Something that blew my mind...

[alexamasan]

So I went to sabbath school with some of my friends at their church and we were discussing what God meant to us individually. One of my friends pointed out something that really got everyone thinking.

If God did not bring us to heaven if we believed, or if we didn't go to hell if we didn't believe, would we still have faith. I know this is a big what if scenario, but what I think the real underlying question is if real reason why we have faith is the fear of hell or the reward of heaven? and not simply because he is our God. I don't know about you guys, but that took me away. If there was no consequence for not believing and no reward for believing, I really think that I wouldn't believe anymore. Sure, we should believe, but would you???

 

[aiki]

I don't know about you guys, but that took me away. If there was no consequence for not believing and no reward for believing, I really think that I wouldn't believe anymore. Sure, we should believe, but would you???

I think this post is rather sad. I don't mean this sarcastically. I mean it is actually saddening to me to consider the view of God out of which the above remarks arise.

Heaven is heaven because God is there; He is what makes Heaven the wonderful place that it is. The reward of Heaven is God Himself. To separate the two things, God and Heaven, is to misunderstand completely the nature of what God offers when He offers us eternal life in Heaven. When God offers us eternal life He is offering us a person: Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:11-12
11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

John 3:36
36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Jesus Christ is the human face of God. He is God in the flesh. And when we accept him as our Lord and trust him to be our Saviour, we obtain life eternal. It is the life of Christ himself imparted to us through the Holy Spirit, that gains for us an eternity in Heaven with God the Father.

Galatians 2:20
20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

Romans 8:1-2
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

God does reward us for our faith in Him -- with Himself. A particular heavenly location filled with clouds and harps and gold-plated mansions isn't the real inducement God gives us to walk with Him, but His own awesome, holy fellowship. The idea that I would only believe in God because He rewards me with Heaven is to misunderstand that He is Heaven.

King David understood this well:

Psalms 73:25-26
25 Whom have I in heaven but You? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee.
26 My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever.

God makes no bones about the good things that come out of entering into fellowship with Him, however. C.S. Lewis called them God's "unblushing promises." God is unabashedly appealing to our God-given desire for self-gratification in order to motivate us into a relationship with Him. This isn't a bad thing; it is simply dealing with us according to our nature.

Selah.

 

[razeontherock]

Along the same lines but from a different angle:

yes, it is mind-blowing to consider that we can enter into eternal Life NOW!

 

[oi_antz]

So I went to sabbath school with some of my friends at their church and we were discussing what God meant to us individually. One of my friends pointed out something that really got everyone thinking.

If God did not bring us to heaven if we believed, or if we didn't go to hell if we didn't believe, would we still have faith. I know this is a big what if scenario, but what I think the real underlying question is if real reason why we have faith is the fear of hell or the reward of heaven? and not simply because he is our God. I don't know about you guys, but that took me away. If there was no consequence for not believing and no reward for believing, I really think that I wouldn't believe anymore. Sure, we should believe, but would you???

Abraham had faith and this was before Moses wrote the initial book of scriptures.

 

[bling]

The Christian God is using every means possible to try and get willing individuals to accept His Love.
Heaven and hell are strong motivators, but there is also the conscience that burdens us with the fact that our actions have hurt others. Relieving that mental burden can lead one to seek God.

 

[salida]

Lets ask ourselves what is faith?
Heb 11:1

God determines what faith is. You brought up something that isn't going to exist.

And its not just about going to heaven and staying out of hell. Its about curing a spiritual disease that mankind has-God won't force people to take this cure. Just like a doctor won't force a patient to take this one cure that can save them physically.

Are you a good person? www.livingwaters.com/good/

 

[solarwave]

aiki: Im not sure what the point is that you are making. Do you mean there is no life after death or that eternal life starts on earth?

I guess a connected question is, why believe if there is no heaven or hell?

 

[aiki]

aiki: Im not sure what the point is that you are making. Do you mean there is no life after death or that eternal life starts on earth?

I guess a connected question is, why believe if there is no heaven or hell?

LOL! And here I thought I was crystal clear. Ah, well...

What did I write that makes you think I believe eternal life starts on earth or that there is no life after death?

Your last question is what I attempted to answer in my first post!

I believe in God first and foremost because of who He is, not because I may suffer in hell or obtain reward in Heaven. Those whose primary motivation for believing in God are not connected to God Himself misunderstand fundamentally what being a Christian is all about. And when such people get to Heaven expecting that the place rather than person of God will be the fulfillment of all their efforts of faith, they will discover, perhaps to their great horror, that heaven is all about God, not gold-paved roads, or bejeweled crowns and mansions, or reunions with friends and family.

