Sooo....

[PastorJim]

Not true. Paul referred to himself as chief among sinners.

Past tense. Paul is referring to the sins from which Jesus saved him.

 

[Blackguard_]

ECLA (Luthern)

I don't know about the other denominations listed, but views on gays/bisexuals varies from church to church in the ELCA, they just tend to be more liberal than say the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. Going to an ELCA church doesn't automatically mean your pastor won't think gay sex is a sin.
But I hope you are not just looking for a church to tell you being gay isn't a sin. I would recommend the ELCA, as while the pastor may or may not believe gays are sinful, the ELCA is very good about realizing justification is by faith alone.

Ayway, here's the section of a letter from MArtin Luther to Philip Melanchton I always end up citing in these "are gays going to hell?" threads...

If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only maginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.

 

[Merlin]

Ah the message of love. God hates you no matter what if you are homosexual, no matter than an omnipotent creater could take it away anytime he wanted to.

No,
God hates the activity.
Not the person.

 

[Caylin]

No,
God hates the activity.
Not the person.

Yet you just said "gays are sinfull."

 

[HisEagle]

Past tense. Paul is referring to the sins from which Jesus saved him.

Again, not true. Read the way the passage is worded. 1 Timothy 1:15 states [bold highlights mine]:

"The saying is sure and worthy of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. And I am the foremost of sinners;" - Revised Standard Version

"This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." - King James version

"It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost {of all.}" - New American Standard version

"This saying is trustworthy and deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Of these I am the foremost. " - New American Bible (the primary Catholic version)

How would you address Paul's account of himself in Romans 7:14-24?

Perhaps it's a matter of interpretation, but we all know how there are thousands of different interpretations in Protestant Christianity. To me, it's clear that he is referring to himself in the present tense. The NAB even seems to add emphasis on that with the words "of these". Maybe I'll go ask the Catholics in OBOB to see what they say about it.

 

[seebs]

Past tense. Paul is referring to the sins from which Jesus saved him.

Simply wrong.

The First Epistle of Paul the Apostle to Timothy, Chapter 1, Verse 15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.​

Present. Tense.

The ludicrous notion that Christians don't sin leaves the world entirely empty of Christians.

 

[Merlin]

Yet you just said "gays are sinfull."

I just said (see post 10 above):

It really doesn't matter what the sin is.

All of us have sinned and fallen short of God's desire.
That is why we need Jesus.



God hates sin (activity)
not the sinner (person)

 

[ChristianCenturion]

Simply wrong.

The First Epistle of Paul the Apostle to Timothy, Chapter 1, Verse 15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

​

Present. Tense.

The ludicrous notion that Christians don't sin leaves the world entirely empty of Christians.

Actually, the notion that a Christian who has died to self and is living in the Spirit MUST sin is ludicrous.
Try reading Romans 6,7, and 8.

I would not make the mistake of confusing Paul's humility and leaving room for the redemption being complete on Judgment Day as a mistaken message of hopelessness with continued slavery to sin. It would conflict with countless other scripture.

 

[faster_jackrabbit]

All sin causes us to be deserving of Hell. Homosexuality (and the Bible makes no distinction between homosexuality and bisexuality) is no exception.

What does the bible say about lesbians? Transexuals? Intersexuals/hermaphrodites?

 

[PastorJim]

Simply wrong.

The First Epistle of Paul the Apostle to Timothy, Chapter 1, Verse 15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
​

Present. Tense.

Which is why it's helpful to read passages in context and not just isolate verses out of context to support your position.

The very next verse shows that it is past tense. The word "obtained" is past tense.

The ludicrous notion that Christians don't sin leaves the world entirely empty of Christians.

Which is why I have never and would never say such a thing.

 

[PastorJim]

What does the bible say about lesbians? Transexuals? Intersexuals/hermaphrodites?

All sin causes us to be deserving of Hell. Homosexuality (and the Bible makes no distinction between homosexuality and bisexuality) is no exception.

 

[PastorJim]

Again, not true. Read the way the passage is worded. 1 Timothy 1:15 states [bold highlights mine]:

"The saying is sure and worthy of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. And I am the foremost of sinners;" - Revised Standard Version

"This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." - King James version

"It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost {of all.}" - New American Standard version

"This saying is trustworthy and deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Of these I am the foremost. " - New American Bible (the primary Catholic version)

And does this passage end at v 15?

How would you address Paul's account of himself in Romans 7:14-24?

That he's no different than the rest of us.

Perhaps it's a matter of interpretation, but we all know how there are thousands of different interpretations in Protestant Christianity.

Here we go...

 

[GhostDad]

All sin causes us to be deserving of Hell. Homosexuality (and the Bible makes no distinction between homosexuality and bisexuality) is no exception.

What does the bible say about lesbians? Transexuals? Intersexuals/hermaphrodites?

 

[Blackguard_]

What does the bible say about lesbians?

uhhh, Lesbians are homosexuals. Besides, Romans 1:20-something.

 

[HisEagle]

And does this passage end at v 15?

