something that bothers me...

[JohnMarsten]

About 11 years ago I met a few latter day saints.

The saints believe in some spirit worlds and stuff, when I asked them about a biblical reference they came up with this

1 Pet 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1 Pet 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Maybe some of you have some thoughts on it... this is naturally not salvational question but still, I was never able to come up with a satisfying answer to it...

 

[k4c]

About 11 years ago I met a few latter day saints.

The saints believe in some spirit worlds and stuff, when I asked them about a biblical reference they came up with this

1 Pet 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1 Pet 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Maybe some of you have some thoughts on it... this is naturally not salvational question but still, I was never able to come up with a satisfying answer to it...

Lost people are in spiritual prisons, they are dead to God and helpless. Jesus talks about people who He set free from their bondage to sin and spiritual death.

John 8:32 "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

John 8:36 "Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

That same Spirit, that rasied Jesus to life, is the same Spirit that worked through and inspired Noah to preach to the spirits in prison in his day. Listen to how Jesus says, "The Spirit of the Lord is on Me" He goes on to say how this Spirit, which was the same Spirit working through Noah to set the spirits free in his day, also set spirits free in in Jesus' day.

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because I am marked out by him to give good news to the poor; he has sent me to make well those who are broken-hearted; to say that the prisoners will be let go, and the blind will see, and to make the wounded free from their chains.

 

[JohnMarsten]

Lost people are in spiritual prisons, they are dead to God and helpless. Jesus talks about people who He set free from their bondage to sin and spiritual death.

John 8:32 "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

John 8:36 "Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

That same Spirit, that rasied Jesus to life, is the same Spirit that worked through and inspired Noah to preach to the spirits in prison in his day. Listen to how Jesus says, "The Spirit of the Lord is on Me" He goes on to say how this Spirit, which was the same Spirit working through Noah to set the spirits free in his day, also set spirits free in in Jesus' day.

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because I am marked out by him to give good news to the poor; he has sent me to make well those who are broken-hearted; to say that the prisoners will be let go, and the blind will see, and to make the wounded free from their chains.

so you mean that the spirits in prision and the once that were disobedient are two different cases??

 

[E.T.Elijah]

