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Sooo, what exactly is "charismatic"?

DZoolander

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My wife and I have been thinking about finding a church to attend.

We have one right down the road from us - which identifies itself as "charismatic non-denominational".

What exactly does that mean? On Wikipedia it's lumped in with Pentecostals. Does that mean I can expect some speaking in tongues/faith healing kinda stuff if we were to go there? Is that what Charismatic means?
 

All4Christ

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From my yesteryears as a Pentecostal, there were a few types of self-identified Charismatics - Pentecostals, other denominations with a pentecostal flavor, or non-denominational churches that had Pentecostal leanings. One near me didn't often have speaking in tongues but there were many prophecies, dancing, etc. The amount of Pentecostal influence varies from church to church though.
 
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Dave-W

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The difference between classic Pentecostals and other charismatics is basic doctrinal slant that underlies the congregation. By and large - pentecostalism is an outgrowth of the Wesleyan Holiness movement in the 1800s; and as such seems to be tied closely with the Methodist/Church of the Nazarene doctrinal stream.

Charismatics OTOH come from a variety of doctrinal streams like Catholic, Baptist, Presbyterian and even Mennonite.

What they have in common is the use of the 1 Cor 12 "gifts of the Spirit" which Paul described as "charisma" or gifts of grace. Classic Pentecostalism especially emphasized public tongues and interpretation. In some charismatic congregations you will not hear tongues at all; but will more hear prophecy or words of knowledge and wisdom. Both will have prayer for the sick.

Charismatics tend to be better educated, both secularly and biblically.

One thing to beware of: Kind of bridging the 2 groups is a group called "word of faith." Their teaching has infected both groups, especially in the non-denom and unaffiliated congregations. The pastor usually becomes a small dictator who is accountable to no one, and doctrinally they turn proper christian self-denial on its head. It is a very shaming doctrine as anything that goes wrong in your life is YOUR fault because you did not have enough faith. If there is something you want, all you have to do is confess the right group of scriptures and TRULY believe and it will be dropped in your lap. (name it and claim it, confess it possess it, blab it and grab it)

One pentecostal bible teacher described it as turning God into a "cosmic vending machine;" plug in your proper scripture, pull the knob by confessing and out pops your blessing. Some will actually go so far as to say that if you do these things, God has to obey you. (do you see the problem?)

Stay away from any group that adheres to that doctrine as it tends to go toxic rather quickly.
 
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Dave-W

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Can you explain a bit?
In Charismatic circles I have been around, everyone has at least a high school education while many have college degrees and even advanced degrees. And that is generally seen as a good thing.

In some of the Pentecostal (esp independent pentecostal) groups I have been around there is a very negative attitude toward education as it is seen as "man's wisdom" which fights against Godly wisdom. People with college degrees are looked at as "fleshly" and "not of the Spirit." I was in one church that had a pastor who could not read. (functional illiterate) He seemed to have some kind of supernatural gift to be able to read the KJV bible, but could not even figure out the newspaper headlines.

Even the Discipleship group I was a part of in college; even though the guys at the top had PhDs and ThDs, people were suggested (and some times strong armed) to not finish college.
 
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All4Christ

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In Charismatic circles I have been around, everyone has at least a high school education while many have college degrees and even advanced degrees. And that is generally seen as a good thing.

In some of the Pentecostal (esp independent pentecostal) groups I have been around there is a very negative attitude toward education as it is seen as "man's wisdom" which fights against Godly wisdom. People with college degrees are looked at as "fleshly" and "not of the Spirit." I was in one church that had a pastor who could not read. (functional illiterate) He seemed to have some kind of supernatural gift to be able to read the KJV bible, but could not even figure out the newspaper headlines.

Even the Discipleship group I was a part of in college; even though the guys at the top had PhDs and ThDs, people were suggested (and some times strong armed) to not finish college.

I would say that this is not applicable across all Pentecostal churches, especially in regards to college degrees.
 
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Dave-W

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I would say that this is not applicable across all Pentecostal churches, especially in regards to college degrees.
Perhaps not. But it has certainly been my experience. Even in some of the denominational pentecostals like the Assembly of God, unless you went to an A/G approved bible school, you were looked down on for going past high school.

But that may just have been the part of the country I grew up in as well.
 
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All4Christ

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Perhaps not. But it has certainly been my experience. Even in some of the denominational pentecostals like the Assembly of God, unless you went to an A/G approved bible school, you were looked down on for going past high school.

But that may just have been the part of the country I grew up in as well.

Perhaps it is regional. I was AoG and attending college never was looked down upon. Certainly, seminarians were requested to graduate from an AoG school, but that isn't very unusual for denominations to request their pastors to be educated in their particular schools.

