Something's Bothering Me...

[DM25]

I asked this question in the feedback section but I got no reply. I'm just wondering, who has the vote on what topic is considered "controversial" on here? Isn't there some theological bias here? I think it's unfair to have some views deemed "controversial" when maybe even most people do agree to with it and it is scriptural. Was a poll taken or something to see if the majority believes a topic is controversial or backed up by scripture? Because some topics on here can be easily argued by scripture with no bending it to fit a person's interpretation...

For example, souls in hell eventually getting destroyed can easily be backed up by several verses on how God destroys both body and soul in hell and how the wicked will perish, not to mention the term "forever and ever" in regards to the beast and the false prophet in the lake of fire actually being "ages of the ages" from the original Greek which refers more to eons, which is directly from the original Greek word in the bible "Aeons", which refers to a fixed time with an eventual end, however long that may be. I always get upset that the KJV got that one wrong, despite being a pretty solid literal translation in most other verses.

Anyways, how does the person decide what is controversial on here and is there a poll done or something because it can be pretty biased and insulting, not just to the person but even to God, when some topics are actually scriptural and directly from the book...

 

[david shelby]

Probably Calvinists decide what is controversial and what is not. If a Calvinists head would spin around like a demon possessed person in the exorcist movie if you mentioned something to them, it probably should go here. Including this statement.

 

[Call me Nic]

Probably Calvinists decide what is controversial and what is not. If a Calvinists head would spin around like a demon possessed person in the exorcist movie if you mentioned something to them, it probably should go here. Including this statement.

Why the generalization? Reformed and non-reformed believers tend to agree on 98% of doctrines.

To the OP: controversial topics are anything that are outside common Christian Orthodoxy, which are beliefs and doctrines held by the majority of Christians throughout the centuries, as given and taught by the apostles. Various disagreements within this framework don’t threaten orthodox belief or understanding, but traditions of men and non-apostolic teachings do.

 

[DM25]

controversial topics are anything that are outside common Christian Orthodoxy, which are beliefs and doctrines held by the majority of Christians throughout the centuries, as given and taught by the apostles. Various disagreements within this framework don’t threaten orthodox belief or understand, but traditions of men and non-apostolic teachings do.

But that confuses me too. Is there some actual definitive poll done to show a certain belief is not orthodox or is not held by a majority of Christians? Both today and in the past as well? Because if there was a poll taken, for example for the question of whether eternal torment is eternal, how do we know the majority would say yes when there are scriptural arguments that can oppose it as well? That's kind of where I'm getting at by the bias thing.. Because I can see a majority of Bible-believing Christians getting polled agreeing that it is not an eternal torment chamber, along with some other beliefs. So what determines orthodoxy in this sense, if there is no definitive way of asking people? How do we know what the majority of people believe today and the past? Because I know a handful of people who believe in eternal torment, but I can definitely not say for sure that the majority of bible-believing orthodox fundamentalist Christians believe it... I have no way of knowing it and my bet is a majority probably don't believe it. So why would some beliefs be considered unorthodox and how do you determine what goes on here in that way then? Do you see the theological bias I am speaking of?

 

[Call me Nic]

But that confuses me too. Is there some actual definitive poll done to show a certain belief is not orthodox or is not held by a majority of Christians? Both today and in the past as well? Because if there was a poll taken, for example for the question of whether eternal torment is eternal, how do we know the majority would say yes when there are scriptural arguments that can oppose it as well? That's kind of where I'm getting at by the bias thing.. Because I can see a majority of Bible-believing Christians getting polled agreeing that it is not an eternal torment chamber, along with some other beliefs. So what determines orthodoxy in this sense, if there is no definitive way of asking people? How do we know what the majority of people believe today and the past? Because I know a handful of people who believe in eternal torment, but I can definitely not say for sure that the majority of bible-believing orthodox fundamentalist Christians believe it... I have no way of knowing it and my bet is a majority probably don't believe it. So why would some beliefs be considered unorthodox and how do you determine what goes on here in that way then? Do you see the theological bias I am speaking of?

I definitely see your point. But most of Christian orthodoxy (speaking of beliefs and views, not the denomination) looks to the Nicean Creed as the summary of the faith. Everything within that creed is orthodox, and anything against it is unorthodox, to my understanding.

 

[Mathetes66]

eternal torment IS eternal and has been taught as orthodox Christian doctrine since the first century. Live with it rather than be controversial on your false doctrine.

 

[DM25]

eternal torment IS eternal and has been taught as orthodox Christian doctrine since the first century. Live with it rather than be controversial on your false doctrine.

No it is not, no it has not, and you are wrong, live with it.

 

[SarahsKnight]

eternal torment IS eternal and has been taught as orthodox Christian doctrine since the first century. Live with it rather than be controversial on your false doctrine.