Found this...just one line of thinking

1 Peter 3:18:
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him. (NASB)
There is a common misunderstanding of this passage by many Christians today. Lets examine how most people make this passage say:
“While the body of Jesus was dead, His soul went down to hell (or limbo) and preached the good news of salvation to the spirits of the dead people who were destroyed at the time of the flood in order to give them a second chance to be saved.”
What is interesting to know is that in order for this concept to be true certain words and ideas must be interjected. Note what the passage does not say:
Jesus’ soul went to hell, Hell and soul is not used in the original.
It does not say He preached the “good news”
It also does not say the spirits He preached to are dead people.
Understanding the passage in this way also poses some serious theological problems. Notice Hebrews 9:27 : And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment, and Ecclesiastes 9:5: For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Theses passages make it clear that after death there is no second chance. Also Genesis 6:5 tells us: And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. If mankind would not listen to the preaching of Noah aided by the Holy Spirit what makes anyone think that they would listen to Jesus?
Lets examine the passages to see what the meaning is.
1 Peter 3:18-For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit. (NASB)
If we compare this verse with 1 Corinthians15:42-44: So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body (NASB). We can easily gather that 1 Peter 3:18 is saying that Jesus as a human being was put to death and raised (quickened) in the spirit, that is with a new spiritual body. Not subject to mortality, and weakness. V. 18 is speaking about the physical death and resurrection of Jesus.
1 Peter 3:19:in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, (NASB)
Does this verse say that Jesus was dead when he preached to the spirits in prison? According to what we just studied the answer is no! V.18 tells us He was put to death in the flesh but raised in the spirit. V.19 is a continuationof v. 18 saying that it is in this condition (in His new spiritual body) Jesus preached to the spirits in prison. So his preaching took place after His resurrection.
Where did Jesus go to preach?
To answer that it is necessary to look at the word went (v.19) it is from the Greek word poreuomai which can be used to explain went in a horizontal, up or down direction. In this verse alone it does not indicate what direction Jesus went, so it can not be assumed He went down. In fact the context of the passages we are studying suggests He went up. Notice v. 21 and 22:… “through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, having gone(poreuomai) into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him“. (NASB) The only direction suggested is that Jesus went is up.
Who are the spirits in prison?
In the OT and The NT many times spirits are referred to as angels, either good or evil here are just a few examples:
Passage Hebrews 1:14:“Are they not all ministering spirits [good angels], sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?” (NASB)
2 Chronicles 18:18-22:“Micaiah said, Therefore, hear the word of the LORD. I saw the LORD sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing on His right and on His left. The LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab king of Israel to go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?' And one said this while another said that. Then a spirit [evil angel] came forward and stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.' And the LORD said to him, 'How?' He said, 'I will go and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' Then He said, 'You are to entice him and prevail also. Go and do so.' Now therefore, behold, the LORD has put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of these your prophets, for the LORD has proclaimed disaster against you."(NASB)
Acts 19:15:“And the evil spirit [angel] answered and said to them, I recognize Jesus, and I know about Paul, but who are you?”(NASB)
Luke 10:20:"Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits [evil angels] are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven.”(NASB)
Are evil spirits spoken of as being in prison? Lets compare some other texts.
Jude 1:6:“And angels [evil] who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode [heaven], He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day” (NASB)
2 Peter 2:4-5:“For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell [Gr. tartaroo from tartaros a place of incarceration] and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly.” (NASB)
It should be easy now to conclude that: Jesus dies and was resurrected. He goes up to Heaven and as He is ascending He is making a proclamation to the evil angels (spirits) who are in prison (bondage) of His victory over them.
Lets notice the last texts
1 Peter 3:21-22:
“…through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.”
What does it mean “been subjected to Him?” Lets put it this way: By his sin, Adam forfeited his right to rule this earth to Satan. Adam and the human race became the slave or prisoner of Satan (see Romans 6:16). Jesus by His death and Resurrection made the angels, and authorities, and powers subject to Him! Jesus is proclaiming His victory over these evil powers. Jesus spoke of this in His Ministry:
Matthew 12:28-29:
"But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can anyone enter the strong man's house and carry off his property, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house.” (NASB)

John 12:30-31:
“Jesus answered and said, This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sakes. Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.”(NASB)
Paul wrote also in:
Romans 8:38-39:
For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (NASB)

 

[k4c]

so you mean that the spirits in prision and the once that were disobedient are two different cases??

Their blind disobedience to the warnings of God is proof they are spirits in prison.

 

[Section10]

John, whenever it takes that much literature to explain a brief passage of Scripture it is time to get suspicious. I spent a winter talking regularly with a SDA and he just about buried me with page after page of rhetoric. (He was a pretty nice guy, though.) It takes a lot of work and dedication to support the SDA position.

 

[k4c]

John, whenever it takes that much literature to explain a brief passage of Scripture it is time to get suspicious. I spent a winter talking regularly with a SDA and he just about buried me with page after page of rhetoric. (He was a pretty nice guy, though.) It takes a lot of work and dedication to support the SDA position.

Many of the beliefs today have their roots in paganism. Building a doctirne is like standing up dominos. If it's a doctrine that has it's roots in paganism you have knock down each domino in order to bring people to the truth. This is one of the problems with learning a truth. A lot of times many of your dominos that support what you believe begin to fall and people are not willing to go through that process.

 

[E.T.Elijah]

Not to mention it is also suspect when one speaks of lengthy explanations being a reason to doubt them and placing a backhanded compliment about someones beliefs, but then not offering up any explanations of their own about said passage...just saying

 

[k4c]

Not to mention it is also suspect when one speaks of lengthy explanations being a reason to doubt them and placing a backhanded compliment about someones beliefs, but then not offering up any explanations of their own about said passage...just saying

You speak with wisdom...