I am aware of the wide range of Pentecostal churches, and I have many things I disagree with in regards to theology, but I know many very educated people in the Pentecostal church who view education as a gift from God - but do not consider it to be limited to high school or exclusive to denominational colleges.

(Ironically it was through college that I decided to leave the Pentecostal Church, but I digress.)
 
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All4Christ

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I don't really think I would do well in a church where they spoke in tongues, to be honest.

I can understand that. One other consideration - some Charismatic and Pentecostal churches, but not all, expect that people will speak in tongues. As in - if you have the Holy Spirit, you will definitely be speaking in tongues. A few others. Insider hat to be a requirement of salvation. I had some very negative experiences with it and will not be going to any church in the future that has that as a requirement, and will not be going to any that have speaking in tongues in the service. I respect those who are part of the Charismatic / Pentecostal movement (the vast majority of my family is in it), but I will not be doing so personally. That said - I don't deny the gift of speaking in tongues as a whole, though I think it is abused and misunderstood at times.
 
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LinkH

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I'd say the difference between Pentecostal and Charismatic is that Pentecostals are typically from denominations or independent churches started just before, during, or after the Azusa Street revival in the early 1900's. The Charismatic movement was originally a movement within 'mainline' denominations, a revival of a belief in the baptism with the Holy Spirit and spiritual gifts, but many new churches and denominations that were 'Charismatic' formed. So a lot of 'Charismatic' churches are independent or are a part of a loose fellowship of churches.

In the 1960's, a lot of Pentecostals were really conservative about clothing and jewelry, while Charismatics tended to be a lot more liberal. Several decades ago, you might have said that Pentecostals and Charismatics had different music, with Pentecostals singing more hymns and gospel music and Charismatics singing more choruses. A lot of these differences have been diminished. Pentecostals typically had more Wesleyan doctrine like DaveW-Ohev said and Charismatics came from a variety of backgrounds, not just Methodist.

I grew up A/G, at least in high school. I went to an A/G. My parents got involved in the denomination after attending a Charismatic revival for a couple of years. We went to an independent Full Gospel church, moved and I spent most of my high school years in the Assemblies of God.

I did hear sermon that said that higher education was not the solution for moral ills, and one preacher did not care much for Psychology. Another pastor of an A/G I went to had a degree in Psychology. I don't remember anyone hinting that it was a sin to go to college or not to go to an A/G school. We did have a number young people who went to A/G schools. We had a Bible Quiz Team, and one of my fellow quizzers probably had some scholarship money for one of those schools from quizzing. I had a small scholarship at Central, I think, but I wouldn't have been better off financially than going to the state university I went to. Two quizzers, one who left the year before I did, and his brother, got doctorates. The one who I was on the quiz team with was a medical doctor and professor at a large state university the last I checked.

I was a teen in the 1980's. The Pentecostal movement was strongest among the working class early on.

I'd consider the Word of Faith movement to be a part of the Charismatic movement, though it has effected some Pentecostals. Other Pentecostals don't care for it, or don't care for certain aspects of it.
 
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LinkH

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eZoolander, in a lot of Charismatic churches, if you attend a service, it is unlikely that you will hear speaking in tongues.

In some churches, though, people pray in tongues all at the same time. I went to Assemblies of God churches, growing up, where I don't think they believed in doing that. They believed tongues should be interpreted after they are given, and that's what they did. Some people would also give prophecies during the meeting. It was either an interpretation of a tongue or a prophecy, but I remember as a teen thinking something, and then the prophecy or interpretation told me what I was thinking and commented on it. I've experienced similar things many times, and I've witnessed many very specific prophecies, words of knowledge, etc., where someone knew or said something about another person that he or she could not naturally know. I've gotten words of knowledge, too, on occasion. My wife prophesies and gets words of knowledge from time to time.

I have also known people who get an interpretation of a tongue, and before they say it, someone else gives the same interpretation. I haven't witnessed speaking in tongues in a language I know, but I have talked to people who have either had the language they spoke in tongues understood by others, or else heard English spoken 'in tongues' by someone who did not know it. I have gotten a word of knowledge before, and before I could share with the individual about it, my wife prophesied it.
 
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All4Christ

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In some churches, though, people pray in tongues all at the same time. I went to Assemblies of God churches, growing up, where I don't think they believed in doing that. They believed tongues should be interpreted after they are given, and that's what they did. Some people would also give prophecies during the meeting. It was either an interpretation of a tongue or a prophecy, but I remember as a teen thinking something, and then the prophecy or interpretation told me what I was thinking and commented on it. I've experienced similar things many times, and I've witnessed many very specific prophecies, words of knowledge, etc., where someone knew or said something about another person that he or she could not naturally know. I've gotten words of knowledge, too, on occasion. My wife prophesies and gets words of knowledge from time to time.