God intends that the gift of salvation be Himself in the person of Christ, not eternal life and heaven by and by. Eternal life is not a thing separate from God; it is God Himself.

Am I any clearer yet?

Selah.

 

[solarwave]

I get what you are saying now, but what if the gift of Jesus is only for while we are alive then?

 

[drich0150]

So I went to sabbath school with some of my friends at their church and we were discussing what God meant to us individually. One of my friends pointed out something that really got everyone thinking.

If God did not bring us to heaven if we believed, or if we didn't go to hell if we didn't believe, would we still have faith. I know this is a big what if scenario, but what I think the real underlying question is if real reason why we have faith is the fear of hell or the reward of heaven? and not simply because he is our God. I don't know about you guys, but that took me away. If there was no consequence for not believing and no reward for believing, I really think that I wouldn't believe anymore. Sure, we should believe, but would you???

If you wish to blow it further, here is a question i sometimes ask people to help them determine if their desire for Heaven is in it's proper place..

If For some reason the description for Heaven and Hell were some how reversed, and Heaven was a Fiery pit, but God lived there, and Hell was what we know to be paradise, but completely absent of God, would you still want to Goto Heaven? (The Fiery pit)

This question not only separates those who want heaven because they fear Hell it tests the love/faith by making the one who fears hell, to face what they fear in order to full fill their Love.

Only those who Love God above and beyond themselves and their sense of self preservation, are even close to worthy of being with Him.. If We Love God as we have been commanded with all of our Hearts, Mind, Spirit and Strength, then we know it is not the surroundings that Make heaven Heaven, it is the presents of God, Our love for Him, and in turn His love for us that makes Heaven, Heaven.. Not the stuff that "heaven" represents. If you truly Love someone, then "stuff" be damned, you love them and will live wherever they are.

Bottom line Heaven and Hell is about Love for God. Either you love Him and want to spend an eternity with your Heavenly Father or you do not.

 

[Key]

So I went to sabbath school with some of my friends at their church and we were discussing what God meant to us individually. One of my friends pointed out something that really got everyone thinking.

If God did not bring us to heaven if we believed, or if we didn't go to hell if we didn't believe, would we still have faith. I know this is a big what if scenario, but what I think the real underlying question is if real reason why we have faith is the fear of hell or the reward of heaven? and not simply because he is our God. I don't know about you guys, but that took me away. If there was no consequence for not believing and no reward for believing, I really think that I wouldn't believe anymore. Sure, we should believe, but would you???

I am sure some would leave the faith, as I have seen way to many "turn or burn" to think the fear of hell is not use to convert people and if that fear was removed many would gladly walk away and I would not blame them.

 

[aiki]

I get what you are saying now, but what if the gift of Jesus is only for while we are alive then?

The life of Christ that is fused into us by God's Spirit is a spiritual thing. As Paul the apostle wrote,

Galatians 2:20
20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

2 Corinthians 5:17
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Romans 13:14
14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.

Galatians 3:26-27
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

When one is saved, one is "clothed" in Christ. We put on his righteousness and in so doing become acceptable to God. This is a permanent change in one's spiritual state; it cannot be undone. No one may stand in God's holy presence without the covering of Christ's perfect righteousness upon them. This is as true in eternity as it is now.


Selah.

 

[solarwave]

If For some reason the description for Heaven and Hell were some how reversed, and Heaven was a Fiery pit, but God lived there, and Hell was what we know to be paradise, but completely absent of God, would you still want to Goto Heaven? (The Fiery pit)

This question not only separates those who want heaven because they fear Hell it tests the love/faith by making the one who fears hell, to face what they fear in order to full fill their Love.

Only those who Love God above and beyond themselves and their sense of self preservation, are even close to worthy of being with Him.. If We Love God as we have been commanded with all of our Hearts, Mind, Spirit and Strength, then we know it is not the surroundings that Make heaven Heaven, it is the presents of God, Our love for Him, and in turn His love for us that makes Heaven, Heaven.. Not the stuff that "heaven" represents. If you truly Love someone, then "stuff" be damned, you love them and will live wherever they are.

Bottom line Heaven and Hell is about Love for God. Either you love Him and want to spend an eternity with your Heavenly Father or you do not.

I think it is easy to say you would follow God to hell when you know it isn't true.

Do you you the full firey torture of hell with God and the full happiness of heaven? Because for me it is not the environment (fire/gold) but what those enviroments because for our wellbeing (our minds being destoryed by the pain of hell or pure joy of heaven).

So if heaven has the affects of heaven (joy and happiness) without God and hell has its affects (endless pain) with God, it makes the choice much harder. One could even say God is the devil if He makes His creatures choose between Him and eternal happiness.