 

[JohnMarsten]

Not to mention it is also suspect when one speaks of lengthy explanations being a reason to doubt them and placing a backhanded compliment about someones beliefs, but then not offering up any explanations of their own about said passage...just saying

I cant really follow you here.

 

[E.T.Elijah]

Sorry the post was more for Section10 who posted nothing to answer the question you posed and posted just to throw doubt on anything that an SDA would post.

 

[stinsonmarri]

About 11 years ago I met a few latter day saints.

The saints believe in some spirit worlds and stuff, when I asked them about a biblical reference they came up with this

1 Pet 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1 Pet 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Maybe some of you have some thoughts on it... this is naturally not salvational question but still, I was never able to come up with a satisfying answer to it...

JohnMarsten;

Notice the Spirit is cap which means the Holy Spirit which energize Yashuah for His death on the cross. All this is saying that the Holy Spirit preaced to the minds (spirit) of men prisoned by sin during Noah's day but they would not listen. Only Noah his wife, son and their wives went into the ark because they was quicken by the Holy Spirit. Remember the dead knows nothing because their memory/mind (spirit) perish Eccl 9: 5, 6

My sister was a former Latter Day Saint and she had the same problem with these texts. Grew up a SDA from childhood but looking for Elohim and realize They were already close by.

Happy Sabbath,
stinsonmarri

 

[Section10]

And my post was for JohnMarsten. The SDA view of this verse has been given and if you are SDA that will suffice, but if you are not you might decide to look elsewhere for an answer. It really doesn't depend so much on scripture, but on where your allegiance happens to be. One's truth is a choice just as much as one's church.

 

[stinsonmarri]

And my post was for JohnMarsten. The SDA view of this verse has been given and if you are SDA that will suffice, but if you are not you might decide to look elsewhere for an answer. It really doesn't depend so much on scripture, but on where your allegiance happens to be. One's truth is a choice just as much as one's church.

Section10:​

It is not SDA view or any other church it is what the Bible says that is truth. The Bible does not need to be interpreted but understood. Words must be define from the original language that it was written and not our English language with it many shades of meanings. The spirit that Paul was speaking of was our thought process or memory but the Greeks did not understand that the Holy Spirit is a separate Holy Being due to their paganistic thoughts and philosophy. However the Hebrew language usedRûach frequently referring to the Holy Spirit but never was the word used for manto mean that man is a superior force or Being having existence apart from our physical bodies! Is 63:10.

The pneuma comes from pneō whichmeans “to blow,” or “to breathe.” There also is nothing basically in the word pneuma that denotes some type of special or superior force that exists in man that is capable of some type of conscious existence apart from the body. The NT does not at all states that man perceives this concept or thought. In certain Scriptures pneuma does states man's mood, attitude, and our various types of feeling. Rom 8:15; 1 Cor 4:21; 2 Ti 1:7; 1 John 4:6 ​

The Bible makes it perfectly clear that the dead knows nothing and even our memory which our capability to think perish. So if our thought process dies what exists because the spirit or breath returns to Elohim? Here is what the wisest man on earth declared:​

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion forever in any thing that is done under the sun. Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for Elohim now accepteth thy works. Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment. Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun. Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. Eccl 9:5-10 ​

This was not a trick question but a fact that the Holy Spirit revised Yashua to face Calvary as He tried to wake the lost souls that died during the flood. These souls became prison to sin which lead to their death by the flood. This show that the Holy Spirit has always dwell with men to lead them back to the Father if they choose to obey but it is left up to us to choose! But those in the last days will be release from both sin and the prison of death to be revived again when the Savior returns! Hallelu-Yah!!!!!​

Happy Sabbath,​

stinsonmarri

 

[Section10]

There are a couple thousand Christian churches in the US with widely different understandings of the Bible. I doubt any of them perceive themselves to be in opposition to the word of God. I believe scripture was written on purpose for this. We all find whatever we are looking for regardless of our doctrines or desires. Any group that sees itself as having a self-defining understanding of God's word will always have an uphill battle to prove it to the rest of us. To place the rest of Christianity outside of God's will because it violates your particular version of truth is a vain assumption regardless of how many Bible verses you may use. It's not about the Bible; it's about you.....and all of us. We are God's letters and we are his truth.
"Letters were written so men could be free, but men make themselves slaves of the letters."