In both of my old Assemblies of God churches, we had one at a time with interpretation during the service (at any point of the service), but at prayer times during the service, pretty much everyone spoke in tongues at one time without interpretation.

At conferences, I found that some AoG churches are much more vocal in speaking in tongues, slaying of the spirit, prophecies etc than others. It varies from church to church I think.
 
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LinkH

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In both of my old Assemblies of God churches, we had one at a time with interpretation during the service (at any point of the service), but at prayer times during the service, pretty much everyone spoke in tongues at one time without interpretation.

At conferences, I found that some AoG churches are much more vocal in speaking in tongues, slaying of the spirit, prophecies etc than others. It varies from church to church I think.

One A/G church I attended was affiliated with a Bible college, and they valued I Corinthians 14 order when it came to speaking in tongues. The other just had people who would interpret after speaking in tongues and I don't remember every hearing en masse speaking in tongues.

I am curious. If the Eastern Orthodox at least theoretically believe that speaking in tongues and interpretation are gifts within the church and that the church meetings that Paul wrote of were 'Orthodox' in the first century, why would you not attend if a church had these gifts in operation?
 
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All4Christ

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One A/G church I attended was affiliated with a Bible college, and they valued I Corinthians 14 order when it came to speaking in tongues. The other just had people who would interpret after speaking in tongues and I don't remember every hearing en masse speaking in tongues.

I am curious. If the Eastern Orthodox at least theoretically believe that speaking in tongues and interpretation are gifts within the church and that the church meetings that Paul wrote of were 'Orthodox' in the first century, why would you not attend if a church had these gifts in operation?

Did the churches have prayer time at the altar with many people speaking in tongues at once?
 
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All4Christ

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One A/G church I attended was affiliated with a Bible college, and they valued I Corinthians 14 order when it came to speaking in tongues. The other just had people who would interpret after speaking in tongues and I don't remember every hearing en masse speaking in tongues.

I am curious. If the Eastern Orthodox at least theoretically believe that speaking in tongues and interpretation are gifts within the church and that the church meetings that Paul wrote of were 'Orthodox' in the first century, why would you not attend if a church had these gifts in operation?

I just saw the second part of your post.

It is controversial in our church and isn't exactly dogmatic. We do not believe it was the norm to speak in tongues in church services and that it was fairly unique to the Corinthians. At minimum, Paul seemed to downplay Corinthian glossolalia's importance. Many do not believe that the predominant tongues were Corinthian glossolalia, but were of the "other foreign language" for evangelization purposes (Pentecost glossolalia). We still have some modern examples of that within missions to areas where the language is unknown. Some Orthodox claim that the glossolalia described in the Corinthian's church was foreign languages. I can't claim that I am 100% convinced on that side of the debate. Perhaps that is because of my background.

Regarding the reason I would not attend a church with that present - there are many more complicated reasons, theologically and also emotionally involved with that. Perhaps I should clarify that I wouldn't attend if it was a predominant characteristic of the church. The beliefs behind the gifts are often very different in my opinion from the early church, even as described in Corinthians. Being slain in the spirit on the other hand - I don't see solid biblical basis for that.

One note - you will find some Orthodox that are vehemently against it, and others that don't preclude it but see it as a minor gift. My husband would be among those who dismiss the tongues of angels side of it.

Across the board though, we certainly believe the Holy Spirit is active today. Check out the Mystics in the Orthodox Church if you are interested. St Gregory of Palamas is particularly interesting from a Pentecostal perspective.

I'm pretty exhausted, as I am on serious jet lag right now, so I will try to answer this better once I am more awake. I just got back from vacation yesterday and am on a 6 hour time change!

Perhaps a quote from the Greek Archdiocese would help:

The ... Orthodox Church does not preclude the use of Glossolalia, but regards it as one of the minor gifts of the Holy Spirit. If Glossolalia has fallen out of use it is because it served its purpose in New Testament times and is no longer necessary. However, even when used, it is a private and personal gift, a lower form of prayer. The Orthodox Church differs with those Pentecostal and Charismatic groups which regard Glossolalia as a pre requisite to being a Christian and to having received the Holy Spirit.

...

