Something that prevented me from being a Protestant

[Daniel Peres]

After I decided to leave atheism and return to Christianity, I decided I had to choose what church to join. I was certain I did not want to return to the Catholic Church. But I kept running into the same problem with Protestant churches. Why did so many Protestants lie about the Catholic Church? I kept hearing accusations like Catholics worship Mary, and Catholics believe they earn salvation by doing good works.

Now, there are many legitimate differences between Catholics and Protestants. I even had my own issues with the Catholic Church. So I didn’t understand why the lies?

I would always explain that Catholics don’t do those things. I would always get the same response which was something like, “Yes Catholics believe those things, they just don’t know it. And I would always respond, “I think I would know if, as a former Catholic, I was worshiping Mary, and earning my salvation.”

How different is this from when Jews and Muslims say, “Christians are polytheistic whether they know it or not”? Or when leftists say, “White people are all racist whether they know it or not.”

I’m just saying, there are legitimate differences like infant baptism, and the real presence in the Eucharist. I see no reason to add lies to the mix. Especially since Jesus said the Devil is the father of all lies.

This is one thing that made it impossible for me to be a Protestant.

 

[sandman]

After I decided to leave atheism and return to Christianity, I decided I had to choose what church to join. I was certain I did not want to return to the Catholic Church. But I kept running into the same problem with Protestant churches. Why did so many Protestants lie about the Catholic Church? I kept hearing accusations like Catholics worship Mary, and Catholics believe they earn salvation by doing good works.

Now, there are many legitimate differences between Catholics and Protestants. I even had my own issues with the Catholic Church. So I didn’t understand why the lies?

I would always explain that Catholics don’t do those things. I would always get the same response which was something like, “Yes Catholics believe those things, they just don’t know it. And I would always respond, “I think I would know if, as a former Catholic, I was worshiping Mary, and earning my salvation.”

How different is this from when Jews and Muslims say, “Christians are polytheistic whether they know it or not”? Or when leftists say, “White people are all racist whether they know it or not.”

I’m just saying, there are legitimate differences like infant baptism, and the real presence in the Eucharist. I see no reason to add lies to the mix. Especially since Jesus said the Devil is the father of all lies.

This is one thing that made it impossible for me to be a Protestant.

I also came out of atheism and something much worse….
(6 years later)
I attended several different denominations and various groups…. many of which had doctrinal differences and that didn’t make sense to me. I told God I just wanted to know the Bible and what He says … Shortly afterwards that was made available to me at a gig my band was playing at. A famous guitarist, singer & songwriter pulled up next to me at a place where men don’t talk to each other (the urinal), and that convo started my quest into biblical research….an organization which I was part of for 12 years.

I can’t thank God enough for saving my life and setting my course …. I never could have or would have survived in a religious denomination (for my own reasons) My association or identification is not with any denomination or religion ….I am a “believer” and Home Fellowships are my gig now.

For me when it comes to the Truth …it is the Word of God that I measure everything against …. That is my only source of faith and practice.

 

[Daniel Peres]

I also came out of atheism and something much worse….
(6 years later)
I attended several different denominations and various groups…. many of which had doctrinal differences and that didn’t make sense to me. I told God I just wanted to know the Bible and what He says … Shortly afterwards that was made available to me at a gig my band was playing at. A famous guitarist, singer & songwriter pulled up next to me at a place where men don’t talk to each other (the urinal), and that convo started my quest into biblical research….an organization which I was part of for 12 years.

I can’t thank God enough for saving my life and setting my course …. I never could have or would have survived in a religious denomination (for my own reasons) My association or identification is not with any denomination or religion ….I am a “believer” and Home Fellowships are my gig now.

For me when it comes to the Truth …it is the Word of God that I measure everything against …. That is my only source of faith and practice.

But I am not really talking about theological differences and who’s right and wrong. I’m really talking about how wrong it is to intentionally misrepresent the theology of others.

 

[Soyeong]

I'm neither a Catholic nor Protestant.

Out of curiosity, are there things that you've found that Catholics have taught about what Protestants believe that aren't true?