Except for that whole part where it has every indication in the Bible. Just because something has been taught as orthodox and has been tradition for centuries doesn't mean it is Biblical. Hate to break it to you folk who can't even stand to know your enemies will be vanquished, but rather require that they live forever being tortured.

This is sick. When ECT proponents lash out like this, it's almost like they think death is too good for unbelievers. They want to see - or at least know of - them suffering without end. But there's hardly a shred of evidence for it in Scripture, aside from being purely sadistic. Is this what Good does to Evil? Return the suffering Evil brings upon its head infinitely-fold? But what does God say in Scripture? Heck. Jesus Himself? "Can DESTROY both soul and body in hell." Destroy does not mean to torture endlessly and never allow to die. Sorry, it just doesn't. But this and a hundred other verses that can almost speak no clearer against the immortal souls/eternal conscious torment doctrine have to be turned upside down in order to accommodate very few verses that can so much a be compatible with ECT. .... Why? Tradition. Purely for the sake of so-called orthodoxy. And in extreme cases, a most fleshly and carnal secret desire for the greatest vengeance imaginable to be brought to their enemies.

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

I have recently started a thread in Controversial Theology. No Calvinist told me to post it there. I thought it was a controversial thread starting there. The decision was mine.

 

[Mathetes66]

"This is sick. When ECT proponents lash out like this, it's almost like they think death is too good for unbelievers. They want to see - or at least know of - them suffering without end."

First of all your doctrine is heresy & has been since the first century. It is sick & cruel not to warn people of the danger of eternal damnation.

Second, I did not lash out at all. I simply told the truth in love. The truth that has been taught in Christianity since its inception is that there is eternal torment for those who rebel against God & refuse to have Him rule over them.

The truth told in love is that this has been the consistent teaching of Christianity ever since the first century when it started.

The truth told in love is that what you believe has been heretical since the first century & contrary to the Christian faith.

That is speaking the truth in love & your need to repent of your false teaching and live with the truth as taught by the prophets, Jesus, the apostles & been passed down through the early church fathers to the apostolic, orthodox churches to this very day.

I will let the brother of Jesus, Jude speak.

Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality & deny our only Master & Lord, Jesus Christ.

Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day— just as Sodom & Gomorrah & the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality & pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Yet in like manner these people also, relying on their dreams, defile the flesh, reject authority, and blaspheme the glorious ones. But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.” But these people blaspheme all that they do not understand, and they are destroyed by all that they, like unreasoning animals, understand instinctively. Woe to them! For they walked in the way of Cain and abandoned themselves for the sake of gain to Balaam’s error and perished in Korah’s rebellion. These are hidden reefs at your love feasts, as they feast with you without fear, shepherds feeding themselves; waterless clouds, swept along by winds; fruitless trees in late autumn, twice dead, uprooted; wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.

It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones, to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” These are grumblers, malcontents, following their own sinful desires; they are loud-mouthed boasters, showing favoritism to gain advantage.

But you must remember, beloved, the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ. They said to you, “In the last time there will be SCOFFERS, following their own ungodly passions.” It is these who CAUSE divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit. But you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life. And have mercy on those who doubt; SAVE OTHERS BY SNATCHING THEM OUT OF THE FIRE; to others show mercy with fear, hating even the garment stained by the flesh.


Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling & to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion & authority, before all time & now & forever. Amen.

That is what I seek to do every day, preaching the gospel, warning people of eternal damnation away from the Presence of the Lord, seeking to snatch people out of the fire. That is what a loving person does. That is what Christ did. That is what the apostles & early Scripture writers did, speaking the truth in love. And that is what orthodox spiritually born Christians have been doing ever since the first century.

 

[SkyWriting]

I asked this question in the feedback section but I got no reply. I'm just wondering, who has the vote on what topic is considered "controversial" on here?

Here is your answer:
Statement of Purpose
Controversial Christian Theology Statement of Purpose

This forum is for discussing and debating topics that do not directly oppose the Nicene Creed, but are not considered to be traditional orthodox Christian theology on CF. These unorthodox topics may not contradict the Nicene Creed. All posts must to adhere to the CF Statement of Faith. This forum is open to Christian members only. Please refer to our faith groups list for clarification. This forum is not intended to be a "safe haven" for members who hold unorthodox Christian beliefs.

Statement of Purpose - Controversial Christian Theology Statement of Purpose

 

[SkyWriting]

It is sick & cruel not to warn people of the danger of eternal damnation.

What - no scripture on sick & cruel?

Hebrews 12:14
Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

Galatians 5:22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

1 Corinthians 13:1-13
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;

 

[Mathetes66]

"Jesus Himself? "Can DESTROY both soul & body in hell." Destroy does not mean to torture endlessly and never allow to die. Sorry, it just doesn't."

First of all Jesus said you can't kill the soul. CANNOT. It is immortal. You can kill the corruptible, perishable human body that we presently have. But you can't kill the soul. It continues forever. So no matter how many times you say it can be killed, Jesus says it cannot. One either believes Jesus or one disbelieves.