What then is the Orthodox Christian perspective on Glossolalia? The Orthodox Christian viewpoint on Glossolalia is based on St. Paul's words in chapter 14 of the same Epistle, "I thank God that I speak in strange tongues much more than any of you. But in Church worship I would rather speak five words that can be understood, in order to teach others, than speak thousands of words in strange tongues." (verses 18-19) In chapter 13 St. Paul says, "Set your hearts, then, on the more important gifts. Best of all, however, is the following way." Then St. Paul proceeds and shares with his readership the greatest gift of all - Love!

The Orthodox Church does not rule out Glossolalia. She simply does not regard it as one of the important ones. Better to "speak five words that can be understood ... than speak thousands of words in strange tongues." This is the Orthodox Christian viewpoint.

http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7112
 
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NothingIsImpossible

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My 2 cents is charismatic non-denominational isn't a thing. You can't be two denominations at once. I mean I guess you could, but it seems confusing to me. Although maybe they mean they lean more towards charismatic stuff.

With that said I never cared for pentecostal or charismatic. They are super judgmental alot of times about outsiders. The times we've tried or even visited those churchs even for a event they will say "You don't speak in tongues? Your not a christian then!". Or stuff of that nature. I won't argue about tongues but I will say when a group says you have to speak tongues to be a christian, I avoid it.

My wifes denomination leans towards pentecostal, but not to much. Last time I was at a church like that, and no offense to anyone whos part of one, during worship most everyone was in the aisle clucking liking chickens, mooing like cows...etc. And they acted like they were animals. Crawling on all fours, acting like they had chicken wings and so on. Some were screaming like they were being killed. Others were howling while standing ON the pews. Alot of them kept doing so during service. Then they forced us to go into the aisle to partake in some crazy stuff. We left. I realize not every church is like that of course. But I've seen it happen to much and I don't felt joy in the Holy Spirit from it. If anything my gift of discernment kicking in and I felt evil or something cult like. The hair stood up on my neck.

I'm just regular non-denominational. At our church we learn towards no other denomination. In other words we go by the Bible and follow Christ. No weird rules, no weird labels. Just christians.
 
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LinkH

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Did the churches have prayer time at the altar with many people speaking in tongues at once?

I don't recall that in either of the Assemblies of God churches I was a part of growing up. I asked about that on an A/G forum, and a lot of them did that sort of thing. I sort of associated everyone praying at the same time more with the denominations that were 'Holiness' in their doctrine, predominantly southestern denominations. Some of the A/G folks who said they did that were from the Southeast or Texas, though. So it could be regional influence. One A/G I attended was in Louisiana and the other was in the Georgia suburbs.

It is controversial in our church and isn't exactly dogmatic. We do not believe it was the norm to speak in tongues in church services and that it was fairly unique to the Corinthians.

At minimum, Paul seemed to downplay Corinthian glossolalia's importance.

In comparison to prophecy and in the context of the church meeting, I would agree. But, of course, Paul instructed that speaking in tongues and interpretation be allowed in the church gathering and that 'ye may all prophesy.' Reading some second century writings, I get the impression that prophesying in church was practiced in churches. The Shepherd of Hermas warned that false prophets preferred to prophesy outside of the church meetings.

Many do not believe that the predominant tongues were Corinthian glossolalia, but were of the "other foreign language" for evangelization purposes (Pentecost glossolalia). We still have some modern examples of that within missions to areas where the language is unknown. Some Orthodox claim that the glossolalia described in the Corinthian's church was foreign languages. I can't claim that I am 100% convinced on that side of the debate. Perhaps that is because of my background.

The idea that speaking in tongues is languages is the historical Pentecostal view and also the experience of the early Pentecostal movement. I have come across three references to situations where someone spoke in tongues at the Azusa Street Mission during the years of the Azusa Street revival and someone who knew the language heard it and recognized it. Seymour mentioned it in a newsletter. The Comforter Has Come describes another case. Val Dez gave another account in Fire on Azusa. Vincent Synan did an interview that was posted on YouTube with two elderly folks in the early 1970's who had been children at the Azusa Street revival. One of them said that what drew people was the fact that people would come in and hear their languages, Japanese, or whatever, during the meetings. I've read accounts of the interpretations being verified by those who knew the languages naturally at well.

I don't see any reason to read into the Corinthian descriptions of tongues, the idea that they could not have been speaking real languages. It is just obvious from the text that no one present actually understood the languages naturally and the congregation needed the gift of interpretation to understand it.

Some tongues may be 'tongues of angels'. No one on earth may be able to understand that with their natural understanding.

Regarding the reason I would not attend a church with that present - there are many more complicated reasons, theologically and also emotionally involved with that. Perhaps I should clarify that I wouldn't attend if it was a predominant characteristic of the church. The beliefs behind the gifts are often very different in my opinion from the early church, even as described in Corinthians.