It is easy for someone to make observations about a group from the outside that misunderstand what they are doing and to never be corrected because they don't communicate with people from that group. For example, a preacher can look at pictures of Catholics bowing down and praying in front of a statute of Mary and tell others that Catholics are committing idolatry by worshiping Mary. Even if that is not what Catholics are doing, at the very least it looks like that is what Catholics are doing, so the preacher who told others that is what Catholics are doing would simply be wrong and would not by lying unless they personally believed that is not what Catholics are doing while telling others that is what Catholics are doing. Furthermore, while there is room for a preacher to be wrong about what someone else is doing regardless of whether or not the other recognizes that is what they are doing, there is also room for a preacher to be right about that. For example, it could the case that it is idolatry to bow down and pray in front of a statue of Mary even if Catholics think that doing that is not idolatry. However, there is nothing inherent to Protestantism that necessitates lying about Catholics, so even if it were the case that that is what some Protestants are doing, that wouldn't make it impossible for you to be a Protestant.

 

[Tigger45]

Welcome to CF!

 

[Daniel Peres]

I'm neither a Catholic nor Protestant.

Out of curiosity, are there things that you've found that Catholics have taught about what Protestants believe that aren't true?

In all the Masses I have attended over the years, I have only heard Protestants mentioned once. The priest was asking the parishioners so be more generous with their donations. He made the comment about how some Protestant churches check their parishioners’ income to determine how much they tithe. Some do, so that’s no lie. Other than that, I have never heard anything from the Catholic Church about Protestants. If anything, the CC does compliment Protestants about participating in the proliferation movement.

It is easy for someone to make observations about a group from the outside that misunderstand what they are doing and to never be corrected because they don't communicate with people from that group. For example, a preacher can look at pictures of Catholics bowing down and praying in front of a statute of Mary and tell others that Catholics are committing idolatry by worshiping Mary. Even if that is not what Catholics are doing, at the very least it looks like that is what Catholics are doing, so the preacher who told others that is what Catholics are doing would simply be wrong and would not by lying unless they personally believed that is not what Catholics are doing while telling others that is what Catholics are doing. Furthermore, while there is room for a preacher to be wrong about what someone else is doing regardless of whether or not the other recognizes that is what they are doing, there is also room for a preacher to be right about that. For example, it could the case that it is idolatry to bow down and pray in front of a statue of Mary even if Catholics think that doing that is not idolatry.

You’re right, it is easy to make erroneous observations. Many Protestants graciously accept correction, but many continue to tell the lies, just like Jews and Muslims continue to say we are all polytheists.

However, there is nothing inherent to Protestantism that necessitates lying about Catholics, so even if it were the case that that is what some Protestants are doing, that wouldn't make it impossible for you to be a Protestant.

You’re right again, there is nothing inherent, so why is it such a prominent practice?

 

[Soyeong]

In all the Masses I have attended over the years, I have only heard Protestants mentioned once. The priest was asking the parishioners so be more generous with their donations. He made the comment about how some Protestant churches check their parishioners’ income to determine how much they tithe. Some do, so that’s no lie. Other than that, I have never heard anything from the Catholic Church about Protestants. If anything, the CC does compliment Protestants about participating in the proliferation movement.



You’re right, it is easy to make erroneous observations. Many Protestants graciously accept correction, but many continue to tell the lies, just like Jews and Muslims continue to say we are all polytheists.

You’re right again, there is nothing inherent, so why is it such a prominent practice?

I grew as a Baptist, was one for around 30 years, and I don't recall much of anything from the pulpit said about Catholics, though I did discuss Catholics occasionally with other people from my church, so from my experience it has not been a prominent practice, though it might be more prominent in other congregations. The Protestant movement was formed out of the rejection of some Catholic doctrine, so if it is more prominent on the whole, then perhaps it is from the focus of teaching why Protestants reject those doctrines.

If I say that our justification requires us to choose to be doers of the law (Romans 2:13), then people often reply with verses that speak against earning our justification as a wage even though I said nothing about earning our justification by obeying the law, so it is really easy for people to mistake what others have said as speaking in favor of earning our salvation. So again, I'm more inclined to think that others have made a mistake or are repeating a mistake said by others than to think that people are lying, though it is sad when people intentionally choose to lie about it.

 

[Daniel Peres]

I grew as a Baptist, was one for around 30 years, and I don't recall much of anything from the pulpit said about Catholics, though I did discuss Catholics occasionally with other people from my church, so from my experience it has not been a prominent practice, though it might be more prominent in other congregations. The Protestant movement was formed out of the rejection of some Catholic doctrine, so if it is more prominent on the whole, then perhaps it is from the focus of teaching why Protestants reject those doctrines.