Fine, Jim - why don't you explain how Paul could refer to something about himself in the present tense, but really be speaking of the past - okay? Can you do that for me? Thanks.

That he's no different than the rest of us.

Hmmmm. Interesting. Paul talks about how wretched he is. Are Christians wretched, or is it sinners that are wretched, Jim?

He practices the very evil he does not want to do, but that which he knows is good, he does not do. Sounds like he has a problem with sin. I wonder, would Christians these days rip him apart and tell him he is an abominable person because he keeps sinning? He does the things he does not want to do. He says it is the sin within him. That sounds like he is a sinner, if you ask me. What IS a sinner, Jim? Is it not one who sins? No one in church ever told me I was not a sinner because I was a believer. I was always told we all sin. Did the church tell me something wrong, Jim?

Here we go...

Oh please - here we go what, Jim? You KNOW it's true. You KNOW there are countless interpretations of Scripture within Protestant Christianity. The problem is that everyone claims to have the right one. So what are you going to do - declare that an interpretation that differs from yours is incorrect? All I can say is PROVE IT!

Honestly, I'm not going to battle you on this. I am so sick up to my balding hairline with the contradictions and conflicts within Christianity that it almost makes me want to jump ship and refuse to have anything to do with ANY church. Everywhere I turn, it's a different interpretation about this, or a conflicting opinion about that. I honestly wonder WHO among you really knows what you are talking about.

 

[icbeckyc]

A good Christian church will accept you. The Bible says we're all sinners and if a church would turn away you, they'll have to turn away all.

I'm always surprised at the people who believe gays will go to Hell. Doesn't the Bible preach that anyone who believes goes to Heaven? Amazing how the tune changes when the sinner is gay.

I would recomend:

United Church of Christ
Episcopalians
ECLA (Luthern)
Presbyterian (PCUSA)
United Methodist Church
Quakers (Religious Society of Friends)

While all but the UCC and the Quakers have official positions against gay marriage, imo, those denominations have been very welcoming of homosexuals. I don't believe the UCC even recognizes homosexuality as a sin and I think the Presbyterians are headed fast that way.

Well as a PCUSA member. I see where we discuss the topic quite a bit, but I think we are a long way off from allowing gay marriage and gay pastors. Now I am soo not saying there aren't any, but from some of the meetings when the discussion was brought up, while I was an elder, it's still a while. But I would hope that we would definately be supporting you as a Christian.

 

[icbeckyc]

Yet you just said "gays are sinfull."

I have sinned in my life and God hated what I what I did. But he stilled loves me and hopes that I will see what I have done is wrong. We all get many chances to repent of our sins, we just have to take them.

 

[faster_jackrabbit]

uhhh, Lesbians are homosexuals. Besides, Romans 1:20-something.

Of course they are when using the english word, but does the original greek use the english word "homosexual"? In another thread, there was argument about whether the greek word actually included women or not.

I notice that you dropped the transsexuals and hermaphrodites. What is the verdict on them? Somehow I don't think the "lie with a man" verses apply.

 

[Blackguard_]

Of course they are when using the english word, but does the original greek use the english word "homosexual"?

No. But thats nothing you couldn't point out for homosexual men.

In another thread, there was argument about whether the greek word actually included women or not.

There is a word in one of the Corinthians IIRC that means something like "male-intercourse" that is sometimes translated as homosexual. If thats the word referred to, no. But Romans 1:20-something does talk about female homosexual acts.

I notice that you dropped the transsexuals and hermaphrodites.

Becuase I was just pointing out lesbians are homosexuals.

What is the verdict on them?

Transexuals are the sex they are born with. Its purely cosmetic surgery. If a male got his "package" chopped off but made no attempt to fashion a vagina out of the mess, what sex would he be?

Hermophradites,-Don't know. I would guess they are supposed to be celibate, since being with a man or woman would violate the bible their being man and woman.

Somehow I don't think the "lie with a man" verses apply.

maybe, but there is a verse about women like that. Romans 1:20 something.

 

[faster_jackrabbit]

Transexuals are the sex they are born with. Its purely cosmetic surgery. If a male got his "package" chopped off but made no attempt to fashion a vagina out of the mess, what sex would he be?

Actually, I don't think anyone ever does that. If they "chop", they also "fashion". It's called Sex Reassignment Surgery. It's done all at once, because the penile tissue becomes the vagina.

Hermophradites,-Don't know. I would guess they are supposed to be celibate, since being with a man or woman would violate the bible their being man and woman.

Now there's a just god for ya. Whose fault was it that they were born that way? I assume they can't ever get married either, due to the one man one woman rhetoric.

Also, according to a discovery channel documentary on intersexuals, they are actually different from hermaphrodites. Instead of both sets of organs, they just have one, but you can't figure out what it is. It's halfway in between. The doctors arbitrarily pick a gender and do surgery to force it. So what sex is that person? Did the doctors pick the right one? Is there a right one?

I think your god needs a little flexibility, especially if he allows stuff like this to happen.

But then, inflexibility is his trademark. Look at the way unmarried sex is prohibited across the board, despite the fact that nowadays babies and disease can be prevented, unllike in the era when men created him.