Something that Can't Exist if YECs are right

Here is a question for any YECs (i.e. those who think the
Earth and/or universe is less than ten-thousand years old).

What is this?:

river.gif


Do keep in mind that there 1670 feet of sediment above this feature. And far worse for the YECs, almost a mile of sediments below it.

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ZiSunka

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A lot of science gets revised everyday. Today they think that this buried river valley is millions of years old, next week someone else will find evidence that it's only thousands of years old.

Remember when we were in school and they taught us that the Grand Canyon was eroded over millions of years? Now scientists are just as sure that a catastrophic event created it in a very short time, maybe over a period of weeks, not years.

So, what's fact today, is debunked tomorrow.

In 1840, Louis Agassiz was laughed out of a conference for suggesting the idea of that the earth had experienced an ice age. Now it is accepted as fact!
 
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TScott

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In 1840, Louis Agassiz was laughed out of a conference for suggesting the idea of that the earth had experienced an ice age. Now it is accepted as fact!

Good point Lambslove! And it is known that the last ice age subsided 10 thousand years ago.
 
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Originally posted by lambslove
A lot of science gets revised everyday. Today they think that this buried river valley is millions of years old, next week someone else will find evidence that it's only thousands of years old.

Go back and look at it. It is something that is 100% contrary to your dogma. YECs usually try to explain the layers of sedimentary rock on Earth as a result of the Noachian Deluge. This could NOT have formed from that.

You have two possible possiblities: the Noachian Deluge
laid a mile of sediment, it dried out, the river formed,
existed long enough to meander and make deposits, then 1670 feet of sediments were put on top of it. If you are going to use world-wide floods to "explain" this you are going to have to admit that at least two distinct world-wide flood occured.

Remember when we were in school and they taught us that the Grand Canyon was eroded over millions of years? Now scientists are just as sure that a catastrophic event created it in a very short time, maybe over a period of weeks, not years.

Your YEC sources have outright lied to you on this one.
I recall that from another discussion elsewhere. It turned
out that they, as usual, had quoted geologists out of
context. Geology does not think that the Grand Canyon
formed in weeks. Now it does think that a lava
dam the block the river's path broke down in rapid
fashion. The Canyon predated the formation of the lava dam. Of course if you think geologists thing the Grand Canyon formed in weeks at the most then it should not be too much to ask for a single citation to a paper in the geologic literature that makes this claim or to a single geology textbook that makes this claim, etc. Geologists do NOT think the Grand Canyon formed in weeks -- PERIOD!

So, what's fact today, is debunked tomorrow.
And will you provide any reason to even suspect that the mainstream science view is about to be debunked.
Of course anyone who follows pseudoscience will recognize that this pattern. These sort of argument is commonly used in the service of pseudoscience. I don't accept it from the advocates of "free energy"/perpetual motion devices so why should I accept it from creationists?

While strictly speaking everything in science is tenative -- hey maybe the Earth really is flat -- there are some things that are things that are more likely to be overthown than others. That the Earth is more than 6000 years old is about as a secure a conclusion as anything in science.


In 1840, Louis Agassiz was laughed out of a conference for suggesting the idea of that the earth had experienced an ice age. Now it is accepted as fact!

I will require a reference for this. In any event Agassiz's idea was VERY quickly established in mainstream geology regardless of any initial tempers.
 
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Satoshi

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Originally posted by hopeofglory10
I didnt say magic did it, did I? I said that GOD did it.

Both answers are equally specious. To simply posit "Goddidit" as an answer with no supporting evidence is as honest as saying that magic is responsible without supporting evidence.

Evolution is self-contradictory, not the Bible.

If evolution is so evidently wrong, then you ought to submit something to a scientific journal. You would do the world a great service, as well as become famous yourself. The only reason not to do this would be if you are actually lying about this.
 
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Originally posted by hopeofglory10

Evolution is self-contradictory, not the Bible.

and that is exactly how? If you have examples, step up to the plate, if you don't, ADMIT IT.



You know things like supposed "hoaxes" that have come out, and that creationists are so quick to jump on? Evolutionists are usually the ones that discover these errors! Not creationists! Evolutionists themselves admit their errors! An example of this is the Nebraska Man.