I have done something few Protestants and Catholics have done. I actually read Martin Luther’s 95 Thesis. The fact is that the majority of the thesis contains nonsensical straw man arguments. So therefore, the Protestant movement was formed on many lies. Even the selling of indulgences was not a Catholic doctrine. There may have been some evil priests, but that was not Catholic teaching.

If I say that our justification requires us to choose to be doers of the law (Romans 2:13), then people often reply with verses that speak against earning our justification as a wage even though I said nothing about earning our justification by obeying the law, so it is really easy for people to mistake what others have said as speaking in favor of earning our salvation. So again, I'm more inclined to think that others have made a mistake or are repeating a mistake said by others than to think that people are lying, though it is sad when people intentionally choose to lie about it.

If Protestants aren’t be taught these lies from the pulpit, then where are they getting them from. But more importantly, why do they double down even after being corrected?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I have done something few Protestants and Catholics have done. I actually read Martin Luther’s 95 Thesis. The fact is that the majority of the thesis contains nonsensical straw man arguments. So therefore, the Protestant movement was formed on many lies. Even the selling of indulgences was not a Catholic doctrine. There may have been some evil priests, but that was not Catholic teaching.

If Protestants aren’t be taught these lies from the pulpit, then where are they getting them from. But more importantly, why do they double down even after being corrected?

Protestants are probably doubling down because they've heard about how bad some Tetzel Pretzels are for ones spiritual health and they're afraid that some other various foods might also be tainted. But, fortunately, we all know that Tetzel Pretzels weren't actually baked at the Pope's bakery.

Johann Tetzel | Indulgence Sales, Papal Authority, Reformation | Britannica

Johann Tetzel was a German Dominican friar whose preaching on indulgences, considered by many of his contemporaries to be an abuse of the sacrament of penance, sparked Martin Luther’s reaction. After entering the Dominican order, probably at Leipzig, Tetzel was appointed inquisitor for Poland

www.britannica.com

Martin Luther - Reformation, Indulgences, Theology | Britannica

Martin Luther - Reformation, Indulgences, Theology: In the fall of 1517 an ostensibly innocuous event quickly made Luther’s name a household word in Germany. Irritated by Johann Tetzel, a Dominican friar who was reported to have preached to the faithful that the purchase of a letter of...

www.britannica.com

End of story.

 

[Daniel Peres]

Protestants are probably doubling down because they've heard about how bad some Tetzel Pretzels are for ones spiritual health and they're afraid that some other various foods might also be tainted. But, fortunately, we all know that Tetzel Pretzels weren't actually baked at the Pope's bakery.

Interestingly, I have never been able to find any evidence of Tetzel baking any pretzels. I certainly have found accusations, but I have never been able to find any writing by Tetzel promoting any pretzels.

Johann Tetzel | Indulgence Sales, Papal Authority, Reformation | Britannica

Johann Tetzel was a German Dominican friar whose preaching on indulgences, considered by many of his contemporaries to be an abuse of the sacrament of penance, sparked Martin Luther’s reaction. After entering the Dominican order, probably at Leipzig, Tetzel was appointed inquisitor for Poland

www.britannica.com

Martin Luther - Reformation, Indulgences, Theology | Britannica

Martin Luther - Reformation, Indulgences, Theology: In the fall of 1517 an ostensibly innocuous event quickly made Luther’s name a household word in Germany. Irritated by Johann Tetzel, a Dominican friar who was reported to have preached to the faithful that the purchase of a letter of...

www.britannica.com

End of story.

 

[dms1972]

Isn't there some differences between Catholics on the importance of Mary in the plan of salvation?

 

[Daniel Peres]

Isn't there some differences between Catholics on the importance of Mary in the plan of salvation?

I know of no difference. She is the Queen Mother, the Theotokos (God bearer), the woman that willingly accepted the role that was asked of her by God, she was immaculately conceived, she was bodily assumed into Heaven. I know of no Catholics who would disagree with any of that. Do you? If they do disagree then they would be heretics. Nobody thinks she is divine.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Interestingly, I have never been able to find any evidence of Tetzel baking any pretzels. I certainly have found accusations, but I have never been able to find any writing by Tetzel promoting any pretzels.

Yeah, that's what they say. It's probably true, but since I don't really believe in 'Original Sin,' I have no further motivation to find out more than I already have and so, likewise, I have nothing to protest ...