If we look at the actual text of the Bible for instructions from the apostles themselves regarding what to do in gatherings of the church, the one lengthy passage we have on what to do implies that a predominant characteristic of the church is that it is 'charismatic', that is, that the spiritual gifts are active in the church. Paul commands the church to allow speaking in tongues and for the saints to prophesy. He doesn't say anything about pastors preaching sermons or specify a particular liturgy. He also seems to imply that he is appealing to universal church practice and calls his instructions commandments of the Lord. Paul encourages readers to be zealous for spiritual gifts and instructs them to covet to prophesy.

Being slain in the spirit on the other hand - I don't see solid biblical basis for that.

The phenomenon was horribly named, IMO. There are plenty of cases where prophets and other individuals fell down, or were not able to stand (e.g. priests in the temple when the cloud was present). Daniel felt physically weak after an encounter with what seems to have been an angel. The guards who came to arrest Jesus fell on their backs when He said, "I am".

One note - you will find some Orthodox that are vehemently against it, and others that don't preclude it but see it as a minor gift. My husband would be among those who dismiss the tongues of angels side of it.

Across the board though, we certainly believe the Holy Spirit is active today. Check out the Mystics in the Orthodox Church if you are interested. St Gregory of Palamas is particularly interesting from a Pentecostal perspective.

Do you have a particular book in mind?


I'm pretty exhausted, as I am on serious jet lag right now, so I will try to answer this better once I am more awake. I just got back from vacation yesterday and am on a 6 hour time change!

Perhaps a quote from the Greek Archdiocese would help:
The Orthodox Church differs with those Pentecostal and Charismatic groups which regard Glossolalia as a pre requisite to being a Christian and to having received the Holy Spirit.

I think this misrepresents the beliefs of Pentecostals and Charismatics. In my experience, the belief that those who are truly saved will speak in tongues (prerequisite is not the right word) is pretty much exclusively a belief of Oneness Pentecostals. The last I read, that was maybe 5% of Pentecostals. I do not know that I have ever heard of a Pentecostal or Charismatic outside of the Oneness movement who believed that way.

Maybe if they said 'or to having received the Holy Spirit.' Most Pentecostal denominations and Charismatic churches believe that Christians can be baptized with the Holy Spirit subsequent to conversion.

From the same quote,
Better to "speak five words that can be understood ... than speak thousands of words in strange tongues." This is the Orthodox Christian viewpoint.

Paul put a clarifier on it. He spoke in tongues 'more than ye all.' But he said, "Yet in the church" he would rather speak five words with the understanding that he may instruct others than 10,000 words in an unknown tongue.

He does not say that in terms of his personal prayer, tongues is any lower than prayer in a language he understood. This is part of an argument in the passage that speaking in tongues edifies the speaker and not the listener and is not beneficial to the rest of the congregation unless it is interpreted.
 
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LinkH

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My 2 cents is charismatic non-denominational isn't a thing. You can't be two denominations at once.

A lot of the 'regular' non-denominationals will call themselves 'evangelicals.' Does that mean they are denominational? By 'non-denominational', they mean the church isn't a part of a denominational organization, that it is an independent church. 'Charismatic' is more of a theological position. A non-denominational church could believe in Calvinist doctrine.

I mean I guess you could, but it seems confusing to me. Although maybe they mean they lean more towards charismatic stuff.

With that said I never cared for pentecostal or charismatic. They are super judgmental alot of times about outsiders. The times we've tried or even visited those churchs even for a event they will say "You don't speak in tongues? Your not a christian then!". Or stuff of that nature. I won't argue about tongues but I will say when a group says you have to speak tongues to be a christian, I avoid it.

I've only found that Oneness Pentecostals, a small minority, believe that way.

My wifes denomination leans towards pentecostal, but not to much. Last time I was at a church like that, and no offense to anyone whos part of one, during worship most everyone was in the aisle clucking liking chickens, mooing like cows...etc. And they acted like they were animals. Crawling on all fours, acting like they had chicken wings and so on. Some were screaming like they were being killed. Others were howling while standing ON the pews. Alot of them kept doing so during service. Then they forced us to go into the aisle to partake in some crazy stuff. We left. I realize not every church is like that of course. But I've seen it happen to much and I don't felt joy in the Holy Spirit from it. If anything my gift of discernment kicking in and I felt evil or something cult like. The hair stood up on my neck.

I think most Pentecostals would think mooing like a cow in church is crazy and not acceptable. There are Psalms about shouting before the Lord and some of the Pentecostal churches in the Southeast believe in shouting in church as a form of praise.
 
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