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Gold Dragon said:OrthodoxyUSA had an interesting alternative phrase for heretic : Potentially Orthodox.
Crazy Liz said:I view all separations in the Body of Christ and all anathematization of believers as tragic evidence of our sinful state.
So I guess I disagree with all of you. I hope you won't call me a heretic for it.
Put the shoe on the other foot and call him a potential Baptist and see how funny he thinks it is. I don't think it is funny at all.Gold Dragon said:OrthodoxyUSA had an interesting alternative phrase for heretic : Potentially Orthodox.
Matthan said:Testing, or confirming? I prefer to confirm my faith by reading Scripture.
Matthan <J><
Uncle Bud said:Put the shoe on the other foot and call him a potential Baptist and see how funny he thinks it is. I don't think it is funny at all.
Uncle Bud said:Put the shoe on the other foot and call him a potential Baptist and see how funny he thinks it is.
Crazy Liz said:If it is either funny or not funny depending on whether you capitalize "orthodox," what does that say about our divisions?
Okay so he did not mean it as a joke. I find it offensive that a group of believers would not consider me just a Christian as they are, but would consider me a potential whatever they are. Pathetic if you ask me.Gold Dragon said:I don't think he suggested the phrase "potentially Orthodox" as a joke but seemed sincere about it. I do believe that he used that phrase from an EO worldview, but I also think there is a greater truth to that idea that can be applied to any worldview.
Maybe we are not.The ones we call heretic are potentially whatever we are. And we are called heretic by those whom we are potentially like. To take it one step further, maybe we are both potentially something else that God wants us to be?
Nothing.Crazy Liz said:If it is either funny or not funny depending on whether you capitalize "orthodox," what does that say about our divisions?
Great post. I agree, there must be certain divisions, as not every human is the same. Now we should never have a choice on our saviour, but we should be able to have a choice on liturgy or non-liturgy. etc . . .2Timothy2 said:Some of our divisions are absolutely necessary; those based on the diety of Christ, the trinity, inerrency of Scripture, the authority of Scripture, salvation by grace through faith alone in Christ alone. Some are more suspect; is it really so important whether one is immersed or sprikled? (I'm sure some could give 'good' arguements for both sides of that one) Others are simply pety; types of pews, carpet color, whether women should wear dresses only, etc.
Uncle Bud said:I find it offensive that a group of believers would not consider me just a Christian as they are, but would consider me a potential whatever they are. Pathetic if you ask me.
But in the Orthodox opinion they are the "church" therefore if they are the church and we are just potential Orthodox, then we are what in their eyes? This is just double talk for hey, you aint in the body yet but you could be. Horse hockey. Either I am in the body or am not, and if in your eyes (or their eyes to be exact) I am not, then so be it.Gold Dragon said:I don't think the phrase "potentially Orthodox" means they don't believe the person is a Christian, just that they don't believe the person is Orthodox.
Okay wait. I do not consider Orthodox to be outside of the body of Christ. The same for Roman Catholics. These two do not have that same opinion of us. There is a huge difference here.The view that someone who isn't whatever we are is a heretic is a common one in every group of Christianity.
It is euphamistic nonsense, and that is all that it is, as a spade is really just a spade GD. That is why I gave you the example of calling him a potential Baptist. It is not a compliment, and he would not find it as one. For some misguided individuals we are not even a part of the body, and yet we (at least some of us have) say that they are. Don't kid yourself GD this is not a two way street. The only way our relationship will change is if we go to their side, and that will never happen for me.The usefulness of language like "potentially ________" (EO, RCC, SBC) is more for the person calling others heretic than it is for the person being called a heretic. It recognizes that the "other" is different and "outside" of "us", but it opens the possibility that this doesn't have to be a permanent state of our relationship.
But you will have to compromise your doctrines to join either group, that is why we are seperate now. Do you think the church in Rome will give up the ill fated and error prone idea that the pope has primacy? No. Then there will never be any peace between them and anyone else and so on. Do you think Baptists will start sprinkling babies and believing in the real presence in the Lord's Supper? Fat chance. Will we start having icons in our churches? Not hardly.Instead of our goal being to condemn and maintaining separation, we aim to build relationships bring each other to unity (not by compromising doctrine).