2 Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?

Second when all people are resurrected bodily, both believers & unbelievers, the new bodies we get are imperishable, uncorruptible, immortal. (I Cor 15) They last forever & can't be annihilated, they can't perish like the old bodies. They have now become like the immortal soul.

Third, you apparently haven't done a study on the Greek word for destroy there, 'apollumi' or another word translated as destroyed ('katargeo')

As the well known & respected scholar in the biblical languages, A.E. Vine has stated about this word in His Dictionary of Old & New Testament Words:

Apollumi: The idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being but of well-being. This is clear from its uses. All one has to do is look up the various verses.

One simple one is that the devil is called the 'destroyer & is said to be destroyed (same words)

God said to him: “I cast you as a profane thing out of the mountain [government] of God; and I destroyed you O covering cherub from the midst of the fiery stones” (Ezekiel 28:16).

Well then if destroy means annihilate, the devil was annihilated a longgggg time ago. But wait, did that really happen? Or does destroy mean something else other than what a person reading it in English would believe without doing any study on this word in the orignal Biblical language?

The devil wasn't annihilated but brought to loss from where he was, by being cast out of heaven to the earth. He is very much active on this earth, continuing to deceive people into thinking he isn't real or Gehenna isn't real & being sent there isn't eternal torment.

To understand this seemingly apparent contradiction, we need to consider the contextual meaning of the Hebrew word translated “destroyed.” This Hebrew word, ’abad (Strong’s #6), is commonly used in the Hebrew Scriptures and may be translated “to perish, to vanish, to destroy or to put to death” depending on the context and the verb stem in the Hebrew (The King James Version OT Hebrew Lexicon).

In the context of this passage, Satan was “destroyed … from the midst of the fiery stones.” The sense is that God is going to cause Satan to vanish or be removed from His presence. When we compare what is said in Ezekiel 28 with other scriptures pertaining to Satan’s fate, it becomes clear that God is going to eventually bind the devil permanently, rendering him useless in terms of continuing to deceive humans.

Many centuries after Ezekiel penned his prophecy, Paul wrote to the Corinthians about Satan, calling him “the god of this age” (2 Cor 4:4). This scripture and many others prove that the devil was alive and actively opposing God on earth during the life of Paul and the rest of the apostles. Moreover, Satan remains alive and committed to the destruction of God’s Church and its saints today (1 Peter 5:8).

Even though Satan is a spirit being, God is going to “destroy” the influence & power that the devil has had over mankind. Christ’s death facilitates this action. As the writer of Hebrews explains, “Through death He [Christ] might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil” (Heb 2:14).

Here again the devil is described as DESTROYED after Christ's death on the cross. This is the second time the devil has been destroyed. Seems like you just can't annihilate a spirit, those pesky immortal spirits.

Here is the other Greek word, 'katargeo' that is translated destroy.

In this passage it does not mean to destroy in the sense of do away with or make nonexistent. The word translated “destroy” is from the Greek word katargeo, meaning “to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative; to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency; to deprive of force, influence, power” (The New American Standard Greek Lexicon).

Even though Satan will not die, God will render him useless in his efforts to deceive humans by restraining him along with his angels. Again Jude 1:6 above.

What Peter wrote (spirits in prison in Tartarus) agrees with the other writers concerning the destruction of Satan by binding or restraining him. The devil’s powers are limited to what God allows to fulfill His purpose.

The devil is bound for a 1000 years so he has no ability to deceive or influence humans. There is true peace on earth for 1000 years with no war or animals eating meat but will eat vegetation, etc.

Then he is released again & quickly deceived the world & turns them against Christ. What is Satan’s destined end? The Bible shows that the devil will not die, but rather that he will suffer torment.

After Satan’s deception following the 1,000 years, he will be “cast into the lake of fire & brimstone” where he “will be tormented day & night forever & ever” (Rev 20:10). The fire will have no effect on him because he is spirit.



Again Jesus taught: Jesus said, “But those who are counted worthy to attain that age & the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; NOR CAN THEY DIE ANYMORE--for they are equal to the angels & are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection” (Luke 20:35-36). So we see from the Bible that spirit will not die.

The soul is immortal, the new resurrected bodies are immortal & imperishable, they are indestructable & uncorruptible. They are also meant to last forever. They are like the resurrected body of Jesus. He should know.

So, how is Satan destroyed? From all we have seen, both the Greek & Hebrew Scriptures reveal that Satan, as well as his demons, will be spiritually bound & constrained by God in darkness forever. Satan’s influence, his deception & his evil works will be brought to ruin from what he used to do. The devil & his demons will, as spirit beings, continue to exist, albeit in a tormented state of mind—a just punishment administered by an all-powerful & righteous God.