 

[JohnMarsten]

There are a couple thousand Christian churches in the US with widely different understandings of the Bible. I doubt any of them perceive themselves to be in opposition to the word of God. I believe scripture was written on purpose for this. We all find whatever we are looking for regardless of our doctrines or desires. Any group that sees itself as having a self-defining understanding of God's word will always have an uphill battle to prove it to the rest of us. To place the rest of Christianity outside of God's will because it violates your particular version of truth is a vain assumption regardless of how many Bible verses you may use. It's not about the Bible; it's about you.....and all of us. We are God's letters and we are his truth.
"Letters were written so men could be free, but men make themselves slaves of the letters."

well-said...

 

[JohnMarsten]

And my post was for JohnMarsten. The SDA view of this verse has been given and if you are SDA that will suffice, but if you are not you might decide to look elsewhere for an answer. It really doesn't depend so much on scripture, but on where your allegiance happens to be. One's truth is a choice just as much as one's church.

First of all I am not looking for a church who has the right position/answer to this very topic, there simply is no one that gets it right all time, something that is good here will be bad elsewhere and vice versa.

Lets take the alcohol question again, personally I do believe that alcohol does a lot of harm and might become sin when abused. BUT we cannot say that drinking alcohol is sin in general, that would stand in direct contradiction to plain bible teachings.

On the other hand, however, an organisation that demonizes alcohol in general and consists of abstinent members may be very attractive to those who had some bad experience with it and really do desire a congregation that is against its consumption.

In this regard you may be right that people need to find a place which fits to them and not make themselves fit.

The catholic church teaches that priest cant have no wives. Well, you will not find that in the bible, but its the rule, so if somebody wants both a wife and becoming a priest he will face a tremendous battle of conscience, which to choose?? protestant pastors wont have the same problem they simply get married and everything is cool. In the catholic church it seems that no man can serve two masters, you can either serve God or your wife, (fortunately the bible speaks otherwise).

 

[E.T.Elijah]

Well Section10, just to be clear, I typed the passage into google and found 10 explanations of that passage. 4 gave the same basic view that I posted and only 1 was SDA. Of the other 5, 2 explained it similar to k4c, neither being SDA websites, and the other 3 differed altogether in their explanations. So our answers were general about the texts, not some SDA rhetoric as you call it. Sometimes, when people answer questions it has nothing to do with some conspiracy to indoctrinate but a personal study of the texts. John has frequented these forums for a while, as well as was raised SDA, at least that is what I have gathered from his past posts. I don't think his topic was posted for just an "SDA" view but more as a general inquiry to get insight from other Christians as to how the passage could be explained.

 

[stinsonmarri]

Lets take the alcohol question again, personally I do believe that alcohol does a lot of harm and might become sin when abused. BUT we cannot say that drinking alcohol is sin in general, that would stand in direct contradiction to plain bible teachings.

On the other hand, however, an organisation that demonizes alcohol in general and consists of abstinent members may be very attractive to those who had some bad experience with it and really do desire a congregation that is against its consumption.

JohnMarsten​

Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise. Pro 20:1​

They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. Pro 23:30-32​

Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted. ​

Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.

Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more. Open thy mouth for the dumb in the cause of all such as are appointed to destruction. Pro 31:5-7 ​

For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: 1Pe 4:3​

But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 1Co 5:11 ​

I provided these Scriptures to show that drinking the wrong wine (fermented) is not the wine known as new wine or grape juice. What has been the problem of the translators is the deception in many cases. Even with the word drunkard from the Greek that does not mean to get drunk instead it means intoxication or poison. When you drink strong drink and fermented wine you will pay and it is a sin. It is not how much it is when it turns from grape juice and ferments it become poisonous in the blood and damages the brain.​

Other ministers and churches do not want this to be known and if they are true Bible scholar they know Hebrew and Greek.