Nebraska Man was only in scientific literature for five years, and same scientists who "discovered him were also the same ones to find their error, and they even confessed their error in Science, which is one of the most prestigious scientific journals in the world.

Not only does this say alot for the character and integrity of many evolutionists, but it shows that evolution, rather than being self-contradictory, is like any true science, self-correcting.
 
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For there to be time and be able to derive time, Somone had to make it up first and measure it.
All of science was a guess at first.
Remember the story of the benzine ring the "scientist" received the information in a dream.
Carbon dating is so rarely accurate that it is almost usless. Remember the story of the 25,000 year old cat that was dug up in a suburban back yard just 18 inches from the surface.

I am not sure that any science is truly measurable without faith that our therory is correct. Quantum physics my greatist joy in science is speculative to say the least. Cold fusion, possible? mayme maybe not let us continually prove to our selves not to anyone else except that we try our best to lead a good life.

When you are looking for something then, when you find it, it is always in the last place that you looked.

When there is a personal experience no rational explanation is necessary.

James
servant to all
 
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lucaspa

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30th April 2002 at 01:25 PM hopeofglory10 said this in Post #4

Your image didn't display on my screen, but keeping in mind that God can make anything appear however old He wants it to be (was Adam a baby when he was created ?) I don't think you have any historical basis to think the earth is older than say, 4 or 5 thousand years old.

From a scientific standpoint, you are correct.  However, the real refutation of this comes from Christian theology, not science.  This is called the Oomphalos argument from the book by that name written by Paul Gosse.

In 1844 a pamphlet entitled Vestiges of the Natural History of Creation, espousing an evolutionary viewpoint, was published.  In response Philip Gosse, an minister in the Fundamentalist group called the Plymouth Brethren, wrote Oomphalos, published in 1857.  In it Gosse made the first written argument that creation only LOOKS old.  In it, Gosse even argued that Adam and Eve had navels because that is what one would expect in God-created creatures.
  Gosse expected Oomphalos to be attacked by scientists.  What he should have expected, but didn't, was the denunciation by the religious community.  Asked to write a review of Oomphalos, his friend Charles Kinglsey, a minister and author of Westward Ho! refused and wrote the following letter to Gosse.
"You have given the 'vestiges of creation theory' [the pamphlet discussed above] the best shove forward which it has ever had. I have a special dislike for that book; but, honestly, I felt my heart melting towards it as I read Oomphalos.  Shall I tell you the truth?  It is best.  Your book is the first that ever made me doubt the doctrine of absolute creation, and I fear it will make hundreds doso.  Your book tends to prove this - that if we accept the fact of absolute creation, God becomes God-the-Sometime-Deceiver.  I do not mean merely in the case of fossils which pretend to be the bones of dead animals; but in ...your newly created Adam's navel, you make God tell a lie.  It is not my reason, by my conscience which revolts here ... I cannot ...believe that God has written on the rocks one enormous and superfluous lie for al mankind.  To this painful dilemma you have brought me, and will, I fear, bring hundreds.  It will not make me throw away my Bible.  I trust and hope. I know in whom I have believed, and can trust Him to bring my faith safe through this puzzle, as He has through others; but for the young I do fear.  I would not for a thousand pundsput your book into my children's hands."  Garret Hardin, ""Scientific Creationism'" - Marketing Deception as Truth" in Science and Creationism edited by Ashley Montagu, 1982.
 
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lucaspa

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Today at 11:27 AM ancientofdays33 said this in Post #17

For there to be time and be able to derive time, Somone had to make it up first and measure it.
All of science was a guess at first.
Remember the story of the benzine ring the "scientist" received the information in a dream.
...
When there is a personal experience no rational explanation is necessary.

James
servant to all

James, the evidence posted is not a refutation of the existence of God, but only of YEC.  It is the tragedy of creationism that you have tied the existence of God to a particular mechanism of creation.  If that mechanism of creation (YEC) is wrong, you think God doesn't exist.

The river bed couldn't have been deposited by the world-wide Flood necessary to YEC.  Therefore a literalistic reading of Genesis 1-8 is wrong.  That's all that is at issue here.

No one is arguing that you have personal experience that convinces you that God exists.  What God has told you in His Creation, however, is that He didn't create by YEC. 
 
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