God says in Gen 6:7,13,17; 7:4; 9:11,15 that he would destroy mankind & the earth. Did He annihilate those people or annihilate the earth? No. Those people has their bodies killed but their soul & spirit remain & they will be resurrected again on judgment day. They experience ruin of their bodies temporarily but not the soul & spirit.

The earth also experienced ruin & catastrophism all over the globe, but it didn't disappear or was annihilated, non-existent.

In Exodus 8:9, did God destroy all the frogs in Egypt? No, God kept some alive in the river.

Again in Exodus 12:13 God didn't annihilate or cause nonexistence to those who didn't apply the blood to their doors in Egypt & saw their first born die. He caused their soul & spirit to 'disappear' from the physical realm.

Was God evil for allowing the destroying angel to cause the death of those children because the parents refused to believe God was going to judge them? Some parents did have faith & applied the blood & their first born didn't die. God is holy & a righteous judge & will carry out His judgment but He is also merciful to those who obey.

Jesus talks about those in Sodom & Gomorrah are still existing, waiting for judgment even though their physical bodies were killed. And that they will have a lesser degree of punishment than those in Capernaum.



Lev 23:30 And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people.

Again the soul & spirit can't be killed, they are immortal, so destroying them is not annihilating or causing them to cease to exist. They will be resurrected in an indestructible body that unites back with the soul.

When people physically died (Jame's definition: the body apart from the soul is dead) & were resurrected in the Bible, it mentions their spirit & soul returned to their body again. They are still there after death.

Deut 6:15 (For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you) lest the anger of the LORD thy God be kindled against thee & destroy thee from off the FACE OF THE EARTH.

Deut 7:24 And he shall deliver their kings into thine hand, and thou shalt destroy their NAME FROM UNDER HEAVEN.

2 Sam 1:14 And David said unto him, How wast thou not afraid to stretch forth thine hand to destroy the LORD'S anointed?

Was this man able to destroy Saul & annihilate him & bring him to nonexistence? No. We know from Samuel's prophecy that when Saul & his son Jonathan were killed in battle, they both joined Samuel in Sheol, in the compartment of the departed souls, in a spiritual place where people's souls go after they physically died.

Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God & escheweth evil? & still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

Was Job destroyed by annihilation or brought to nonexistence? No, but he was brought ruin & lack of well-being, which is what the world usually means. Job believed in the Redeemer & believed in the resurrection of the body, where in that body he would then see God (Job 19:23-27).

Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God.

There are worms that eat up & cause the physical, corrupt, perishable body decay but there are worms that never die in the spiritual realm in Gehenna, where souls & bodies cannot be killed but they can be brought to ruin from what they were formerly.
(to be continued)


Daniel 4:23 And whereas the king saw a watcher and an holy one coming down from heaven, and saying, Hew the tree down, and destroy it; yet leave the stump of the roots thereof in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him.

Nebuchadnezzar was figuratively DESTROYED, yet he remained alive. What was destroyed was his power & influence as a world ruler. He was humbled before God.

Daniel 7:26 But the judgment shall sit & they shall TAKE AWAY HIS DOMINION, to consume & to DESTROY IT--unto the end.

Haggai 2:22 I will destroy the STRENGTH of the kingdoms of the heathen...

Matt 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

Could Herod destroy Jesus? Bring him to annihilation & non-existence?

Matt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Matt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are NOT ABLE TO KILL THE SOUL; but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul & body in hell.

Notice it does NOT say but fear Him who is able to eventually kill both body & soul in hell (Gehenna, Lake of Fire)

matt 12:14 Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.

Again can Jesus be annihilated or brought to non-existence, even eventually?

Again! Matt 27:20 But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas & destroy Jesus.

Mark 1:24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.

Can Jesus annihilate a spirit, kill it? No. He already taught that. Yet at one point they ask if He has come to torment, then in this passage if He has come to destroy? It is not extinction but ruin, loss not of being but of well-being.

Again concerning Jesus: Mark 3:6 (Mk 11:18; Luke 19:47) And the Pharisees went forth & straightway took counsel with the Herodians against him, how they might destroy him.

Rom 14:15 (vs 20) But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.

Can I annihilate someone & render them extinguished, non-existent. Of course not. The word doesn't mean that but one can bring a Christian to ruin in their faith by eating meat when they do not, violating their conscience.

I Cor 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

I John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
(to be continued)

 

[Mathetes66]

"It is sick & cruel not to warn people of the danger of eternal damnation."

Ezek 3:18 When I say to a wicked person, 'You will surely die' & you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade them from their evil ways in order to save their life, that wicked person will die for their sin & I will hold you accountable for their blood.

Ezek 33:6 But if the watchman sees the sword coming and fails to blow the trumpet, so that the people are not warned, and the sword comes and takes away a life, then that one is taken away in his iniquity, but I will hold the watchman accountable for his blood.'