Johann Tetzel - The Catholic Encyclopedia - StudyLight.org

First public antagonist of Luther, b. at Pirna in Meissen, 1465; d. at Leipzig, 11 Aug., 1519. He began his studies at Leipzig during the semester of 1482-83; was promoted to the baccalaureate in 1487, being the sixth in a class of fifty-six. Not long after he entered the Dominican Order, whether at

www.studylight.org

​

Wengert, Timothy J. "Martin Luther’s Preaching an Indulgence in January 1517." Lutheran Quarterly 29 (2015): 62-75.​

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The Catholic view on indulgences and how they work today

In 1517, the German theologian Martin Luther nailed 95 theses to Wittenberg’s Castle Church door, attacking indulgences, a Catholic practice that, according to church teachings, can reduce or eliminate punishment for sin. Starting in the 11th century, the church offered indulgences to those who...

news.yahoo.com

 

[Jonaitis]

This is one thing that made it impossible for me to be a Protestant.

In short, you chose otherwise based on how they represent others and not by what they actually teach? Is that really sound, though? Just asking, because truth does not lie in the fact that a certain group properly represents the other groups' views.

 

[Daniel Peres]

In short, you chose otherwise based on how they represent others and not by what they actually teach? Is that really sound, though? Just asking, because truth does not lie in the fact that a certain group properly represents the other groups' views.

1) I said this is “one” thing that affected me. Ultimately, it was the four Gospels that led me away from Protestantism, but that’s a whole a subject.

2) Jesus’ words have a big influence on me. He did say, “The Devil is the father of all lies.” Is it wise to ignore Jesus’ words? Now, I’m not saying Protestants are devils. What I am saying is that it is difficult to be sold a product when you know for a fact the salesman is lying to you. I personally don’t go out of my way to do business with dishonest people. And again, there are many Protestants that don’t engage in lying. However, the problem is rampant.

 

[Jonaitis]

1) I said this is “one” thing that affected me. Ultimately, it was the four Gospels that led me away from Protestantism, but that’s a whole a subject.

2) Jesus’ words have a big influence on me. He did say, “The Devil is the father of all lies.” Is it wise to ignore Jesus’ words? Now, I’m not saying Protestants are devils. What I am saying is that it is difficult to be sold a product when you know for a fact the salesman is lying to you. I personally don’t go out of my way to do business with dishonest people. And again, there are many Protestants that don’t engage in lying. However, the problem is rampant.

I think it goes both ways, too. Many Roman Catholics have misrepresented Protestantism in my own experience too. Many, like on this forum, think that sola fide means that there is no work that justifies one's faith.

 

[Daniel Peres]

I think it goes both ways, too. Many Roman Catholics have misrepresented Protestantism in my own experience too. Many, like on this forum, think that sola fide means that there is no work that justifies one's faith.

Blame that on the Antinomian Protestants confusing Catholics. Unlike the lies I’m talking about, the Catholics you are talking about are misinformed by the Antinomian Protestants. Now, it is true that many Catholics are not aware of how drastically different Protestants are. However, once they are corrected they stop their error.

 

[Jonaitis]

Blame that on the Antinomian Protestants confusing Catholics. Unlike the lies I’m talking about, the Catholics you are talking about are misinformed by the Antinomian Protestants. Now, it is true that many Catholics are not aware of how drastically different Protestants are. However, once they are corrected they stop their error.

Here's the bias. I found it.

 

[Margaret3110]

I have done something few Protestants and Catholics have done. I actually read Martin Luther’s 95 Thesis. The fact is that the majority of the thesis contains nonsensical straw man arguments. So therefore, the Protestant movement was formed on many lies. Even the selling of indulgences was not a Catholic doctrine. There may have been some evil priests, but that was not Catholic teaching.

If Protestants aren’t be taught these lies from the pulpit, then where are they getting them from. But more importantly, why do they double down even after being corrected?

Indulgences are still a thing though and being encouraged by the church (I know because I was Catholic) ... they just aren't allowed to *sell* them anymore. They are, in my opinion, very problematic.

 

[Daniel Peres]

Indulgences are still a thing though and being encouraged by the church (I know because I was Catholic) ... they just aren't allowed to *sell* them anymore. They are, in my opinion, very problematic.

1) Indulgences were never permitted to be sold. That’s the sin of simony.

2) Maybe indulgences aren’t good. You know one of Martin Luther’s arguments against indulgences was they maybe souls didn’t not want to leave purgatory too soon. Martin Luther pointed out that the purification might be joyous for souls. After all, after purgatory, a soul has infused righteousness. For some reason Protestants are satisfied with imputed righteousness.