Somewhere Between Order and Chaos

[Sojourner<><]

If you were to take a long, hard look at the entirety of reality as you know it, what do you see? Order? Chaos? May be a little of both?

As mathematicians explore the nature of reality, it seems that there is a certain elegance or beauty that is found in the truths that they discover. Apparently there is order embeded within the mechanics of reality.

This video clip demonstrates how this can be seen through the application of harmonics. Check it out, it's pretty fun to watch.
video clip

So, my questions then are: what is order? If reality was not designed, shouldn't there be chaos throughout, and how can order be present at all?

 

[Im_A]

If you were to take a long, hard look at the entirety of reality as you know it, what do you see? Order? Chaos? May be a little of both?

As mathematicians explore the nature of reality, it seems that there is a certain elegance or beauty that is found in the truths that they discover. Apparently there is order embeded within the mechanics of reality.

This video clip demonstrates how this can be seen through the application of harmonics. Check it out, it's pretty fun to watch.
video clip

So, my questions then are: what is order? If reality was not designed, shouldn't there be chaos throughout, and how can order be present at all?

even with the idea of there being a designer, there still is chaos throughout the creation of existence. so really whether or not we were designed is irrelevant because either way, we'd have chaos and order in how we were created.

 

[Emmy]

Dear Sojourner<><. Thanks for the try, but I must admit, " there are none as blind, as those who do not want to see." The only Truth I know, is Jesus Christ. I say this humbly and with love. Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[Sojourner<><]

even with the idea of there being a designer, there still is chaos throughout the creation of existence. so really whether or not we were designed is irrelevant because either way, we'd have chaos and order in how we were created.

And what is chaos?

 

[The Nihilist]

The universe is composed only of stuff and energy. Order and chaos are cognitive constructs that have no meaning outside of the very particular context of a system of control. If there is no attempt at control, neither order nor chaos makes any sense.

 

[Sojourner<><]

The universe is composed only of stuff and energy. Order and chaos are cognitive constructs that have no meaning outside of the very particular context of a system of control. If there is no attempt at control, neither order nor chaos makes any sense.

are you saying that there is no real difference between order and chaos? Or are you saing that order does not exist apart from human control of stuff and energy?

 

[Sojourner<><]

Dear Sojourner<><. Thanks for the try, but I must admit, " there are none as blind, as those who do not want to see." The only Truth I know, is Jesus Christ. I say this humbly and with love. Emmy, your sister in Christ.

No, thank you Emmy for your concern. It's nice to see that there are some who truly care about others.

 

[The Nihilist]

are you saying that there is no real difference between order and chaos? Or are you saing that order does not exist apart from human control of stuff and energy?

It's not really an "or" question. No, order and chaos do not exist apart from an attempt to control stuff and energy. And I'm willing to grant that things other than humans can put stuff in order. Beavers with their dams and whatnot.

 

[Sojourner<><]

It's not really an "or" question. No, order and chaos do not exist apart from an attempt to control stuff and energy. And I'm willing to grant that things other than humans can put stuff in order. Beavers with their dams and whatnot.

So... you're saying that order is the product of some form of life that exerts control over stuff?

 

[quatona]

So, my questions then are: what is order?

Order is information that can be expressed shorter than by describing each single event in every detail.

If reality was not designed, shouldn't there be chaos throughout,

I wouldn´t know why to expect that.

and how can order be present at all?

Well, why not?

 

[ArchaicTruth]

Order and Chaos are just two smaller views of the grand picture. You need both, or the nature of our existence would be irrelevant.

 

[Im_A]

And what is chaos?

i'll start with this definition:

Chaos (derived from the Greek &#935;&#940;&#959;&#962;, Chaos) typically refers to unpredictability, and is the antithetical concept of cosmos. The word &#967;&#940;&#959;&#962; did not mean "disorder" in classical-period ancient Greece. It meant "the primal emptiness, space" (see Chaos (mythology)). Chaos is derived from the Proto-Indo-European root ghn or ghen meaning "gape, be wide open": compare "chasm" (from Greek &#967;&#940;&#963;&#956;&#945;), and Anglo-Saxon g&#257;nian ("yawn"), geanian, ginian ("gape wide"); see also Old Norse Ginnungagap. Due to people misunderstanding early Christian uses of the word, the meaning of the word changed to "disorder". (The Ancient Greek for "disorder" is &#964;&#945;&#961;&#945;&#967;&#942;.).

section copy and pasted from this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos

 

[Sojourner<><]

i'll start with this definition:



section copy and pasted from this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos

Well, when I hear the word chaos, I think 'disorder'. Actually that's its implied meaning the topic of the thread. Can we agree on that?

 

[Eudaimonist]

If reality was not designed [...] how can order be present at all?

It seems to me that your video contains the answer to your question.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Sojourner<><]

It seems to me that your video contains the answer to your question.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Could you elaborate?

 

[Sojourner<><]

Order is information that can be expressed shorter than by describing each single event in every detail.

I agree that order is information, which is a pattern. It seems to me that the most obvious feature of a pattern is the lack of, or a reduced amount of random variance. Would you agree?

 

[The Nihilist]

So... you're saying that order is the product of some form of life that exerts control over stuff?

That might be a little oversimplified, but yes, essentially.

 

[Sojourner<><]

Order and Chaos are just two smaller views of the grand picture. You need both, or the nature of our existence would be irrelevant.

Well I definately think that both are necessary for us to exist. But if order is really just managed chaos, I would imagine that reality itself doesn't require order for it to exist. Actually, a chaotic, "stupid" reality seems to be the most probable outcome of a random occurrence. So yeah, I think in that case existence without order would be completely irrelevant.

 

[quatona]

I agree that order is information, which is a pattern. It seems to me that the most obvious feature of a pattern is the lack of, or a reduced amount of random variance. Would you agree?

No, I don´t think so.
1. I am not sure why you say "random variance" (and not simply "variance")
2. (If the "random" part is of any significance to your statement): I wouldn´t know how to tell that the variance in question is random (without begging the question).
3. Unless things are absolutely identical, there is always variance. We perceive a pattern only by judging the variances insignificant or irrelevant and disregard them. Thus, our perception of a pattern is dependent on our interest and focus.
4. "reduced amount of variance": reduced compared to what?

 

[Sojourner<><]

No, I don´t think so.
1. I am not sure why you say "random variance" (and not simply "variance")
2. (If the "random" part is of any significance to your statement): I wouldn´t know how to tell that the variance in question is random (without begging the question).
3. Unless things are absolutely identical, there is always variance. We perceive a pattern only by judging the variances insignificant or irrelevant and disregard them. Thus, our perception of a pattern is dependent on our interest and focus.
4. "reduced amount of variance": reduced compared to what?

Give me a break, Quatona. I'm describing variance as being random in nature. In a disordered system, the probability distribution of an event is uniform and variance is wide. In an ordered system, variance tends to focus in on one more more possible outcomes. So as a system becomes more ordered, variance becomes less random and more predictable.