2 Chronicles 36:15,16 Time and again the LORD, the God of their fathers, sent word to His people through His messengers, because He had compassion on them and on His dwelling place. But the people mocked these messengers of God and despised their words. They scoffed at the prophets until the LORD's anger could no longer be restrained & nothing could be done (no more any remedy).

Luke 13:1-5 At that time, some of those present told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2To this He replied, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered this fate? 3No, I tell you. But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4Or those eighteen who were killed when the tower of Siloam collapsed on them: Do you think that they were more sinful than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5No, I tell you. But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”

 

[Mathetes66]

Cold Case Christianity: the ancient teaching of hell (Gehenna) being conscious eternal punishment.

What Did Early Christians Believe About Hell? | Cold Case Christianity

As we seek to understand what the Bible teaches about Hell, it may be helpful to understand what the earliest believers believed and taught. The teachings of some of these believers has been preserved for us in the writings of ancient church leaders (known as the Early Church Fathers). While their writings are neither canonical nor authoritative, they do help us to understand what those closest to the apostles first believed about Hell. As we assemble the teachings of these first church leaders, several patterns emerge related to the nature of Hell. The Early Church Fathers, with very few exceptions, agree with traditional views descriptions of Hell as a place of eternal, conscious torment:

1. Hell is a place of judgment for those who have rejected God and denied Jesus as their Savior
2. Hell is a place of separation from God
3. Hell is a place of torment in which the rebellious are in anguish and pain
4. Hell is a place where the rebellious are tormented forever and are conscious of this torment for all eternity (In fact, the eternal duration of their torment is often compared to the eternal duration of the reward of the saved)

At the same time, the earliest Church Fathers are ambiguous on those areas where the Bible is ALSO ambiguous.

1. The exact nature of the torment of the rebellious is unknown
2. The manner in which the rebellious are kept alive in spite of ‘deathly’ anguish is also un-described

The Early Church Fathers simply reflected the clearest teachings of the Bible. Here is a very brief assessment of several quotes made by early Christians about the nature of Hell:

From “The Epistle of Barnabas” (70-130AD)
The author of the Epistle of Barnabas is unknown, but many consider him to simply be who he said he was, Barnabas, the associate of Paul who is mentioned in the Book of Acts. The letter was written to new converts to Christianity:

The way of darkness is crooked, and it is full of cursing. It is the way of eternal death with punishment. (“Epistle of Barnabas”)

From Ignatius of Antioch (110AD)
Ignatius was a student of the Apostle John, and succeeded the Apostle Peter as the Bishop of Antioch. He wrote a number of important letters to believers in churches in the area:

Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death. how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God. for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him. (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2)

From Clement of Rome (150AD)
Clement was Bishop of Rome from 88 to 98AD, and his teaching reflects the early traditions of the Church. “Second Clement” reportedly a recorded sermon, and Clement discusses the nature of Hell:

If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment (“Second Clement” 5:5)

But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’ (“Second Clement” 17:7)

From “The Martyrdom of Polycarp” (155AD)
This work was written by an Early Church Father (unknown author) and is dated very early in the history of Christianity. It describes the death of Polycarp, a disciple of the Apostle John, and also describes early teachings of the church:

Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire (“Martyrdom of Polycarp” 2:3)

From Tatian (160AD)
Tatian was an early Assyrian believer who moved to Rome as a pagan and eventually became a Christian. Interestingly, he read the Jewish Scriptures and from these became convinced that other pagan ideas about the world were simply false. He was a student of Justin Martyr and wrote about the unreasonableness of paganism and the truth of Christianity:

We who are now easily susceptible to death, will afterwards receive immortality with either enjoyment or with pain. (Ante-Nicene Fathers 1.71)

From Athenagoras of Athens (175AD)
Athenagoras was a philosopher and citizen of Athens who became a Christian (possibly from Platonism) and wrote two important apologetic works; “Apology” or “Embassy for the Christians”, and a “Treatise on the Resurrection”:

We are persuaded that when we are removed from the present life we will live another life, better than the present one…or, if they fall with the rest, they will endure a worse life, one in fire. For God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, who are mere by-products. For animals perish and are annihilated. On these grounds, it is not likely that we would wish to do evil. (“Apology”)

From Theophilus of Antioch (181AD)
Theophilus was the Patriarch of Antioch from 169 to 183AD. He was born a pagan and converted to Christianity after reading the scriptures. He was very zealous about protecting the orthodoxy of the earliest believers and he wrote a defense of the faith to a man named Autolycus:

Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire (“To Autolycus” 1:14)

From Irenaeus (189AD)
Irenaeus was bishop of Lugdunum in Gaul (now Lyon, France) at the end of the second century. He was a disciple of Polycarp and a notable early apologist for the faith. He wrote several volumes defending the faith against Gnosticism and other early heresies of the Church, and he often compared eternal punishment to eternal reward, drawing the conclusion that one endured as long as the other:

…Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven,, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess’ to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send ‘spiritual wickednesses,’ and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some from the beginning of their Christian course, and others from the date of their repentance, and may surround them with everlasting glory. (“Against Heresies” 1:10:10)

The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever (“Against Heresies” 4:28:2)

From Clement of Alexandria (195AD)
Titus Flavius Clemens was the first significant and recorded Christian from the church of Alexandria, Egypt. His parents were Greek and he was raised with a solid, formal Greek education. While he had a tendency to blend Greek and Christian philosophies, his view on the issue of Hell was derived from the scriptures:

All souls are immortal, even those of the wicked. Yet, it would be better for them if they were not deathless. For they are punished with the endless vengeance of quenchless fire. Since they do not die, it is impossible for them to have an end put to their misery. (from a post-Nicene manuscript fragment)

From Tertullian (197AD)
Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullianus was a Romanized African citizen who was born in Carthage (now Tunisia). He became a Christian and was a powerful and influential apologist for the faith, writing prolifically in defense of the doctrines of orthodoxy:

These have further set before us the proofs He has given of His majesty in judgments by floods and fires, the rules appointed by Him for securing His favor, as well as the retribution in store for the ignoring, forsaking and keeping them, as being about at the end of all to adjudge His worshippers to everlasting life, and the wicked to the doom of fire at once without ending and without break, raising up again all the dead from the beginning, reforming and renewing them with the object of awarding either recompense. (“Apology” 18:3)

Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility (“Apology” 44:12–13)

Therefore after this there is neither death nor repeated resurrections, but we shall be the same that we are now, and still unchanged–the servants of God, ever with God, clothed upon with the proper substance of eternity; but the profane, and all who are not true worshippers of God, in like manner shall be consigned to the punishment of everlasting fire–that fire which, from its very nature indeed, directly ministers to their incorruptibility. (“Apology” 48:12)

From Hippolytus of Rome (212AD)
Hippolytus was one of the most prolific writers of the early Church, and he was often at theological odds with the early Popes and church leaders of his time. He appears to have been a student of Irenaeus, and wrote MANY volumes of history, apologetics and Biblical teaching:

Standing before [Christ’s] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: ‘Just is your judgment!’ And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them (“Against the Greeks” 3)

From Felix Minucius (226AD)
Felix Marcus Minucius is perhaps the earliest known Latin apologist for the Christian faith. He wrote “Octavius”, a dialogue on Christianity between a non-believer named Caecilius Natalis and a Christian named Octavius Januarius (who was a lawyer, friend and student of Minucius Felix:

I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment… Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them (“Octavius” 34:12–5:3)

From Cyprian of Carthage (252-253 AD)
Thascius Caecilius Cyprianus was bishop at Carthage. He had an excellent Greek education and wrote several key letters and treatises in which he discussed doctrines of the Church:

An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies… The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life (“To Demetrian” 24)

Oh,what and how great will that day be at its coming, beloved brethren, when the Lord shall begin to count up His people, and to recognize the deservings of each one by the inspection of His divine knowledge, to send the guilty to Gehenna, and to set on fire our persecutors with the perpetual burning of a penal fire, but to pay to us the reward of our faith and devotion! (“To Thibaris” 55:10)

From Lactantius (307AD)
Lucius Caelius Firmianus Lactantius was a Latin speaking native of North Africa. He was an expert in rhetoric and he taught the subject in the city of Nicomedia at the request of Emperor Diocletian. He also wrote several apologetic and doctrinal works:

But, however, the sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire…The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment …Then they whose piety shall have been approved of will receive the reward of immortality; but they whose sins and crimes shall have been brought to light will not rise again, but will be hidden in the same darkness with the wicked, being destined to certain punishment. (“Divine Institutes” 7:21)

From Cyril of Jerusalem (350AD)
Cyril was a well respected theologian of the early Church and a bishop of the church at Jerusalem. He wrote twenty three teaching lectures on the doctrines of the Church and delivered these lectures while he was a presbyter in Jerusalem:

We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed… (“Catechetical Lectures” 18:19)

The real and true life then is the Father, who through the Son in the Holy Spirit pours forth as from a fountain His heavenly gifts to all; and through His love to man, the blessings of the life eternal are promised without fail to us men also. We must not disbelieve the possibility of this, but having an eye not to our own weakness but to His power, we must believe; for with God all things are possible. And that this is possible, and that we may look for eternal life, Daniel declares, And of the many righteous shall they shine as the stars forever and ever. And Paul says, And so shall we be ever with the Lord: for the being forever with the lord implies the life eternal. But most plainly of all the Savior Himself says in the Gospel, And these shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into life eternal. (“Catechetical Lectures” 18:28)

While this survey of early teachings on the nature of Hell may seem a bit long and laborious, it does help us to understand what the first believers learned and taught about the nature of the eternal conscious torment of those who reject Christ. Over and over again, we see that the Early Church Fathers believed that those who enter Hell are NOT annihilated or destroyed.