Uncle Bud said:But in the Orthodox opinion they are the "church" therefore if they are the church and we are just potential Orthodox, then we are what in their eyes? This is just double talk for hey, you aint in the body yet but you could be. Horse hockey. Either I am in the body or am not, and if in your eyes (or their eyes to be exact) I am not, then so be it.
Uncle Bud said:Okay wait. I do not consider Orthodox to be outside of the body of Christ. The same for Roman Catholics. These two do not have that same opinion of us. There is a huge difference here.
Catechism of the Catholic Church
818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272
Uncle Bud said:It is euphamistic nonsense, and that is all that it is, as a spade is really just a spade GD. That is why I gave you the example of calling him a potential Baptist. It is not a compliment, and he would not find it as one.
Uncle Bud said:For some misguided individuals we are not even a part of the body, and yet we (at least some of us have) say that they are. Don't kid yourself GD this is not a two way street. The only way our relationship will change is if we go to their side, and that will never happen for me.
Uncle Bud said:But you will have to compromise your doctrines to join either group, that is why we are seperate now. Do you think the church in Rome will give up the ill fated and error prone idea that the pope has primacy? No. Then there will never be any peace between them and anyone else and so on. Do you think Baptists will start sprinkling babies and believing in the real presence in the Lord's Supper? Fat chance. Will we start having icons in our churches? Not hardly.
Uncle Bud said:And whose goal is it to condemn and maintain seperation but the ones who claim to be the true church. I do rejoice in our many likenesses, but the differences cannot be brushed aside or compromised, or truth will be null and void.
When tempted to call us heretics they should remember, that we are potential Orthodox? Gee that makes me feel all warm inside. How about instead they respect us as being Christians with different views which is how I view them now?Gold Dragon said:I know that is what OrthodoxyUSA meant. But he meant it as a reminder for other Orthodox when they are tempted to call others heretics. But I think it applies to all Christian groups when faced with the same temptation.
Do the fullness of the truth, the church that Christ started, and so on ring any bells? Sorry GD but I still aint buying into it.The Orthodox and Catholics do not consider us outside the body of Christ either.
These people are saying hey "they are not heretics, they could potentially be an Orthodox", instead of "hey they are my Christian brothers and sisters". There is a world of difference. I choose the latter.I think the word potentially recognizes the huge differences but is a shift in attitude about those differences.
So I should shift my thinking from, gee this person is a Christian but has some ideas I do not foster, to hey they are potentially Baptist? How does that do their beliefs (or the person for that matter) any justice by belittling what they believe by rationalizing that hey they could be a Baptist someday? Seems rather disingenious to me.Maybe he wouldn't find it to be a compliment, but if you use potential Baptist as something for him to hear, you are missing the point. If you are using potential Baptist as a label for those you would normally call heretic or "outside" as a reminder to yourself, then you are getting closer.
My attitude is this GD. I believe we are all a part of the church. I believe that we are all a part of the body of Christ. I believe that I will see just as many of Catholics/Orthodox in heaven as protestants.The point I'm trying to make is to change our attitudes of those we consider on the "other side". Those "sides" may never disappear and we may never switch to one side, but our attitudes towards them can change.
So I should shift my thinking from, gee this person is a Christian but has some ideas I do not foster, to hey they are potentially Baptist? How does that do their beliefs (or the person for that matter) any justice by belittling what they believe by rationalizing that hey they could be a Baptist someday? Seems rather disingenious to me.
My attitude is this GD. I believe we are all a part of the church. I believe that we are all a part of the body of Christ. I believe that I will see just as many of Catholics/Orthodox in heaven as protestants.
What belief should I change? What attitude should I adopt that rivals that?
2Timothy2 said:Some of our divisions are absolutely necessary; those based on the diety of Christ, the trinity, inerrency of Scripture, the authority of Scripture, salvation by grace through faith alone in Christ alone. Some are more suspect; is it really so important whether one is immersed or sprikled? (I'm sure some could give 'good' arguements for both sides of that one) Others are simply pety; types of pews, carpet color, whether women should wear dresses only, etc.
Crazy Liz, you need to be more specific as to which divisions you refer.
The divisions between many protestant denoms and the RC, for example, are huge and serious. Those between, say Southern Baptist and Presby's are less so, although from specific church to church they could be serious and huge. I for one will not compromise on the essentials. If that makes me an heretic to some, I welcome such 'persecution'. I wish that all of Christianity was united in sound doctrine, but this is not the case, and will be increasingly less so as the years go by.
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