But maybe I am taking you point beyond what you were trying to say, but I did want to clarify what you were ment.

 

[zaksmummy]

Jews believe in God and many of them dont believe in an afterlife.

 

[Emmy]

Dear alexamasan. God is Love, and God wants our love freely given. Jesus told us in Matthew, the first Commandment is: Love the Lord our God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds. The second Commandment is like it: love our neighbour as ourselves. Then Jesus finishes: " On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." God is Love, Jesus died out of love for us, He is our Saviour, and He reconciled us to God. Jesus told us again and again: " Repent" exchange our selfish and unloving characters into Loving God with all our beings, and loving our neighbour, ( all others, friend or foe) as we love ourselves. This is not easy for us, but it can be done. We have years to learn, we have Jesus who will give us His Love and Joy to share with each other. And Jesus taught us to pray: Father forgive us our sins as we will forgive those who sin against us." Every time we stumble or even fail, just get up, ask seriously for forgiveness, and try, try again. A good start is: treat all we know or meet, as we would like to be treated: kindly and considerrate, not always insist on our rights. We will find that in time our life becomes filled with Joy and loving kindness. We will never find out, until we try for ourselves. I say this humbly and with love, alexamasan. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[drich0150]

I think it is easy to say you would follow God to hell when you know it isn't true.

Do you you the full fiery torture of hell with God and the full happiness of heaven? Because for me it is not the environment (fire/gold) but what those environments because for our wellbeing (our minds being destroyed by the pain of hell or pure joy of heaven).

So if heaven has the affects of heaven (joy and happiness) without God and hell has its affects (endless pain) with God, it makes the choice much harder. One could even say God is the devil if He makes His creatures choose between Him and eternal happiness.

But maybe I am taking you point beyond what you were trying to say, but I did want to clarify what you were meant.

I appreciate the effort, but It seems your are emphasizing the attributes of heaven itself bring Joy and happiness, and Hell bring torment and suffering. My statement's intent was to separate these values from the physical/spiritual places, and place Joy/torment one may experience in the after life with one's proximity to God. The venue in which one is with God should truly be of little concern. (That is To someone who loves God, and not just what God can provide in the way of eternal reward.) This is what ultimately separates Islam from Christianity. (In that Islam teaches a doctrine of reward for services rendered, and Christianity Teaches a Doctrine of Grace, forgiveness and undeserved giving for all the unworthy who seek a relationship with God.)

That is why I teach paradise with out God, is indeed Hell even for those who would think they could enjoy an eternity in paradise without God. In turn Fire or any or all of the negative associated with Hell can be Heaven if God were there.

Heaven/Hell as a destination should not be the focal point of the true Christian's after life. It should be spending eternity with the one your love with All of your Heart, Mind, Spirit and Strength, no matter what that may look like from this side of eternity.

 

[drich0150]

Jews believe in God and many of them dont believe in an afterlife.

They don't have to. Belief or non belief does not dictate reality or truth.

 

[solarwave]

I appreciate the effort, but It seems your are emphasizing the attributes of heaven itself bring Joy and happiness, and Hell bring torment and suffering. My statement's intent was to separate these values from the physical/spiritual places, and place Joy/torment one may experience in the after life with one's proximity to God. The venue in which one is with God should truly be of little concern. (That is To someone who loves God, and not just what God can provide in the way of eternal reward.) This is what ultimately separates Islam from Christianity. (In that Islam teaches a doctrine of reward for services rendered, and Christianity Teaches a Doctrine of Grace, forgiveness and undeserved giving for all the unworthy who seek a relationship with God.)

That is why I teach paradise with out God, is indeed Hell even for those who would think they could enjoy an eternity in paradise without God. In turn Fire or any or all of the negative associated with Hell can be Heaven if God were there.

Heaven/Hell as a destination should not be the focal point of the true Christian's after life. It should be spending eternity with the one your love with All of your Heart, Mind, Spirit and Strength, no matter what that may look like from this side of eternity.

I totally agree. Material worth will become as nothing when we see God face to face, and material worth will never make up a fraction of life without God.

But I also think it is obvious that Christians would choose a hell without pain and be with God in joy but without rewards, over heaven with rewards but without God.

God is good, but I think the joy or heaven and fear of a painful hell does drive alot of faith in God, reguardless of the person of God. This is assuming the logical possibility of the joy of heaven being separated from the person of God.

Im not sure exactly what my point is, but I can say that I have a lower level of faith recently and so heaven (joy with God not rewards) and hell (whatever it is) does have a strong influence over me.