 

[Mathetes66]

In summary, these early believers understood the Scriptures to teach that:

1. Souls live on after the grave. Even those who are assigned to Hell are “immortal”, “indestructible” and “abide forever” Those assigned to Hell (Gehenna) will be “detained in everlasting fire” for a period of time that is as “equally perpetual and unending” as the eternal life of those who are in Heaven.

2. The rebellious will exist in Hell with an “eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins”. They will “burn eternally in fire” and they will never “be consumed” Those tormented in Hell will never “have respite” and their torment will never “be at an end”. “Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies”

3. Souls in Hell will NOT be allowed to die or cease to exist. “They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment”, but this is simply not the case. The fire of Hell is an “unquenchable fire”. It is “clever” and “burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them.”

4. The torment suffered by those in Hell will be incredibly unbearable. It will feel as though “a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body” will continually burst forth from the body “with unceasing pain”.

This description of eternal conscious torment in Hell is certainly horrifying. It is hard to believe and even harder to accept. It is not something that we would wish on our worst enemy, and it is not something that we, as believers, can ignore. The Church Fathers affirm the Biblical truth related to the orthodox doctrine of Hell. It is a place of eternal conscious torment and a place that should motivate us to reach others with the truth, even as it motivates us to live a life that is worthy of the God who created us. C.S. Lewis encouraged us to view Hell not only from the eyes of those who don’t believe, but also from our own concerned and cautious position as believers:

“In all discussions of hell we should keep steadily before our eyes the possible damnation, not of our enemies nor our friends… but of ourselves” (C.S. Lewis in “The Problem of Pain”)

Jesus shows us the reality: His physical body was in the tomb, His spirit was received by the Father & His soul was in Sheol/Hades, in an area called Paradise for 3 days & nights with Abraham & the OT saints. When He was resurrected, Jesus' spirit & soul returned to the new resurrected body.

 

[DM25]

This isn't a thread meant to discuss and debate this topic, so please don't. I know what God confirmed with me in scripture about this and I can only pray he opens your eyes because it's obvious there's no changing your mind, so I will agree to disagree. I only used that as an example. I got my question answered that it's based on some niccean creed, so be it. Still don't agree it should be added on here and it isn't orthodox because I believe the early church never taught eternal torment... Jesus taught torment, but not eternal torment. The eternal part was always talked about as destruction and death. But it is so we'll have to live with it.

 

[DM25]

First of all your doctrine is heresy & has been since the first century. It is sick & cruel not to warn people of the danger of eternal damnation.

Alright now I know from now on I won't take a thing you say seriously. Because you literally just said a different belief/interpretation that can be backed up is heresy... And this does not relate to the gospel message at all. God will surely judge you for that but I pray you repent from saying that. Being separated from God for eternity, which includes perishing and not existing, is also eternal damnation. Think before you speak... You sound a little unstable.

 

[Mathetes66]

Thank you for responding & for your judgments. I was not the one who said to me: "I am sick to believe what I believe."

I just repeated the term already said about me but that it would be sick NOT to warn someone of the danger of conscious eternal torment in Gehenna and it would be cruel and not loving NOT to warn them.

God Himself even says that!

Ezek 33:11Say to them: ‘As surely as I live, declares the Lord GOD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked should turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’

To which I hope I am doing the same thing by the grace of God.

That which deviates and is heterodox (other than doxy--the sound teaching of Christianity). is called heresy. Your different belief did not come until much later & was that which the early church fathers defended AGAINST. If the early church didn't teach it & the early church fathers didn't teach it & the early apostolic churches didn't teach it, then when it started popping up as contrary to the faith once for all delivered to the saints--then what would you call it.

Both can't be true. That is obvious. Mine comes ever since the first century, backed up by the early church fathers, the Creeds hammered out & the apostolic churches' teachings from Scripture. Yours came much later & contradicted all this ancient teaching. I make no apology for it nor need to repent of this ancient Christian orthodox teaching.

I have gone through this many times with annihilationists over the 45 years I have been a stable spiritually born again Christian, with no mental health issues in my life.

For you say this doesn't relate to the gospel message makes me wonder greatly what is the gospel message you preach.

2 Thess 1:5-9 This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering— since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you & to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God & ON THOSE who DO NOT OBEY THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS. 9They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His might...

So much for not having anything to do with the gospel. Scripture does have a way of speaking the truth & I am sticking to it.

Jesus gave extreme warnings to people in the strongest language imaginable, warning people to repent of their false teachings, pride & opposition to God, being His enemies.

John the Baptist started that out as a true prophet of God: who WARNED you to flee from the coming WRATH OF God. That was part of his gospel message: repent, flee from the wrath to come, be baptized, confessing your sins, so you might receive forgiveness of sins by faith in the Lamb of God, that takes away the sin of the world.

