or anywhere else that it will be the SPIRIT in hell, but everything, body and spirit.
how bout when Jesus Himself was resurrected? did the relatives of the rich man believe?
The relatives were simply the Pharisees who did not believe Jesus though Moses testified of Him. And no, they tried to put the real Lazarus to death, and killed Jesus. Which was exactly Jesus point. A man being raised from the dead would not convince them.
did the whole world at that time believe? how many people since his resurrection and up to today and up to the millienium.. will believe or not?
I dont follow you here.
then why did Jesus include them?
For the same reason Paul quoted poets of his day. Because the ideas were familiar to the people.
also.. do you then deliberately not address the scriptures that speak of after death from the epistles?
i can only think that its because it disproves many of your assumptions, or are they inexhaustive conclusions?
Post them and I will address them.
one big thing your not mentioning in all this is the other lazarus. the one that Jesus raised up who'd been dead for 4 days. the brother of the sisters, and close friend of the disciples and Jesus.
when he arose. dont you think that he would have told the curious people what he experienced while in sheol?
Yes! So why didnt he? Perhaps there was nothing to tell.
he can verify everything that Jesus said in the parable of the rich and poor man.
he sure could
.but he never did.
the little girl.. the boy from nain.. everyone whom Jesus raised up can testify to the truth of that parable.
yes, but none of them did. And they were all said to be sleeping. Maybe they actually were.
and also all those others who were resurrected when Jesus arose. those who went out through the community appearing to the people.
they had some verifying to give as well.
[FONT="]Indeed
.so why didnt they? [/FONT]