Finally you are not going to drink fermented wine in the New Jerusalem so it seem practical to prepare not to drink now!​

Blessings,​

stinsonmarri

 

[JohnMarsten]

Thank you very much stinsonmarri

Of course we dont know what we are going to drink in the New Jerusalem, I dont know it, you cannot possibly know, thats reasonable IMO. No offence btw...

As far as your quotes are concerned, well... I know that SDA will fervently come up the wine/grape juice thing, but that does not convince me at all, I believe it is a form of giving meaning to something that suits ones purposes, nothing more.

Why do I believe this way?

First of all homosexuals were to be killed, as were the drunkards, right?? both things were bad. God obviously forbade the homosexual act.

Now what about the lazy drunkard? He commanded to have him killed even his parents should do so, in order to set an example for others, that means to me that laziness accompanied with alcohol addiction is a very bad thing and shouldnt be endorsed at all. But then we will not find a single verse in the bible that would forbid alcohol in general, What you quote from solomon is mere advice. Wine can be a mocker indeed and believe it or not, I dont advocate drinking wine at all, it is a mans choice not a command from God not to do so...

If God had endorsed prohibition he would have clearly stated it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

on the contrary

Tithes (deuteronomy 14)


22 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year. 23 Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and olive oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always. 24 But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the LORD your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the LORD will choose to put his Name is so far away), 25 then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the LORD your God will choose. 26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice. 27 And do not neglect the Levites living in your towns, for they have no allotment or inheritance of their own. 28 At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year’s produce and store it in your towns, 29 so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the foreigners, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, and so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands.



Here you have it! Not only could/should they use tithes to buy stuff (whatever they wished) but they were strictly commanded to do so.


Thats the word of the Most High God! No one can put that asunder, definitely no grape juice theory/strategy.


What do I learn from that? The pure and simple fact that alcohol was not forbidden in the Old Testament times, it was Ok, as long as the occasion was Ok, I guess that included weddings and stuff.


What do I also learn from that? Its the fact that we cannot come up with the idea that abstinence is a command from God, or that its strictly biblical (as it is not and I think I have proven that from the word/mouth of God), everything else would be a man made rule or even superstition.

As an advice stinsonmarri, I would suggest and even agree with the fact that alcohol is not a good thing when abused and that one is even on the much safer side if abstinent (theoretically), however, as you can see from my bible quote alcohol had also a ceremonial funtion as it was commanded by God to use even thithes to buy some liquor and have fun! Personally I believe that the Lords supper as commanded by Jesus included wine (can be proven but thats not the point here...)


No offence and may God bless you and provide you wisdom. What is more, these bible quote of mine is not an excuse for drinking as this is certainly not Gods will, personally I try to drink on very few occasions, and based on previous experience only with designated people, if there are any...


We just cannot expect people to stop drinking because we say so, or EGW says so... let the Word of God be our Guide...

JohnMarsten​

Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise. Pro 20:1​

They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. Pro 23:30-32​

Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted. ​

Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.

Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more. Open thy mouth for the dumb in the cause of all such as are appointed to destruction. Pro 31:5-7 ​

For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: 1Pe 4:3​

But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 1Co 5:11 ​

I provided these Scriptures to show that drinking the wrong wine (fermented) is not the wine known as new wine or grape juice. What has been the problem of the translators is the deception in many cases. Even with the word drunkard from the Greek that does not mean to get drunk instead it means intoxication or poison. When you drink strong drink and fermented wine you will pay and it is a sin. It is not how much it is when it turns from grape juice and ferments it become poisonous in the blood and damages the brain.​

Other ministers and churches do not want this to be known and if they are true Bible scholar they know Hebrew and Greek.

Finally you are not going to drink fermented wine in the New Jerusalem so it seem practical to prepare not to drink now!​

Blessings,​

stinsonmarri