Jesus did the same in Matthew 23 & Matthew 15, calling the hypocritical Jewish religious leaders 'white-washed tombs' & telling them point blank: earlier John warned you to flee from the wrath by coming to Me & you refused.

Now you have hardened your hearts to the Holy Spirit to the point now you are actively trying to kill Me, a Man who told you the truth. Now you are at the point of no return: how can you ESCAPE that wrath to come. You make people twice a son of hell (Gehenna) as yourself. That is the strongest language imaginable & coming from the righteous One who will be the judge of the living & the dead.

I have seen people literally rescued out of the flames & saved by the Lord, walking miracles & friends of mine. I thank God for being a drug/alcohol counselor & program director! Praise the Lord.

I thank God that He is my righteous judge not you, you don't know anything about me, telling me that I am 'unstable' for believing what I do, as if I have mental health problems. May God FORGIVE you for your unrighteous judgment. You condemn me to judgment, I pray for God's mercy & forgiveness for you. That is loving thing to do.

Thou shalt not bear false witness. And sadly, that is the unrighteous judgment that has come to me numerous times from annihilationists like yourself & the prior poster.

I am sick to believe what I believe about conscious eternal torment/judgment from Scripture & ancient Christianity...I am unstable...God will judge me. Ad hominems without any basis of Scripture or knowledge of who I am. God knows. May He have mercy on you.

God will vindicate His witnesses as to who is speaking the truth in love.

It isn't until you realize what lost people are facing, especially those addicted to drugs & alcohol--drunkards will not inherit the kingdom of God--that you have love & compassion for them & that you will go to the Nth degree to see them saved.

Enough said. I received what I normally receive. Thank you Lord, when men say all manner of evil about us as they said that to You first.


I already posted multiple examples of the earth church fathers from the first century onward that taught conscious eternal torment for those that perish as enemies of God & disobedient to the gospel, as basic foundational Christian teaching.

There are many Creeds from Christiandom that clarify the truth of Christian doctrine. The Nicene Creed is only one of the many: the Apostles' Creed, the Athanasian Creed, the Chalcedonian Creed on the two natures of Christ, First Helvetic Confession, The Augsburg Confession, The Westminster Confession of Faith, etc.

Here is an example from the Westminster Confession (1646), Ch. 32

"The end of God's appointing this day is for the manifestation of the glory of His mercy, in the eternal salvation of the elect & of His justice, in the damnation of the reprobate, who are wicked & disobedient. For then shall the righteous go into everlasting life, and receive that fullness of joy and refreshing, which shall come from the presence of the Lord: but the wicked, who know not God, and obey not the Gospel of Jesus Christ, shall be cast into eternal torments, and be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power. (Matt. 25:31-46, Rom. 2:5-6, Rom. 9:22-23, Matt. 25:21, Acts 3:19, 2 Thess. 1:7-10).

The Belgic Confession (this confession takes pains to point out the continuity of Reformed belief with that of the ancient Christian creeds):

Belgic Confession


Heb 5:11-6:3 About this we have much to say & it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. 12For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again THE BASIC PRINCIPLES OF THE ORACLES OF GOD. You need milk, not solid food, 13for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. 14But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.

Therefore let us leave the ELEMENTARY TEACHINGS OF CHRIST & go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works & of faith toward God & of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead & ETERNAL JUDGMENT.

Eternal judgment is the most basic elementary & first teachings of children skilled in milk. This is what ancient Christian children were taught as ground level basics of Christian doctrine--BACK THEN--IN 1ST CENTURY CHRISTIANITY!

"It is precisely this question that we are to seek to address together. Because if this is the teaching of sacred Scripture, then clearly few things in Scripture will have a more monumental impact upon the seriousness of our ministries and the broken-heartedness of our preaching."

"Few things will clarify our vision of what it means to be MINISTERS OF THE NEW COVENANT than to recognize with stark clarity that our great business in life is to pluck men & women & boys & girls from the eternal burnings."

"And the great privilege of our ministry will one day be to see those who otherwise would have been eternally condemned before the majestic righteousness of God shining like stars in the heavens and like jewels in the crowns of our own ministry." (John Piper to a conference of pastors)

One of the royal princesses of the realm coming out of a cathedral service in England spoke to the dean of the chapter of the cathedral, and said to him, "Is it true, dean, that there is a place called 'hell?'" To which the dean apparently replied, “Madame, the Scriptures say so, Christian people have always believed so & the Church of England confesses so.” To which she responded, “Then in God’s name, why do you not tell us so?”

Here is a detailed biblical refutation of this false teaching of annihilationism & I will end with that & move on to other threads.

An Eternal Hell is for Real - The Heresy of Annihilationism?

 

[david shelby]

Why the generalization?

What generalization?

Reformed and non-reformed believers tend to agree on 98% of doctrines.

40% maybe. But on the Calvinist side even that 40% is tainted by a darkness of their dark view that makes God out to be as evil as Satan.